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Saracens Salarygate: Automatic Relegation?

thomond2006

It's probably worth its own thread by now.

RugbyPass reporting that Saracens could be set for automatic relegation after failing to reduce their salaries in time.

https://amp.rugbypass.com/news/saracens-stand-on-brink-of-automatic-relegation-as-nightmare-season-set-to-continue/?__twitter_impression=true

Now this is Rugbypass who are quite clickbaity so let's see if more media run with this.

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RugbyLover123

It’s farcical stuff from anyone defending Sarries that has been involved in the organisation. Anyone claiming Nigel Wray was naive and didn’t know he was doing anything wrong only needs to go and look at the names of the co-investments to know they knew what they were doing wasn't right.

prawnsambo

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

a lot of those you list would come under that heading. I'm fairly sure refs dont as they would be under different area.

Mind telling me where in the accounts their salaries would be included if not under professional game costs?

prawnsambo

lawrencesummers wrote: »

Central contracts are few and far between, no player should be getting one unless they are a cert, injury aside of making the Match day squad. Kearney isn’t even able to make the extended Training squad.

It’s a waste of a contract and contradicts the OP’s view that the IRFU are top notch negotiators.

You don't know what he's being paid, so you're just waffling.

Jump_In_Jack

lawrencesummers wrote: »

Central contracts are few and far between, no player should be getting one unless they are a cert, injury aside of making the Match day squad. Kearney isn’t even able to make the extended Training squad.

It’s a waste of a contract and contradicts the OP’s view that the IRFU are top notch negotiators.

Did you consider that he could have left Ireland for a french or japanese club for more money and a longer contract before the World Cup but the Irfu wanted him enough to make a deal to give him a one year extension?
Seems like a good deal for both sides.

lawrencesummers

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

Did you consider that he could have left Ireland for a french or japanese club for more money before the World Cup but the Irfu wanted him enough to make a deal to give him a one year extension?
Seems like a good deal for both sides.

Did you consider that he negotiated his contract under the Hollow threat of leaving for a French of Japanese club that would have ruled him out of the World Cup and the IRFU have Called his bluff because he wasn’t going anywhere.

lawrencesummers

prawnsambo wrote: »

You don't know what he's being paid, so you're just waffling.

Indeed I do.

The Lost Sheep

prawnsambo wrote: »

Mind telling me where in the accounts their salaries would be included if not under professional game costs?

They're not the pro game. Refs would be game support costs. Think annual report separates them as that. Reffing doesnt come under pro game in costs.

Bazzo

Yeah, sorry, for some reason I thought the budget was for "Professional game and development"

sydthebeat

lawrencesummers wrote: »

The fact that Kearney is on a central contract disputes your beliefs somewhat. What an utter waste of a central contract

Rob kearney getting a central contract did not in any possible way restrict any one else from also getting a central contract.

These are not pub licences they are handing out.

[Deleted User]

MOD NOTE

This thread is for Saracens chat I don't know how Irish Central contracts and who's on them and the merits of them has come into it but it stops now

prawnsambo

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

They're not the pro game. Refs would be game support costs. Think annual report separates them as that. Reffing doesnt come under pro game in costs.

Thanks. Yeah, Game support costs which only has referee costs in it. €550k approx.

Squidgy Black

fitz wrote: »

Yeah, he was spouting the same kinda rubbish on the Rugby Pod. Completely delusional.

To sum up Venters argument on the Rugby Pod:

"Nobody kept a book on salaries, Nigel Wray just negotiated with the players and gave them what they want"

"It's not that they spent loads of money on new players, it's that the existing squad became so great they had to be paid more"

"We were barely over the cap because of a few injuries this season, and took relegation because we didn't want to have to immediately cut 2 or 3 big players"

Eod100

RFU might be looking into punishing Saracens further: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2020/01/21/rfu-considering-saracens-misconduct-investigation-possible-disciplinary/

prawnsambo

Squidgy Black wrote: »

To sum up Venters argument on the Rugby Pod:

"Nobody kept a book on salaries, Nigel Wray just negotiated with the players and gave them what they want"

"It's not that they spent loads of money on new players, it's that the existing squad became so great they had to be paid more"

"We were barely over the cap because of a few injuries this season, and took relegation because we didn't want to have to immediately cut 2 or 3 big players"

Sounds like the Bertie Ahern defence. I never had a cheque buke. And I didn't need to have account bukes like.

The rest of it sounds just like that interview he gave. "I'll have to think about it. Think deeply. Very deeply".

Jump_In_Jack

lawrencesummers wrote: »

Did you consider that he negotiated his contract under the Hollow threat of leaving for a French of Japanese club that would have ruled him out of the World Cup and the IRFU have Called his bluff because he wasn’t going anywhere.

You’re now saying they called his bluff?
So which is it, did they negotiate badly or did they negotiate well?
You’re contradicting yourself.
They clearly were happy to retain his services for the World Cup for the cost of a one year central contract, the fullback position was not particularly stacked with international level alternatives so it was a shrewd deal, even taking into account that he has been dropped now since the World Cup.
Also, like for any well-run organisation, it’s good for the reputation of the IRFU and for future negotiations to be seen as an organisation that tends to look after long-serving players.

lawrencesummers

Eod100 wrote: »

RFU might be looking into punishing Saracens further: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2020/01/21/rfu-considering-saracens-misconduct-investigation-possible-disciplinary/

They will have to, because if sarries keep playing the way they are then a run up the table is entirely possible that will put them into the playoff and a possibility of winning the league that they are to be relegated from. The 35 point deduction simply isn’t enough to ensure they don’t do that.

