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Cork developments

snotboogie

I noticed that the Limerick equivalent is a very popular thread over on their forum so I thought I might get one going here. To kick things off I'll list the bigger current projects I can think of:

Under Construction

Navigation Square: Four building office development on the former Navigation House site on Albert Quay. 310,000 sq ft of office space for up to 3000 employees. First phase to be completed Feb 19'

89-90 South Mall: 50,000 sq ft office, 5 storey office building.To be completed in December 18'

Dalata Hotel South Mall: Six storey hotel, 165 beds. To be completed in December 18'

Various Student Accommodation: Western Road and Beamish site are under construction, Crows Nest has planning and should start soon, Square Deal is facing appeals, Coca-Cola site on the Carrigrohane Road has had planning for over a year but nothing has happened? O’Riordans Joinery, Gillen House on Farranlea Road, Model Farm Road/Melbourne Road and Copely Street are all at various stages of planning and/or limbo.

Planning/Appealed

Horgan's Quay: Office Space for 5,000 employees, 200 apartments, 136 bed hotel and 3000 sq metres of restaurants and retail. Got planning permission in March but it was appealed by Port of Cork. Uncertain when the final decision will be. Construction on the Hotel will hopefully begin in Q4 this year with the office and apartments commencing in 2019.

Sullivan's Quay: 6 storey Office & 193 bed 4 star Hotel. Planning granted and immediately appealed. Given that demolition is nearly complete I'd expect this to go into construction as soon as planning is granted. Potential hold up over the height of the hotel, at 12 storeys and 47 metres, it is set to make the top 20 tallest buildings in the state if completed. An Taisce not happy.

Former Victoria Hotel: Knocking much of the Victoria and rebuilding to the back and refurbishing the original historic front/facade and to integrate the two sections into a new high order retail unit, of 25,000 sq ft, over four floors. Rumoured to be taken over by Zara. Planning granted in Feb, nothing happened on site since.

Metropole Redevelopment: €50m redevelopment of the Metropole Hotel to include a new five-storey boutique hotel on Patrick's Quay. Planning granted with amendments in March. No date for work to start.

Wilton Shopping Centre: €100 million revamp proposed. Mistake made in planning permission. In the process of resubmitting.

In Limbo

Event Centre: 6000 all seater multi purpose event centre with a tourist brewery experience. Arguably the most controversial construction project in the history of the city. After a bleak 6 months at the back end of 2017 there have been two instances of positive murmurs from the Government and BAM in January 2018 and April 2018. Construction allegedly to start in Q4 2018 but there are still conflicting and contradictory statements from all parties involved. Most would be shocked to see this start in 2018.

Anderson Quay/Camden Quay/Trinity Quarter: All have had planning for years with no work on site. Camden Quay allegedly had some work going on last week but I'd be shocked if it was related to the actual construction. I can't see any of these sites being developed as per their current proposals.

Concept/Pre Planning

Docklands Tower: 40 storey mixed use tower with the redevelopment of the existing customs house warehouses into cultural, tourist and retail space. By a mile the most ambitious development in Ireland. Announced over one year ago and no sign of a planning permission application yet, allegedly waiting for the Docklands development plan this summer to rezone heights for the site. If we don't see a planning application by the end of the year I'd be worried.

Ford Distribution Depot: Put on sale last week. Former site of the extremely ambitious Atlantic Quarter. Major development opportunity

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bingo9999

I am not against it as an interim measure/ feasibility even - if you need to prove out demand/ route etc. But I would be strongly against it substituting for a light rail in Cork. There are lot of reasons a rail system is different to a bus, which this basically is, most notably speed, and the ability to, at least some of the time, avoid traffic. The LUAS in Dublin for the majority of the run from Brides Glen into town, Tallaght to town, Broombridge to town, is segregated from traffic as it should be, and covers big distances in very short time compared to road traffic. In an old city centre there are points where they share a road space but rail largely has priority in these cases. Thats very different to a glorified bus stopping at tailbacks in traffic on Sarfield road and pretending its a tram. Using that to determine if there is demand might actually hurt the case for light rail if people see the obvious that this is not a time saver and dont opt in.
If they want to surface the Blackrock greenway and close the marina to traffic and let this yoke blast along at full speed there it might go some way towards the end goal, but otherwise it couldnt be said to be the same thing at all

D'Agger

Are there plans for improved bus infrastructure around Glanmire - particularly with the Ballinglanna development going in? Looking at that area currently and given it's part of the city now I'm wondering what kind of development can expect to be seen in the next few years.

namloc1980

D'Agger wrote: »

Are there plans for improved bus infrastructure around Glanmire - particularly with the Ballinglanna development going in? Looking at that area currently and given it's part of the city now I'm wondering what kind of development can expect to be seen in the next few years.

