General Election TV debates

SafeSurfer wrote: »

You are being ridiculous now Frankie. Describing a person as power hungry even though they ruled out SF as a partner therefore narrowing their path to power.

If the Northern Ireland conflict wasn’t a power struggle what was it and is it?

Power hungry doesn't necessarily imply intelligence. He wouldn't be the first to allow the eye on the prize to be blinded and crash in flames.

blanch152

McMurphy wrote: »

16-1 I think on Paddy Power.

Nice wedge of cash there for a betting man.

Edit, 6 - 1, 16-1 on a ff minority govt which I think may be ultimately where we're headed.

I got in with a €20 bet on FF/SF at 12/1.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Power hungry doesn't necessarily imply intelligence. He wouldn't be the first to allow the eye on the prize to be blinded and crash in flames.

Obfuscate much?

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Obfuscate much?

You said he has narrowed his path to power, I agree.

He hasn't the smarts to see that. Doesn't in my opinion mean he isn't 'power hungry'.

McMurphy

blanch152 wrote: »

I got in with a €20 bet on FF/SF at 12/1.

Don't see it myself, Martin painted himself into a corner with categorically ruling out both FG and SF, so if there's to be a coalition with SF, doubtful it will be with him as leader, and he wants to be Taoiseach more than anything else in the whole world, which is why I think it will be a.slight reversal of the current set up, with FF having slightly more seats than FG.

Who knows though, the shinners might even outpoll FG, nothing would surprise me, and the bookies have ruled out Leo being returned going by the odds.

McMurphy wrote: »

Don't see it myself, Martin basil painted himself into a corner with categorically ruling out both FG and SF, so if there's to be a coalition with SF, doubtful it will be with him as leader, and he wants to be Taoiseach more than anything else in the whole world, which is why I think it will be a.slight reversal of the current set up, with FF having slightly more seats than FG.

Who knows though, the shinners might even outpoll FG, nothing would surprise me, and the bookies have ruled out Leo being returned going by the odds.

I could see FG catching FF here. Varadkar is doing well against them after a bad start.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You said he has narrowed his path to power, I agree.

He hasn't the smarts to see that. Doesn't in my opinion mean he isn't 'power hungry'.

Of course the alternative is that he is not power hungry enough to entertain the idea of coalescing with a party like Sinn Fein.

More a morality issue than an intelligence issue.

Even though SF leader Mary Lou is the privately schooled daughter of a property developer who sends her kids to private schools it doesn’t mean that representitives from working class backgrounds who have gone through the public school system are any less intelligent.

easypazz

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I could see FG catching FF here. Varadkar is doing well against them after a bad start.

That is very possible, the next polls will be interesting, at the weekend I assume.

FG had a terrible start.

Tans gaffe - now subsided
Homeless dude scooped up by a track machine - all forgotten about
Teenager chopped up in Drogheda - largely forgotten about.
Hospital trolleys at peak - largely easing.

They have remained gaffe free since then and Leo is plugging his message consistently.

5 years fixing FF's mess, 4 years coming from a low base it is impossible to have everything built quickly

Give us 5 more years, with money behind us, to deliver results.

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Of course the alternative is that he is not power hungry enough to entertain the idea of coalescing with a party like Sinn Fein.

More a morality issue than an intelligence issue.

Even though SF leader Mary Lou is the privately schooled daughter of a property who sends her kids to private schools it doesn’t mean that representitives from working class backgrounds who have gone through the public school system are any less intelligent.

What???

FrancieBrady wrote: »

What???

I know. Shocking isn’t it!

SafeSurfer wrote: »

I know. Shocking isn’t it!

I say Michael lacks the intelligence to see he is restricting his chances and you pivot to some irrelevant working class/private school Mary Lou something or other theorising?

WTF?

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I say Michael lacks the intelligence to see he is restricting his chances and you pivot to some irrelevant working class/private school Mary Lou something or other theorising?

WTF?

You see Michael Martin’s refusal to enter coalition with Sinn Fein as a sign of lack of intelligence because you say he is unbelievably power hungry so he is stupid to forego the chance of power if it means SF as a partner.

You accuse someone else of lacking in intelligence when you can’t see the stupidity of your own argument.

SafeSurfer wrote: »

You see Michael Martin’s refusal to enter coalition with Sinn Fein as a sign of lack of intelligence because you say he is unbelievably power hungry so he is stupid to forego the chance of power if it means SF as a partner.

You accuse someone else of lacking in intelligence when you can’t see the stupidity of your own argument.

Many many power hungry people lack the intelligence to see obstacles they put in their own way and have a habit of digging holes.

That's why I made the point that when faced with the consequences he will swallow his words and 'find a way'. The exact same way he found a way to go in to a confidence and supply arrangement.
You can see the 'form of words' he found to justify that if you replay the debate.

Try reading what is being said?

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Many many power hungry people lack the intelligence to see obstacles they put in their own way and have a habit of digging holes.

That's why I made the point that when faced with the consequences he will swallow his words and 'find a way'. The exact same way he found a way to go in to a confidence and supply arrangement.
You can see the 'form of words' he found to justify that if you replay the debate.

Try reading what is being said?

You are contradicting yourself.