Squidgy Black

I don't understand how PRL haven't just made them open their books and made the accounts public yet.

That's the most infuriating thing about the whole situation, the rumours and statements with conflicting information, Sarries denying everything and then PRL handing down sanctions saying the opposite.

Just make it official public knowledge that they broke the cap by X amount for each of the seasons.

lawrencesummers

Squidgy Black wrote: »

I don't understand how PRL haven't just made them open their books and made the accounts public yet.

That's the most infuriating thing about the whole situation, the rumours and statements with conflicting information, Sarries denying everything and then PRL handing down sanctions saying the opposite.

Just make it official public knowledge that they broke the cap by X amount for each of the seasons.

Because the rules that govern it are not strong enough.

prawnsambo

Squidgy Black wrote: »

I don't understand how PRL haven't just made them open their books and made the accounts public yet.

That's the most infuriating thing about the whole situation, the rumours and statements with conflicting information, Sarries denying everything and then PRL handing down sanctions saying the opposite.

Just make it official public knowledge that they broke the cap by X amount for each of the seasons.

They already said how much they broke the cap by afaik. Figures of £1.2 and £1.3 million for two seasons were published that I've seen.

lawrencesummers

prawnsambo wrote: »

They already said how much they broke the cap by afaik. Figures of £1.2 and £1.3 million for two seasons were published that I've seen.

Link?

prawnsambo

Squidgy Black wrote: »

I don't understand how PRL haven't just made them open their books and made the accounts public yet.

That's the most infuriating thing about the whole situation, the rumours and statements with conflicting information, Sarries denying everything and then PRL handing down sanctions saying the opposite.

Just make it official public knowledge that they broke the cap by X amount for each of the seasons.

This appears to b the definitive answer to your question. https://twitter.com/AndyGoode10/status/1219751104256315397?s=20

Squidgy Black

prawnsambo wrote: »

They already said how much they broke the cap by afaik. Figures of £1.2 and £1.3 million for two seasons were published that I've seen.

I don't think it's been officially confirmed though just thrown around by journos. There's been no official correspondence on the judgement or investigations.

prawnsambo

The £1.2 and £1.3 miillion amounts for 2017/18 and 2018/19 seasons were widely reported. This is one link to it that isn't paywalled.

Edit: The Times broke those amounts initially. Nobody has denied them. Apart from Brendan (I can't find my calculator) Venter.

Guy:Incognito

prawnsambo wrote: »

They already said how much they broke the cap by afaik. Figures of £1.2 and £1.3 million for two seasons were published that I've seen.

Venter is claiming £500,000 max for this season.

prawnsambo

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Venter is claiming £500,000 max for this season.

So he's admitting there was a breach. That's something i suppose. Not sure how it could be lower than the previous two seasons when they'd just brought Elliot Daly in. Was he pad from the rootings of Nigel Wray's sofa?

CatFromHue

lawrencesummers wrote: »

They will have to, because if sarries keep playing the way they are then a run up the table is entirely possible that will put them into the playoff and a possibility of winning the league that they are to be relegated from. The 35 point deduction simply isn’t enough to ensure they don’t do that.

They'd need to win all their remaining games with tbp to have any chance.

Even they'd only finish on 63 which wouldn't have been enough to get in the top 4 for most of the last few years.

lawrencesummers

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=

CatFromHue wrote: »

They'd need to win all their remaining games with tbp to have any chance.

Even they'd only finish on 63 which wouldn't have been enough to get in the top 4 for most of the last few years.

Yea it’s unlikely based on previous years, But last year 4th place was 56 points however this isn’t previous years, they have the squad to do it, they can compete when the 6 nations is on, and they Still have to play the top 6 teams ,so while it’s unlikely and an outside bet it is still possible for them to win the league.

I think what we will see is in the coming rounds once (if) they start to make Their way up the table then additional points will be deducted from them.

BonnieSituation

CatFromHue wrote: »

They'd need to win all their remaining games with tbp to have any chance.

Even they'd only finish on 63 which wouldn't have been enough to get in the top 4 for most of the last few years.

Was just trying to get on to look at the table actually and it seems the PRL website is down.

Dravokivich

lawrencesummers wrote: »

Central contracts are few and far between, no player should be getting one unless they are a cert, injury aside of making the Match day squad. Kearney isn’t even able to make the extended Training squad.

It’s a waste of a contract and contradicts the OP’s view that the IRFU are top notch negotiators.

Their's been a change of head coach, who wants to focus on developing a team beyond the next 8 weeks. I expected rob to be in the periphery as an experienced player, but I'm not surprised to find he wasnt listed. And its not for a lack of ability as a player. It's just theres nothing more he can give the team after the 6n.

The Iron Giant

Eod100 wrote: »

RFU might be looking into punishing Saracens further: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2020/01/21/rfu-considering-saracens-misconduct-investigation-possible-disciplinary/

They need to strip them of their titles won in salary cap breaching years. Bewildering that they haven't done that yet.