CMATS includes BusConnects improvements around Glanmire including the new Ballinglanna area. When that might actually come to fruition though is a different topic altogether!

Flesh Gorden

D'Agger wrote: »

Are there plans for improved bus infrastructure around Glanmire - particularly with the Ballinglanna development going in? Looking at that area currently and given it's part of the city now I'm wondering what kind of development can expect to be seen in the next few years.

I'd be very doubtful, considering how much time and hassle it took to even get the bus to go as far as outside Fernwood.

There is a road within Fernwood connecting the new estate, so a 10min walk to and from will do.

I think they're adding a new bus stop at the entrance of Marwood, which is in keeping with the awkward bus stops in Glanmire that are just outside of 5m from busy junctions

Glanmire is quickly on it's way to being the new Carrigaline/Ballincollig. Just with much tighter country roads on every approach.

namloc1980

From looking at the BusConnects high level plan on CMATS there is proposed to be a transport hub at the proposed P&R at Dunkettle. This hub will have Cobh/Midleton rail line as well as bus routes to the city centre and East Cork, a route covering Glanmire area, a Little Island orbital, a northern city orbital via Mayfield, Blackpool etc., a southern city orbital via the tunnel covering Mahon Point, Douglas, CUH and CIT (expansion of the current 219 basically).

Sounds good in theory. But will probably never happen.

hans aus dtschl

I know someone who has been into the middle of Ballinglanna (ahem) and there is a bus stop built in the middle already now, on the through road from Fernwood to the Ballinglanna entrance/crossroads. It's near the top/back of the existing Fernwood.

I don't know whether the Fernwood bus would loop through Ballinglanna and on to either the Dunkettle interchange or Glanmire itself.

IMO the biggest issue with Glanmire buses is the lack of ability for them to get around. They have no priority on the dual carriageway or in Glanmire itself meaning that they get stuck in traffic for long spells.

Shedite27

Flesh Gorden wrote: »

Glanmire is quickly on it's way to being the new Carrigaline/Ballincollig. Just with much tighter country roads on every approach.

an extra sliproad off the M8 at Brooklodge or somwhere would really open it up

D'Agger

My concern is that I'm looking at a place near Ballinglanna but it would be a 15 minute walk down roads with no footpaths potentially - the roads, as has been mentioned are narrow which don't suit bus routes.

namloc1980

Shedite27 wrote: »

an extra sliproad off the M8 at Brooklodge or somwhere would really open it up

Or it would just bring more traffic into an area not suited to it. More roads does not improve traffic. This is true the world over yet remains at the core of transport policy in Ireland.

namloc1980

D'Agger wrote: »

My concern is that I'm looking at a place near Ballinglanna but it would be a 15 minute walk down roads with no footpaths potentially - the roads, as has been mentioned are narrow which don't suit bus routes.

TBH if you're looking to buy somewhere with relatively decent public transport options (in Cork terms) then the Glanmire area would be one of the last places in the city I'd look at.

hans aus dtschl

D'Agger wrote: »

My concern is that I'm looking at a place near Ballinglanna but it would be a 15 minute walk down roads with no footpaths potentially - the roads, as has been mentioned are narrow which don't suit bus routes.

This will all change very soon, feel free to drop me a PM.
See link to original design below. Updated design and CPO are in process with planning in to ABP.
https://www.corkcoco.ie/sites/default/files/2018-05/SHT_20_GLAM_CT_009.1 - 009.6_0.pdf

hans aus dtschl

Shedite27 wrote: »

an extra sliproad off the M8 at Brooklodge or somwhere would really open it up

I THINK this was in the original 1980's design but was ruled out due to fears it would make Glanmire a rat-run to the city.

Unfortunately the Sarsfield's court junction now makes Glanmire a rat-run to East Cork and the City. It needs to be dealt with TBH. Probably more traffic lights unfortunately.

Frostybrew

Shedite27 wrote: »

an extra sliproad off the M8 at Brooklodge or somwhere would really open it up

This was discussed about 20 years ago and rejected as it would create a rat run between the M8 and the rest of the Northside. There is very little development land close to this area. It's policy to keep development inside the bypass to prevent urban sprawl, and most of the sites close to this proposed interchange have already been developed.

