Abortion Discussion, Part the Fourth

wench wrote: »

Interesting article on the German abortion situation, where long dormant anti abortion laws are being dragged back into use by pro-lifers
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jan/08/abortion-law-germany-nazis-women

The closing quote underlining the complete reversal of the situation here

but the reality is that women from Germany, Poland, Malta etc who need to travel go to Netherlands or UK. Nobody's going to travel over here for a 3 day wait, and major hassle if they think you're close to ten weeks even though the law is 12.

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

I really don't think so (and my wife was a T4Y canvasser) - a lot of people in the middle ground had doubts about why "on demand" :rolleyes: and at least 12 weeks were necessary

In Her Shoes, knocking on doors, media coverage, and getting people talking about their experiences with FFA, miscarriage and yes abortion were absolutely necessary.

Just a few years ago when POLDPA was being brought in (a huge fuss over nothing) many political commentators were saying that they couldn't envisage the 8th being repealed, "middle Ireland" would never vote for it etc etc

I agree.
I was involved in the T4Y campaign and we felt it would be close enough to go either way but we felt we had a real chance of winning it albeit by just a percentage point or 2.

I have to say tho that it wasn't only that we 'won' the argument - the Pro-Life side lost it due to staggering mis-reading of the Irish electorate.
They employed too many of the same tactics from '83 (I remember them well) not realising this is no longer Ireland of the Moving Statues and All Powerful Pulpit. They were shrill, judgmental, lacked empathy, and employed grotesque and tasteless tactics.
I think what won it for Repeal was the courage of the women and men who had been affected in very real and terrible ways by the 8th going public with their stories. They put not just a human face on it - but real names, real lives, real tragedies. That is what works with the Irish electorate.

In short, telling the electorate the truth worked.

[Deleted User]

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I agree.
I was involved in the T4Y campaign and we felt it would be close enough to go either way but we felt we had a real chance of winning it albeit by just a percentage point or 2.

I have to say tho that it wasn't only that we 'won' the argument - the Pro-Life side lost it due to staggering mis-reading of the Irish electorate.
They employed too many of the same tactics from '83 (I remember them well) not realising this is no longer Ireland of the Moving Statues and All Powerful Pulpit. They were shrill, judgmental, lacked empathy, and employed grotesque and tasteless tactics.
I think what won it for Repeal was the courage of the women and men who had been affected in very real and terrible ways by the 8th going public with their stories. They put not just a human face on it - but real names, real lives, real tragedies. That is what works with the Irish electorate.

Well some of their campaigners managed to bring it to a new low with the the guff that it wasn't real Irish women who want abortion or who were traveling at the time to the U.K. for abortions, imagine being that stupid/twisted to say that on the national broadcaster.

Doesn't really surprise me that some of the leadership of the pro life groups have jumped on the anti immigrant bandwagon along with Justin Barrett and his national party.

Igotadose

Now that the government's come back in NI, what, if anything, will happen to the new abortion rights? Will 'they' attempt to screw with the new laws?

I kind of think the pro-life will take a shot at it, at least. It's their way.

NI "politics" is fcuked up, I had typed out a response and then before hitting send I realised that I really don't care - DUP, SF and all the rest are just w@nkers, let them at it in their little Westminster-funded bigoted religious sh!ithole, I want no part of it and no part of my taxes funding it.

lazygal

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

NI "politics" is fcuked up, I had typed out a response and then before hitting send I realised that I really don't care - DUP, SF and all the rest are just w@nkers, let them at it in their little Westminster-funded bigoted religious sh!ithole, I want no part of it and no part of my taxes funding it.

I have zero interest in a united Ireland. No way do I want to absorb all the nutters with their flag, marching and identity obsessions.

Igotadose

lazygal wrote: »

I have zero interest in a united Ireland. No way do I want to absorb all the nutters with their flag, marching and identity obsessions.

There are daily threads elsewhere here on this subject:) Trying to bring the discussion back, should we in Ireland be concerned with possible compromise to recently-gained abortion rights in NI? Are the pro-life stirring things up yet now that they've finally got their government reconstituted? That government has a tonne to do given it's let it all fester for 3 years. Recall that there was a stunt when the abortion regulations were about to change where the DUP tried to finagle a quorum to prove they had a government and hence the laws wouldn't come into effect. Fortunately they failed.

But, pro-life is extremely well financed from the US and the RCC and I imagine they're at least strategizing now. Be interested in others thoughts on how this might play out and what to watch for in the upcoming months.

