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Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

[Deleted User]

Continued from here
https://touch.boards.ie/thread/2057953711/251
All Ireland Senior XV related talk here.

MOD: Bear in mind this thread is starting during the World Cup window and the zero tolerance policy is in force. Trolling will be rewarded with an instant ban. For the duration of the tournament any mention of Zebo in this thread will not be permitted, it is just dragging current Ireland squad talk off topic.

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molloyjh

ionadnapokot wrote: »

Yes. See Best v Sexton. BOD v Wood.
Firstly I reject your assertion that he has shown himself to be a good captain.
Secondly he’s not fit and isn’t or shouldn’t be a guaranteed starter v Scotland.

And lastly we have a world class guaranteed starter in second row. And if it’s too early for Ryan there are alternative options in POM, CJ, Henderson or even Ruddock.

Edit: & I don’t think 10s even should be captains. They should be organising rather than annoying referees.

What exactly about his captaincy has not been good? Admittedly there is a really small sample size of games that he has played as captain and the Leinster squad is choc full of leaders, but what exactly about his captaincy has not been good? Remember, theres been plenty of commentary on here alone about his changed demeanor since given the armband at Leinster.

He is not fit now. The Scotland game is 2 1/2 weeks away. He could well be fit by then. And he 100% is a guaranteed starter if fit. Anyone who thinks otherwise is, apologies for being very direct here, deluded. The guy is still one of the best 10s in the world and has shown good form for Leinster since returning from the RWC. He is light years ahead of Byrne and Burns.

Bogwoppit

I think it has to be Sexton for now, there’s just no other realistic option in my eyes.

When it’s time for him to go I think Ringrose will get the nod, it looks to me like he has been primed for captaincy from early on and it wouldn’t surprise me if he got it sooner rather than later.

stephen_n

Sexton Captain, POM, CJ, Ruddock, Henderson all as co captains, sorted.

Buer

Is anyone actually surprised that Sexton is set to be named captain? Seriously?

- He was already named captain in the RWC in Best's absence despite POM and Ruddock being named to start in the same match.
- He's a provincial captain and has done a solid job particularly this season in how he has dealt with referees.
- There is no real other stand out candidate. POM's form has dropped significantly and is under huge pressure for a spot. Henderson has already come out and said he doesn't want it. Ryan is very young and developing as a leader. Ruddock is probably 50/50 to be in the side at best
- He was brought into the meet up at Christmas despite being medium/long term injured
- He's a guaranteed starter.

It's curious how much things change. 2 years ago there wouldn't have even been a question of POM not getting the job after Best and Sexton was viewed as a hothead who couldn't speak with officials.

Buer

Dog Botherer wrote: »

Henderson isn’t guaranteed to start, if Farrell picks on form.

ionadnapokot wrote: »

Same for Sexton!

The bloke showed against Northampton and Lyon that he's still delivering to a level that no other outhalf in Ireland can reach. He's straight into the first choice team currently.

I don't think he's captain long term, for obvious reasons. He'll hold the fort until Ryan is comfortable with leading the team, I'd imagine.

stephen_n

Buer wrote: »

It's curious how much things change. 2 years ago there wouldn't have even been a question of POM not getting the job after Best and Sexton was viewed as a hothead who couldn't speak with officials.

It appears many people still do.

aloooof

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I think you're drifting into fiction here a bit.

Could you point to specific fixtures where you feel Sexton's captaincy was a failure because I'm coming up blank?

The 2 that come to mind to me are:

- Munster in Thomond last season where Sexton lost the rag as Leinster lost their discipline.

- The incident where Sexton said something along the lines of “I know you hate me but you have to talk to me” to a ref. I can’t imagine that will endear him to any referee.

Having said that, I think he’d still be my pick, as he is a guaranteed starter.

Former Former

Ah there's no way Sexton is anything other than a guaranteed starter.

I wouldn't make him captain if we had a clear alternative but I don't know if we do.

P.Walnuts

Sexton has had, what about 300 senior rugby appearances?

If the only black marks against him are a flippant comment and a derby that got a bit heated then I think it's ok.

Dave_The_Sheep

aloooof wrote: »

- The incident where Sexton said something along the lines of “I know you hate me but you have to talk to me” to a ref. I can’t imagine that will endear him to any referee.

In the past, I don't think he's dealt particularly well with referees. He's not been bad, but he's not been good.

However, it's been a hugely noticeable difference this year in his games as captain when it comes to ref interactions. It seems to be something he's worked hugely on, he's listening to refs have their say without pouting and then making his point in a measured respectful manner. And it's worked out a lot better for him.

[Deleted User]

ionadnapokot wrote: »

Yes. See Best v Sexton. BOD v Wood.
Firstly I reject your assertion that he has shown himself to be a good captain.
Secondly he’s not fit and isn’t or shouldn’t be a guaranteed starter v Scotland.

