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Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

[Deleted User]

Continued from here
https://touch.boards.ie/thread/2057953711/251
All Ireland Senior XV related talk here.

MOD: Bear in mind this thread is starting during the World Cup window and the zero tolerance policy is in force. Trolling will be rewarded with an instant ban. For the duration of the tournament any mention of Zebo in this thread will not be permitted, it is just dragging current Ireland squad talk off topic.

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awec

molloyjh wrote: »

It did fail. And Henshaw should be by no means favourite for the 12 shirt for the 6Ns as it stands. That doesnt actually change any of what I said though. Just because someone is playing well for their province does not mean they will play well for Ireland. That was simply my point. And new guys coming in do have an element of uncertainty around them. Theres absolutely no point in rehashing old discussions about 2019 because none of it changes any of the above one way or the other.

Sure there's uncertainty, but the only way players banging on the door are going to get any better or move up a level is if they get a real chance to do it.

There's a tonne of uncertainty around picking Henshaw too by the way. I certainly would not be confident selecting him based on what he has offered recently.

molloyjh

awec wrote: »

Well, with all due respect, this approach failed spectacularly for the past year.

When was the last time Henshaw had a really good game at any level? Six Nations 2018?

At some point we need to stop going on about systems and game plans and what not and just stop picking players who are clearly not playing anywhere near their best.

It did fail. And Henshaw should be by no means favourite for the 12 shirt for the 6Ns as it stands. That doesnt actually change any of what I said though. Just because someone is playing well for their province does not mean they will play well for Ireland. That was simply my point. And new guys coming in do have an element of uncertainty around them. Theres absolutely no point in rehashing old discussions about 2019 because none of it changes any of the above one way or the other.

awec

molloyjh wrote: »

He has earned a call up to the squad to see how he fits in. Nothing else. We need to stop talking about selecting players for Ireland based on how they perform with a different team, beside different players, playing a different way at a different level.

Players perform well and get a call up. Some perform so well that they push themselves into poll position for a jersey. Then the coaches see how guys fit the game plan, how they gel with one another etc. From those training camps they essentially make educated guesses about how a player will step up to Test rugby (assuming they havent before or at least in some time).

That's why a lot of coaches around the world often stick with tried and trusted, because they know that these guys can play at that level and it takes a lot of the guesswork out of selection. McCloskeys form for Ulster means the square root of absolutely f--- all if he doesnt gel with Sexton and/or Ringrose or struggles with the increased pace of the game at Test level. They'll find out how he fits in during training and will select based on that.

Well, with all due respect, this approach failed spectacularly for the past year.

When was the last time Henshaw had a really good game at any level?

molloyjh

Dubinusa wrote: »

I think McCloskey has earned the start.

He has earned a call up to the squad to see how he fits in. Nothing else. We need to stop talking about selecting players for Ireland based on how they perform with a different team, beside different players, playing a different way at a different level.

Players perform well and get a call up. Some perform so well that they push themselves into poll position for a jersey. Then the coaches see how guys fit the game plan, how they gel with one another etc. From those training camps they essentially make educated guesses about how a player will step up to Test rugby (assuming they havent before or at least in some time).

That's why a lot of coaches around the world often stick with tried and trusted, because they know that these guys can play at that level and it takes a lot of the guesswork out of selection. McCloskeys form for Ulster means the square root of absolutely f--- all if he doesnt gel with Sexton and/or Ringrose or struggles with the increased pace of the game at Test level. They'll find out how he fits in during training and will select based on that.

aloooof

Interested Observer wrote: »

I'm fascinated to see this squad if it is actually out on Wednesday. Hopefully Farrell has a slightly less paranoid way of working with the press than Schmidt did.

Gerry Thornley has said it's been suggested to the press that Farrell will release the squad for the Scotland game on the Tuesday before the match, so that definitely seems like a change in that regard.

Dubinusa

I think McCloskey has earned the start. He's been really good. Ringrose is just way above everyone else.
Sexton injured is a blessing time to bed other lads and see them in the arena. It's been a good start to the year after the rwc. Many lads have stepped up and played themselves into the mix. That being said what will Farrell do? Does he stay with the gash we saw in Japan? Does he flip the team on their head and start anew!
Can't wait for the announcement!

Squidgy Black

I just hope Andy hadn't been going for lunch with Joe too often over the last few years and gotten into a routine of these 2-3pm lunch times....

[Deleted User]

I'm fascinated to see this squad if it is actually out on Wednesday. Hopefully Farrell has a slightly less paranoid way of working with the press than Schmidt did.

whatawaster

Luke Marshall is only 28, and has been very good this season, though at 13. I wouldn't have him out of the picture by any means.

Ringrose is a shoe-in for 13, he's playing great rugby. Then there are a lot of guys vying for 12 and squad places - Henshaw, Aki, Farrell, Scannell, McCloskey, Marshall, Addison, T Farrell.