You are labelling MM as power hungry and then when this was contradicted as unintelligent.

As usual you are twisting yourself in knots to defend a point which is clearly untrue.

Show me the quote where MM ruled out confidence and supply.

SafeSurfer wrote: »

You are contradicting yourself.

You are labelling MM as power hungry and then when this was contradicted as unintelligent.

As usual you are twisting yourself in knots to defend a point which is clearly untrue.

What twisting?
The two aren't mutually exclusive, in fact they go and in hand normally IMO.

Show me the quote where MM ruled out confidence and supply.

I didn't say he did.
I said 'he found a way to go' into one after I can't remember exactly how long they circled each other.

Phoebas wrote: »

Peadar Toibin has thrown a big spanner in the SF works on who controls Sinn Fein.

Sinn Féin TDs have 'zero' influence and policies are handed down, says Tóibín

We used to get a lot of this from FF & FG but now it's coming from the horse's mouth.

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/election-2020/sinn-fein-tds-have-zero-influence-and-policies-are-handed-down-says-toibin-38901964.html

TBF the public might not know that that's common place. I know personally Labour do it and I know on two issues FG did it.
No lone candidate makes policy and will even flip flop if HQ says so.
People join the party they feel in sync with and follow the lead from HQ.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

What twisting?
The two aren't mutually exclusive, in fact they go and in hand normally IMO.

I didn't say he did.
I said 'he found a way to go' into one after I can't remember exactly how long they circled each other.

Martin outlined his position and kept his word after the election in 2016. There is no reason to believe he won’t keep his word about not entering coalition with SF after this election.

On the other hand Sinn Fein have abandoned more principles, broken more promises and crossed more red lines than probably any party in the history of the state.

Most recently the commitment to the Irish Language Bill. From a precondition of ending the three year hiatus from Stormont to abandoned when it was politically expedient.

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Yawn.

Tell us more about the troubles :rolleyes:

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Tell us more about the troubles :rolleyes:

Why don’t you ask your comrade who doesn’t think it was a power struggle. How’s that Irish Language Act coming along Matt.

rob316

Can't people build a bridge and get over SF part in the troubles? MM and LV are looking over their shoulders and doing everything they can to keep them away from power. You can be sure FG/FF will have no problem carrying on this supply and confidence agreement again the other way around if it comes to pass.

rob316 wrote: »

Can't people build a bridge and get over SF part in the troubles? MM and LV are looking over their shoulders and doing everything they can to keep them away from power. You can be sure FG/FF will have no problem carrying on this supply and confidence agreement again the other way around if it comes to pass.

That’s the mantra of the New National Socialist party in Germany too. It’s unfair to constantly bring up the past. Especially those pesky Jews, gypsies etc.

Godwin Alert!

maccored

SafeSurfer wrote: »

That’s the mantra of the New National Socialist party in Germany too. It’s unfair to constantly bring up the past. Especially those pesky Jews, gypsies etc.

Godwin Alert!

just going to say - someone would come along and godwin themselves

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Martin outlined his position and kept his word after the election in 2016. There is no reason to believe he won’t keep his word about not entering coalition with SF after this election.

And he portrayed it as 'woe is me, I did it for the country' etc etc etc last night on the debate.
My view of him, is that he is a leader looking for a spine.
He is a master of this kind of rhetoric and he will do it again if it comes to a situation that it's a coalition with SF or nothing.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

And he portrayed it as 'woe is me, I did it for the country' etc etc etc last night on the debate.
My view of him, is that he is a leader looking for a spine.
He is a master of this kind of rhetoric and he will do it again if it comes to a situation that it's a coalition with SF or nothing.

So just to be clear. You are criticising Michael Martin because you think he may break a promise in the future, not going into coalition with SF, but remain completely silent on Mary Lou’s already broken promise not to re enter Stormont with an Irish Language Act.

Who should we believe?

Someone who may break a commitment in the future or someone who broke a commitment to her supporters last week?

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Why don’t you ask your comrade who doesn’t think it was a power struggle. How’s that Irish Language Act coming along Matt.

It's compulsory in schools chief. Where are you typing from? Are you alluding to the north were SF stepped up to get things running again? Not so long ago they were getting the business for being petty and stubborn. FYI I think they were wrong to concede.
I place SF over and above FF/FG, but I vote on policy not team.

SafeSurfer wrote: »

That’s the mantra of the New National Socialist party in Germany too. It’s unfair to constantly bring up the past. Especially those pesky Jews, gypsies etc.

Godwin Alert!

Hey FG don't do that no more, they don't even speak it, not since Charlie tan-again's father. Move on comrade.

You lads need rehearse better. SF are all for immigrants, open doors and that right?

SafeSurfer wrote: »

So just to be clear. You are criticising Michael Martin because you think he may break a promise in the future, not going into coalition with SF, but remain completely silent on Mary Lou’s already broken promise not to re enter Stormont with an Irish Language Act.

Who should we believe?

Someone who may break a commitment in the future or someone who broke a commitment to her supporters last week?

Go to the relevant thread and in a discussion with blanch (I think) I said I thought SF would be wrong to go back with out a stand alone act and that I was bitterly disappointed that they did.

Sorry you have to eat your words here.