Igotadose

Recent study debunks the 'abortion regret' lie that's making the rounds. No surprises here, earlier studies had 96% don't regret, now 99%.

https://www.salon.com/2020/01/12/debunking-the-abortion-regret-narrative-our-data-shows-women-feel-relief-not-regret/

smacl

Igotadose wrote: »

There are daily threads elsewhere here on this subject:) Trying to bring the discussion back, should we in Ireland be concerned with possible compromise to recently-gained abortion rights in NI? Are the pro-life stirring things up yet now that they've finally got their government reconstituted? That government has a tonne to do given it's let it all fester for 3 years. Recall that there was a stunt when the abortion regulations were about to change where the DUP tried to finagle a quorum to prove they had a government and hence the laws wouldn't come into effect. Fortunately they failed.

But, pro-life is extremely well financed from the US and the RCC and I imagine they're at least strategizing now. Be interested in others thoughts on how this might play out and what to watch for in the upcoming months.

I'd be very much on the same page as Hotblack and Layzgal on this one. Excessive involvement in politics in NI by the ROI, including how they approach abortion, is huge potential resource sink for little or no return. Just as I think we should be intolerant of foreign attempts to influence our decisions locally on these issues I'd question whether we should be attempting to exert influence in foreign jurisdictions. Should there ever be a majority desire for those in the North to join as a united Ireland and a similar majority here, this obviously changes.

Igotadose wrote: »

There are daily threads elsewhere here on this subject:) Trying to bring the discussion back, should we in Ireland be concerned with possible compromise to recently-gained abortion rights in NI? Are the pro-life stirring things up yet now that they've finally got their government reconstituted? That government has a tonne to do given it's let it all fester for 3 years. Recall that there was a stunt when the abortion regulations were about to change where the DUP tried to finagle a quorum to prove they had a government and hence the laws wouldn't come into effect. Fortunately they failed.

But, pro-life is extremely well financed from the US and the RCC and I imagine they're at least strategizing now. Be interested in others thoughts on how this might play out and what to watch for in the upcoming months.

I wonder how much control the NI government will have over the regulations due to come in at the end of March. Presumably they can't overturn Westminster law entirely and there will have to be an 'on demand' element at the core of the regulations. Beyond that I suppose the DUP will try to make the regulations as restrictive as possible and SF will push back against them.

aloyisious

Unless something miraculous happens, with the pending election I think you can forget about any laws restricting protests outside hospitals or clinics for the time being.

Bredabe

aloyisious wrote: »

Unless something miraculous happens, with the pending election I think you can forget about any laws restricting protests outside hospitals or clinics for the time being.

One to bring up on the doorsteps then, assuming they have the goolies to door to door canvas.

aloyisious wrote: »

Unless something miraculous happens, with the pending election I think you can forget about any laws restricting protests outside hospitals or clinics for the time being.

https://www.thejournal.ie/protests-exclusion-zones-abortion-ireland-4956281-Jan2020/

With overwhelming public support for such 'exclusion zones' I'd say whatever government gets in after the election would be minded to bring in these laws fairly promptly

One would hope so, but we have to remember it was only public pressure which brought about the referendum in the first place, if it had been left up to the politicians they wouldn't have touched the issue with a bargepole - remember how it took them 21 years to legislate for the X case?

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

One would hope so, but we have to remember it was only public pressure which brought about the referendum in the first place, if it had been left up to the politicians they wouldn't have touched the issue with a bargepole - remember how it took them 21 years to legislate for the X case?

Not an issue a new FF government would be keen to see near the top of its in-tray, you would think. But maybe they will see it as an opportunity to demonstrate their newfound pro-choice credentials. Wouldn't be surprised if Stephen Donnelly made a commitment ahead of the election...

Pherekydes

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

Wouldn't be surprised if Stephen Donnelly made a commitment ahead of the election...

To move to which party?

Cabaal

Had my first canvasser last night and they did something I noticed during the last lot of elections... They didn't ring the doorbell.

I'm fairly sure my together for yes sticker plays a part in how they act as I've previously seen canvassers during the local elections point at it and other walk up the driveway and then walk away without knocking/ringing.

Peregrinus

Cabaal wrote: »

Had my first canvasser last night and they did something I noticed during the last lot of elections... They didn't ring the doorbell.