I would start McCloskey and Ringrose against Scotland.

bilston

Clegg wrote: »

We're still looking for a 12 that's comfortable enough on the ball to be a distributor and playmaker. Ringrose has taken on some of those duties, but you'd rather he be the one put through gaps than the one creating the gaps for others.

I had a lot of hope that Luke Marshall would step into that playmaking role. He had all the attributes to be a great 12, but he could never put it all together.

On the face of it a playmaker at 12 might be the way Ireland go based on the fact that that was exactly what Mike Catt was. I don't know that we have an obvious player to do that though. I agree Marshall was someone who a few years ago you'd have said had the quality to do it, but it hasn't worked out. Rory Scannell is the only other one I can think of but I don't think he is at test level.

Therefore we probably have to go the less subtle route.

Bazzo

Brewster wrote: »

I honestly don’t think it will come into it. Aki is unlikely to bench either. So unless he starts at 12, he will be holding tackle bags. Addison is looking good for bench option.

You're mistaking what I said. I'm not peddling the nonsense idea that he'll be picked because he's on a central contract, I'm saying he wouldn't have got a central contract if he wasn't seen as a central player. His form in the matches he's played since getting back from the world cup has also been good and he offers a balance somewhere between McCloskey and Henshaw.

Brewster

Bazzo wrote: »

Aki was handed a 3 year central contract 6 weeks ago under Farrell. I seriously doubt that was with the idea of him holding tackle bags and picking up a few mins in case of injury and I also doubt that the new head coach had no say in the matter.

I honestly don’t think it will come into it. Aki is unlikely to bench either. So unless he starts at 12, he will be holding tackle bags. Addison is looking good for bench option.

Clegg

We're still looking for a 12 that's comfortable enough on the ball to be a distributor and playmaker. Ringrose has taken on some of those duties, but you'd rather he be the one put through gaps than the one creating the gaps for others.

I had a lot of hope that Luke Marshall would step into that playmaking role. He had all the attributes to be a great 12, but he could never put it all together.

Bazzo

Aki was handed a 3 year central contract 6 weeks ago under Farrell. I seriously doubt that was with the idea of him holding tackle bags and picking up a few mins in case of injury and I also doubt that the new head coach had no say in the matter.

Brewster

Interested Observer wrote: »

I certainly wouldn't be making a decision on McCloskey based on that overlap - if Farrell has him pencilled in then I definitely wouldn't be removing him based on it, but a concern I have about him is he just looks slow at times to me. If everything at international level happens a bit quicker than at provincial then I wonder if it's something that could be exploited.

Personally I don't think we have an outstanding candidate at 12. We have 3 good candidates in Henshaw, McCloskey and Aki, maybe Farrell too if he's being considered at 12. I personally don't really care who gets picked of them. Ringrose definitely to start at 13 imo.

Ringrose a shoe in. Not up for discussion, debate is at 12. As I say I think he will go with Henshaw, with McCloskey to get a run at some stage. That said, if McCloskey did start Scotland game, Henshaw could have no complaints. In my opinion, I think Aki has slipped to 3rd choice 12.

Bazzo

Yeah_Right wrote: »

I've seen a few fans mention Thornbury. I admit that I haven't seen a lot of him but the Connacht matches that I have watched, he didn't stand out. Is he any good? Did he go to NZ and play a season of Heartland or NPC rugby?

He's good in the way that Toner is good. He'll clean up dirty ball, hit rucks and is s good set piece lock. Think he's 1st/2nd for lineout steals in the league despite missing a chunk of the season to injury. Played a season in the heartland alright.

Yeah_Right

I've seen a few fans mention Thornbury. I admit that I haven't seen a lot of him but the Connacht matches that I have watched, he didn't stand out. Is he any good? Did he go to NZ and play a season of Heartland or NPC rugby?

[Deleted User]

I certainly wouldn't be making a decision on McCloskey based on that overlap - if Farrell has him pencilled in then I definitely wouldn't be removing him based on it, but a concern I have about him is he just looks slow at times to me. If everything at international level happens a bit quicker than at provincial then I wonder if it's something that could be exploited.

Personally I don't think we have an outstanding candidate at 12. We have 3 good candidates in Henshaw, McCloskey and Aki, maybe Farrell too if he's being considered at 12. I personally don't really care who gets picked of them. Ringrose definitely to start at 13 imo.

Paul Smeenus

Clegg wrote: »

Aki is the only one who can challenge Ringrose, I think. McCloskey is a 12 through and through and Henshaw will never get enough game time at 13 to develop in that position.