And lastly we have a world class guaranteed starter in second row. And if it’s too early for Ryan there are alternative options in POM, CJ, Henderson or even Ruddock.

Edit: & I don’t think 10s even should be captains. They should be organising rather than annoying referees.

If Sexton isn't guaranteed to start the next in line is Ross Byrne, who is Sexton's understudy at Leinster...

So yes Sexton is guaranteed to start for the moment.

prawnsambo

Dave_The_Sheep wrote: »

In the past, I don't think he's dealt particularly well with referees. He's not been bad, but he's not been good.

However, it's been a hugely noticeable difference this year in his games as captain when it comes to ref interactions. It seems to be something he's worked hugely on, he's listening to refs have their say without pouting and then making his point in a measured respectful manner. And it's worked out a lot better for him.

It's a two way street I'd imagine. He's certainly demonstrating a lot more respect for the referees these days and he'd obviously have their respect as well.

arsebiscuits1

On Sexton being captain thing.

Is he more "hot headed" than Owen Farrell the England captain? Both have demonstrated petulant behaviour on the field (the hallmark of a good northern hemisphere 10 imo).

People bitching and moaning about Sextons attitude are the same who want to "pick on form" so recent evidence should be your main factor. The main recent factor is that Sextons captaincy for Leinster this season has seen him be very calm and clear with the ref and chooses his battles wisely.

Having said all that. I want James Ryan. A 23 year maverick taking over from a recently retired hooker and Irish legend after a RWC? The prophecy repeats itself!!!

[Deleted User]

I don't know who else we pick but Sexton. It's him or POM, and if (if) POM is a better captain any benefit of that would be totally outweighed by the fact he would in fact have to be playing in the team.

PhlegmyMoses

Sexton has been pretty good over the last year in the captaincy for Leinster in his dealings with refs tbh. Was something I was concerned about but that concern has ebbed away a lot

whatawaster

Will there be a press conference with the squad selection?

aloooof

Dave_The_Sheep wrote: »

In the past, I don't think he's dealt particularly well with referees. He's not been bad, but he's not been good.

However, it's been a hugely noticeable difference this year in his games as captain when it comes to ref interactions. It seems to be something he's worked hugely on, he's listening to refs have their say without pouting and then making his point in a measured respectful manner. And it's worked out a lot better for him.

In that regard, it sounds like it was a "work on" that he's responded to, and that can only be a good thing.

My only point was that it's not fiction to suggest there were games where his captaincy needed to be a lot better. And that can be acknowledged while still thinking he should be captain.

Squidgy Black

On another note, I think the backup openside is going to be an interesting selection, particularly if VdF is rested or picks up a knock at any stage of the tournament.

Does Farrell go with POM or Ruddock, or even the likes of Deegan? Or does he call up Connors or picks Jordi Murphy for his versatility

D.Q

Saw Devin Toner at Slipknot in the 3 arena last night. Must be trying to up the aggression before the 6 nations. Bold move. Lets see if it pays off.

ionadnapóca

Buer wrote: »

Is anyone actually surprised that Sexton is set to be named captain? Seriously?

- He was already named captain in the RWC in Best's absence despite POM and Ruddock being named to start in the same match.
- He's a provincial captain and has done a solid job particularly this season in how he has dealt with referees.
- There is no real other stand out candidate. POM's form has dropped significantly and is under huge pressure for a spot. Henderson has already come out and said he doesn't want it. Ryan is very young and developing as a leader. Ruddock is probably 50/50 to be in the side at best
- He was brought into the meet up at Christmas despite being medium/long term injured
- He's a guaranteed starter.

It's curious how much things change. 2 years ago there wouldn't have even been a question of POM not getting the job after Best and Sexton was viewed as a hothead who couldn't speak with officials.

No
Nobody
Seriously

Neil3030

Buer wrote: »

Is anyone actually surprised that Sexton is set to be named captain? Seriously?

- He was already named captain in the RWC in Best's absence despite POM and Ruddock being named to start in the same match.
- He's a provincial captain and has done a solid job particularly this season in how he has dealt with referees.
- There is no real other stand out candidate. POM's form has dropped significantly and is under huge pressure for a spot. Henderson has already come out and said he doesn't want it. Ryan is very young and developing as a leader. Ruddock is probably 50/50 to be in the side at best
- He was brought into the meet up at Christmas despite being medium/long term injured
- He's a guaranteed starter.

It's curious how much things change. 2 years ago there wouldn't have even been a question of POM not getting the job after Best and Sexton was viewed as a hothead who couldn't speak with officials.

Surprise isn't quite the word.

More.... disappointment that there isn't an alternative who (a) will be at the next RWC, will (b) more likely be fit for most test matches there between and (c) last the full 80 in the matches he plays.

In terms of doing the job, and general character, I've no issue. It's a matter of logistics, probability and long term planning.

The Rape of Lucretia

Neil3030 wrote: »

In terms of doing the job, and general character, I've no issue. It's a matter of logistics, probability and long term planning.