I'm fairly sure my together for yes sticker plays a part in how they act as I've previously seen canvassers during the local elections point at it and other walk up the driveway and then walk away without knocking/ringing.

Depends on which party they are canvassing for, obviously.

But the art of the canvas is to spend your time wisely. You don't want to spend hours on the doorsteps of people who would never vote for you in a fit, but you also don't want to spend hours with people who are already going to vote for you anyway. You want to focus your time and effort on those who might be receptive to your party/candidates/policies/stance, but aren't committed.

dvdman1

The abortion debate has to be the most depressing public debate.

Its like taking albert einstein and giving him a lobotomy before all his great achievements. But on the bright side his parents can afford a new car...yeehaay

ohnonotgmail

dvdman1 wrote: »

The abortion debate has to be the most depressing public debate.

Its like taking albert einstein and giving him a lobotomy before all his great achievements. But on the bright side his parents can afford a new car...yeehaay

I'm sure that made sense to you when you wrote it

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

I'm sure that made sense to you when you wrote it

I doubt that.

dvdman1 wrote: »

The abortion debate has to be the most depressing public debate.

Its like taking albert einstein and giving him a lobotomy before all his great achievements. But on the bright side his parents can afford a new car...yeehaay

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

I'm sure that made sense to you when you wrote it

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

I doubt that.

I suspect it's a spin on the old 'aborted child could grow up to cure cancer'/'children are aborted so women can go on holiday' tropes.

Funny how rarely it's things like 'Stalin would have never been alive to send people to Siberian gulags'/'family saves money by not having to pay for woman's funeral'.

Strange that...

ohnonotgmail

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I suspect it's a spin on the old 'aborted child could grow up to cure cancer'/'children are aborted so women can go on holiday' tropes.

Funny how rarely it's things like 'Stalin would have never been alive to send people to Siberian gulags'/'family saves money by not having to pay for woman's funeral'.

Strange that...

ah, i see. a particularly stupid argument.

smacl

dvdman1 wrote: »

The abortion debate has to be the most depressing public debate.

Its like taking albert einstein and giving him a lobotomy before all his great achievements. But on the bright side his parents can afford a new car...yeehaay

And yet here you are giving us your 2c worth as your first post in this forum for some years. Why is that?

B0jangles

Pherekydes wrote: »

To move to which party?

As an aside, I will be very interested to see how well he does; there is and was a hell of a lot of anger and resentment locally after the bait-and-switch he pulled last time around.
I've also heard that he and his 'team' are deeply resented as blow-ins by a good many long-term local fianna fáil party members.

I know I gave him pretty high preference last time, and the very thought of being tricked into voting fianna fáil makes me slightly nauseous.

B0jangles wrote: »

As an aside, I will be very interested to see how well he does; there is and was a hell of a lot of anger and resentment locally after the bait-and-switch he pulled last time around.
I've also heard that he and his 'team' are deeply resented as blow-ins by a good many long-term local fianna fáil party members.

I know I gave him pretty high preference last time, and the very thought of being tricked into voting fianna fáil makes me slightly nauseous.

I have long thought if someone elected for Party A jumps ship and joins Party B it should trigger a by election.
Also if a change in party leadership means a new Taoiseach - should be a GE.

lazygal

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/high-court/hse-disputes-extent-of-damages-sought-over-pregnant-woman-kept-on-life-support-1.4146914?mode=amp&utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

The eighth amendment continues to haunt Ireland's families and will do for generations.

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

So there would be nothing inappropriate or 'jumping the gun' if a political party were to set out what changes it would like to see to the legislation in advance of the review and indeed of the general election? If a TD thinks the three-day waiting period is a bad thing and should be removed from the legislation, it wouldn't be contrary to 'political etiquette' for them to come out and say that now?

https://www.thesun.ie/news/5005264/fianna-fail-campaign-abortion-referendum-election/
FF seemingly on the end of a social media campaign claiming it's planning to reverse the result of the abortion referendum.

This is why I was wondering if it would be appropriate for a party to specify exactly what it planned to do about abortion law ahead of the election. FF's response to the campaign could be seen as somewhat vague and ambiguous.

“This is nothing more than another dirty tricks campaign which is not based in fact. Fianna Fáil has absolutely no plan to reverse the abortion legislation.

“The majority of Irish people voted in favour of repealing the Eighth Amendment and this is now reflected in the legislation.

"The party has no intention to change the law allowing abortion in Ireland."