And really, nobody comes close to Ringrose quality wise anyway. There were some doubts over his form going into the world cup, but he was our best performing back in the competition and has continued his good form since then. He's taken on more responsibility for playmaking and it's clear that Leinster are using his running ability more this season. He's breaking the line so often from 13 now. When you've a dominant pack it makes things easier, but you still need the ability to spot the gap and get through it. Not very many have that.

That doesn't mean he'll be an automatic starter ofc. Farrell and Catt could have a different idea of how they want their centres to play. But right now Ringrose is possibly the best centre in Europe.

Indeed, it wasn't that long ago Ringrose was squandering potentially match-winning overlaps himself against Sarries. It happens.

Former Former

bilston wrote: »

Ulster only play s*** teams then?

No, but apart from Clermont they have faced pretty mediocre teams in Europe and the PRO14 means very little when judging form for internationals.

It's just hard to put his performances in context, that's all. You could make the same argument for a lot of players on the fringes of the national setup.

arsebiscuits1

McCloskeys passing ability has been what has let him down in the past in terms of selection.

It's clearly something he has been working on as this season has seen him pick out some lovely passes but for me it is still a deficiency in his game. Henshaw and Aki are both quite adept at identifying when to pass/ carry or also to draw and pass.

For me what Stu brings to the table far outweighs what he doesn't. He's been massive

Brewster

McCloskey should have passed the ball on Saturday. It was the first minute of the game, and given what he has contributed in recent times, I wouldn’t hang the lad out to dry on this. He is fantastic offloader of the ball and he could work very well Ringrose. His ability to tie in defenders and create space for others, perhaps Ringrose, is second to none. He is better than Henshaw and Aki in this regard. Great options for Farrell. He is not going to be on the bench due to his lack of versatility, he starts or not. I think Farrell will give him a start at some stage, possibly against Italy. I suspect Henshaw will start against Scotland.

Clegg

Former Former wrote: »

Henshaw was only OK yesterday. Aki hasn't been great. McCloskey has looked good but against questionable opposition.

It could well come down to performance in training.

It will also be interesting to see if any of the above are tried at 13 or if Ringrose is the anointed one.

Aki is the only one who can challenge Ringrose, I think. McCloskey is a 12 through and through and Henshaw will never get enough game time at 13 to develop in that position.

And really, nobody comes close to Ringrose quality wise anyway. There were some doubts over his form going into the world cup, but he was our best performing back in the competition and has continued his good form since then. He's taken on more responsibility for playmaking and it's clear that Leinster are using his running ability more this season. He's breaking the line so often from 13 now. When you've a dominant pack it makes things easier, but you still need the ability to spot the gap and get through it. Not very many have that.

That doesn't mean he'll be an automatic starter ofc. Farrell and Catt could have a different idea of how they want their centres to play. But right now Ringrose is possibly the best centre in Europe.

bilston

Former Former wrote: »

Henshaw was only OK yesterday. Aki hasn't been great. McCloskey has looked good but against questionable opposition.

Ulster only play s*** teams then?

Eod100

Squad out Wednesday apparently. Thought it might be after next weekend. https://twitter.com/sineadkissane/status/1216664163751211008?s=19

kilns

It is hard to believe that at this stage it would be a shock if a Munster player makes the starting 15 for Scotland.

Hopefully Murray can rediscover himself but apart from that there is no real hope coming out of Munster.

The days of POM are numbered I think and rightly so

Bazzo

stephen_n wrote: »

Everyone seems to be going for Henshaw. With very little gametime recently to measure him by, it’s hard to tell. Felt he had a very mixed bag yesterday though. I would have Aki or McCloskey ahead of him at present.

I think it's down to Aki or McCloskey at the moment myself. Depends what Farrell wants from his 12. McCloskey probably a little better at gaining meters in contact and offloading but Aki is hardly a slouch in either of those. In defence Aki puts up huge numbers of tackles every game, usually among Connacht's top 2 or 3, and also poses a big jackal threat and gets stuck into securing own ball at the breakdown. McCloskey has always been a good man for the choke tackle but that seems to have fallen a bit out of favour these days.

Former Former

Henshaw was only OK yesterday. Aki hasn't been great. McCloskey has looked good but against questionable opposition.

It could well come down to performance in training.

It will also be interesting to see if any of the above are tried at 13 or if Ringrose is the anointed one.

stephen_n

Everyone seems to be going for Henshaw. With very little gametime recently to measure him by, it’s hard to tell. Felt he had a very mixed bag yesterday though. I would have Aki or McCloskey ahead of him at present.

Utah_Saint

errlloyd wrote: »

.

McCloskey may never be in enough space to ruin an overlap in a crucial 6 nations game. But he will probably be carrying into traffic 8-12 times a match. He can add value on that every single time. His abilty to create momentum where none existed before is also valuable.

Yeah - his value is probably a bit different to the other 12's. I suppose it comes down to style of play the coach wants.