General character is exactly where he fails for me. The best captains these days have to be great diplomats, be the refs freind no matter what they are discussing, and be very calculated in what they raise as an issue, how far the press the point, and when to show frustration, cooperation, understanding, contrition, etc.
Johnny cant even manage himself best, let alone his team mates, and last of all a ref. He is ultra competitive and demanding of himself. Which is great, and part of what makes him a great player. But that also gives a skewed view: he is never wrong, his team mates are never wrong, and its a sign of competitive weakness if he were to acknowledge that on the field in the hear of the moment. Instead, its the opposition who are in the wrong, offside, late tackling, hands in the ruck, etc, and the ref is 'against' him or has a personal vendetta if they dont see it as Sexto does.
He can lead by deed, and by attitude of giving everything to the cause. But that is not sophisticated enough a captain for the modern game. Best was excellent at this.

sydthebeat

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

General character is exactly where he fails for me. The best captains these days have to be great diplomats, be the refs freind no matter what they are discussing, and be very calculated in what they raise as an issue, how far the press the point, and when to show frustration, cooperation, understanding, contrition, etc.
Johnny cant even manage himself best, let alone his team mates, and last of all a ref. He is ultra competitive and demanding of himself. Which is great, and part of what makes him a great player. But that also gives a skewed view of , he is never wrong, his team mates or never wrong, and its a sign of competitive weakness if he were to acknowledge that on the field in the hear of the moment. Instead, its the opposition who are in the wrong, offside, late tackling, hands in the ruck, etc, and the ref is 'against' him or has a personal vendetta if they dont see it as Sexto does.
He can lead by deed, and by attitude of giving everything to the cause. But that is not sophisticated enough a captain for the modern game.

18 months too late for this post......

prawnsambo

Neil3030 wrote: »

Surprise isn't quite the word.

More.... disappointment that there isn't an alternative who (a) will be at the next RWC, will (b) more likely be fit for most test matches there between and (c) last the full 80 in the matches he plays.

In terms of doing the job, and general character, I've no issue. It's a matter of logistics, probability and long term planning.

Sexton is actually an ideal candidate to achieve what you're looking for. He won't be playing every game, he won't be playing eighty minutes of every game, so there will be opportunities for a matchday or deputy captain to take charge when Sexton isn't on the pitch.

[Deleted User]

Is this happening today?

Bazzo

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Is this happening today?

4pm I think?

Clegg

FWIW this is the squad that Thornley thinks will be named.

IRELAND (possible Six Nations squad) –
Hookers: Niall Scannell, Rob Herring, Ronan Kelleher.
Props: Cian Healy, David Kilcoyne, Tadhg Furlong, Andrew Porter, Marty Moore.
Locks: James Ryan, Iain Henderson, Devin Toner, Jean Kleyn, Ultan Dillane.
Backrows: Rhys Ruddock, Peter O’Mahony, Josh van der Flier, CJ Stander, Max Deegan, Caelan Doris, Will Connors.

Scrumhalves: Conor Murray, Luke McGrath, John Cooney.
Outhalves: Johnny Sexton (capt), Ross Byrne, Billy Burns.
Centres: Bundee Aki, Robbie Henshaw, Garry Ringrose, Stuart McCloskey, Chris Farrell.
Outside backs: Andrew Conway, Keith Earls, Jacob Stockdale, Jordan Larmour, Dave Kearney, Will Addison

awec

It's a shame that it looks like Rob Kearney, barring an injury crisis, won't pick up another cap and won't get a proper send off.

stephen_n

awec wrote: »

It's a shame that it looks like Rob Kearney, barring an injury crisis, won't pick up another cap and won't get a proper send off.

Very few in test rugby ever do.

thomond2006

Clegg wrote: »

FWIW this is the squad that Thornley thinks will be named.

IRELAND (possible Six Nations squad) –
Hookers: Niall Scannell, Rob Herring, Ronan Kelleher.
Props: Cian Healy, David Kilcoyne, Tadhg Furlong, Andrew Porter, Marty Moore.
Locks: James Ryan, Iain Henderson, Devin Toner, Jean Kleyn, Ultan Dillane.
Backrows: Rhys Ruddock, Peter O’Mahony, Josh van der Flier, CJ Stander, Max Deegan, Caelan Doris, Will Connors.

Scrumhalves: Conor Murray, Luke McGrath, John Cooney.
Outhalves: Johnny Sexton (capt), Ross Byrne, Billy Burns.
Centres: Bundee Aki, Robbie Henshaw, Garry Ringrose, Stuart McCloskey, Chris Farrell.
Outside backs: Andrew Conway, Keith Earls, Jacob Stockdale, Jordan Larmour, Dave Kearney, Will Addison

Jean Kleyn has gone for a neck scan so he might end up unavailable.
Otherwise there's very little to glean from it.