It's also a third interchange, within a short distance, on an interurban route; which needs to be kept clear of commuter traffic in order to continue to be effective.

The best way to open up the Glanmire area is to improve public transport and public transport infrastructure, as others have indicated.

Hans got there before me.

who_me

Haven't noticed it mentioned here, but the Munster Agricultural Society's application for an exhibition (and/or sports) centre in Curraheen was approved last week.

It seems to have gone under the radar to some degree, compared with the event centre; but arguably they would complement each other nicely. the Event Centre - should it happen - is very much a 'theatre' style layout, so great for entertainment events (music/show etc.) but it's not suited to exhibitions. That's where the MAS venue could fill the gap. I think the city-centre location is better suited to the entertainment venue too, whereas for an exhibition location isn't quite as critical?

Worryingly though, they seem to be looking for Government funding to help build it, and they've likely missed the boat of pre-election profligacy. And with the nearby CIT sports arena getting substantial funding, and the Munster indoor training facility too; not to mention the increase in funding for the Event Centre, it might be a very difficult sell.

whisky_galore

namloc1980 wrote: »

The stupid glorified bus is being talked about again.

.

Looks like a cheap childs toy in a poor Photoshop effort.

allanon1980

By the Ballinglanna development.

thomil

whisky_galore wrote: »

Looks like a cheap childs toy in a poor Photoshop effort.

That's actually a shot from a test track in China, but don't let me stop your "Keeping up with the Dubliners" syndrome.

Fact is that light rail will do nothing to solve the transport issues in Cork that can't be solved with BRT, no matter what some people in this thread may be dreaming up.

Both light rail and BRT will require draconian traffic control measures to keep obstructions from clueless motorists (translation: 95% of them) to a minimum and to prevent any trams or buses from being stuck in traffic. This in itself is pretty much an impossibility given the mentality that Cork City Council has displayed over the last few years. The only way to circumvent this would be to tunnel under the city centre, which would be a nightmare given the ground composition, just ask Hamburg about the U4 extension to Landungsbrücken.

Then there's the effect that construction will have on the city centre, which would mean ripping open most of the city centre streets for months to install tracks, signalling equipment, power supply, etc. Given the screaming and hollering by certain city traders about even a small three hour partial closure of Patrick Street, any longer closure is going to be a non-starter, simply due to the intransigence and ignorance of certain locals.

Like it or not, light rail is not going to happen, and it isn't necessary. BRT will do all that is needed at significantly lower costs with a lot less disruption. But it doesn't stroke the Cork ego enough I guess...

Shedite27

Frostybrew wrote: »

This was discussed about 20 years ago and rejected as it would create a rat run between the M8 and the rest of the Northside. There is very little development land close to this area. It's policy to keep development inside the bypass to prevent urban sprawl, and most of the sites close to this proposed interchange have already been developed.

It's also a third interchange, within a short distance, on an interurban route; which needs to be kept clear of commuter traffic in order to continue to be effective.

The best way to open up the Glanmire area is to improve public transport and public transport infrastructure, as others have indicated.

Yeah but there's no way of getting a bus lane into Riverstown with the width of the village. IF it allows a more frequent bus route to an area crying out for public transport it would make sense.

It'd be the 3rd exit within 6k, Cashel manages the same without too many problem. And one of those 3 at Dunkettle will be a free flow soon anyway.

Glanmire has changed a lot in 20 years, they only got the Community College 15 years ago. Just because it didn't make sense back then isnt a reason to shoot it down.

hans aus dtschl

thomil wrote: »

But it doesn't stroke the Cork ego enough I guess...

Liked the rest of your post but no need for this. Most people on here want what will work best, not what gives the most prestige.

Your thoughts on disruption, protestations etc are spot on.

But the legacy tram alignment could (and should) be reused.

Frostybrew

Shedite27 wrote: »

Yeah but there's no way of getting a bus lane into Riverstown with the width of the village. IF it allows a more frequent bus route to an area crying out for public transport it would make sense. .

Both Riverstown and Glanmire villages are restricted, this is true. There are however many other improvements that can easily be made. Plenty of room for bus lanes at Hazelwood and also for ballinglanna/dunkettle, the area we are discussing.

Shedite27 wrote: »

It'd be the 3rd exit within 6k, Cashel manages the same without too many problem. And one of those 3 at Dunkettle will be a free flow soon anyway.
.

Cashel is a very poor comparative example. It's a small rural tourist town in isolation. Glanmire is a commuter town/suburb in a large urban area. Completely different traffic scenarios. A third interchange would gridlock the Glanmire area.

Shedite27 wrote: »

Glanmire has changed a lot in 20 years, they only got the Community College 15 years ago. Just because it didn't make sense back then isnt a reason to shoot it down.

The community college opened in 1996 following a 20 year campaign to solve a chronic shortage of secondary school places. As an example in the late 80s there were only 12 secondary places available for the 40 final year students in one of the primary schools in the area. The only thing that didn't make sense was the fact that the college opened as late as it did. About 20 years too late.

hans aus dtschl

Shedite27 wrote: »

Yeah but there's no way of getting a bus lane into Riverstown with the width of the village. IF it allows a more frequent bus route to an area crying out for public transport it would make sense.

It'd be the 3rd exit within 6k, Cashel manages the same without too many problem. And one of those 3 at Dunkettle will be a free flow soon anyway.

Glanmire has changed a lot in 20 years, they only got the Community College 15 years ago. Just because it didn't make sense back then isnt a reason to shoot it down.

That Community College was finished in '96...I think you're missing a decade or so!

I totally disagree with the use of roads to "solve traffic issues" for Glanmire.
Riverstown and Glanmire may need a bus lane but they also need:

1
To remove the rat running traffic. I know many people rat running from North Cork through Glanmire and Upper Glanmire in the mornings - these need to be removed ASAP.

2
To provide adequate footpaths.
These were identified as needing to be completed "before Ballinglanna could open" according to ABP who approved the scheme and didn't give a fiddlers thereafter. Poor footpaths means people won't leave their child walk to/from school.

3
To provide an active transport route from Dunkettle through Glanmire to Riverstown, via John O'Callaghan park, as per plans. This would cost an extremely small amount of money and would hoover up another few % of people.

4
Ban on cars without blue badges stopping outside the schools on the Hazelwood road. These block traffic for several hours every day. This has been done in Fingal, it should also be done in Glanmire.

5
Tivoli dual carriageway to be single lane plus bus lane.

6
Right turn lane in Glanmire (underway)

7
Right turn lane at Hazelwood (underway)

Basically, as far as I'm concerned the idea of using roads to resolve traffic in Glanmire (74% car use) is like using petrol to put out a fire.

hans aus dtschl

Frostybrew wrote: »

Everything he said

You got there before me.

No more roads for Glanmire please.
It's time for modal shift now.

namloc1980

thomil wrote: »

That's actually a shot from a test track in China, but don't let me stop your "Keeping up with the Dubliners" syndrome.

Fact is that light rail will do nothing to solve the transport issues in Cork that can't be solved with BRT, no matter what some people in this thread may be dreaming up.

Both light rail and BRT will require draconian traffic control measures to keep obstructions from clueless motorists (translation: 95% of them) to a minimum and to prevent any trams or buses from being stuck in traffic. This in itself is pretty much an impossibility given the mentality that Cork City Council has displayed over the last few years. The only way to circumvent this would be to tunnel under the city centre, which would be a nightmare given the ground composition, just ask Hamburg about the U4 extension to Landungsbrücken.

Then there's the effect that construction will have on the city centre, which would mean ripping open most of the city centre streets for months to install tracks, signalling equipment, power supply, etc. Given the screaming and hollering by certain city traders about even a small three hour partial closure of Patrick Street, any longer closure is going to be a non-starter, simply due to the intransigence and ignorance of certain locals.

Like it or not, light rail is not going to happen, and it isn't necessary. BRT will do all that is needed at significantly lower costs with a lot less disruption. But it doesn't stroke the Cork ego enough I guess...

Based on the CMATS, LRT is the recommended solution for Cork and this is from the National Transport Authority. They stated this due to the planned growth of Cork under the NPF and to support future proofing of the transport system. I'd like to see your detailed analysis as to why a bus is better? Did you make a submission with such analysis?

Your argument also states that because some traders will kick off that we shouldn't do these things? Basically you're advocating that the tail wags the dog. A proper BRT would require significant road closures, construction etc. I suspect that if a bus is ultimately chosen over LRT in Cork, it'll be a complete fudge job with just a few unsegregated painted bus lanes here and there and everyone will pat themselves on the back, while traffic gets worse.

namloc1980