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Donald Trump Presidency discussion Thread VII (threadbanned users listed in OP)

ancapailldorcha

This thread is a continuation of the megathreads for discussing the presidency of Donald Trump and any matters which relate to this.

Please keep discussion civil and constructive and bear the charter in mind before posting.

Update 16/5/20:

Threadbanned users:

Outlaw Pete
everlast75
mcmoustache
BonnieSituation

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Quin_Dub

Manic Moran wrote: »

The foreign operations of Quds and IRGC have been well known in public domain circles for many years. I'm not responsible if you don't keep up with that aspect of current events. . It's the cost of doing business. We kill their soldiers, they kill ours. Business as normal. If the Soviets killed a CIA commander in Afghanistan in company with the Mujahadeen, there wouldn't have been a particular outcry. After all, was there proof there was ever a CIA operative in Afghanistan in the mid-1980s? Do you doubt that there was such a person?

Exactly - So why take the action now and not before or later??

The concern is less about the action and more about the nature of the attack and the timing.

Might it have something to do with this?

President Donald Trump told associates that he assassinated Iran's top military leader last week in part to appease Republican senators who will play a crucial role in his Senate impeachment trial, The Wall Street Journal reported on Thursday.

What's fairly obvious is that Trump (or one of his lackeys) asked the question "Who's a good target we can take out that will distract everyone from Impeachment and Boltons offer to testify?"

Solemani was on the top of lots of peoples lists for years of actions , but the obfuscation and changing stories over the "imminent threat" plot line just re-enforce the perception that this was done purely to distract the world.

StringerBell

I see Iran has publicly accepted responsibility for the downed plane. Good to see, such a sad loss of life and a big own goal for Iran here in an otherwise very well played response.

everlast75

https://twitter.com/jdawsey1/status/1215787175888945152?s=19

Matt Gaetz, who I despise incidentally, gets a shed load of abuse for taking the traditional conservative line.

He just got a taste of the realisation that it's no longer the Republican party- its the party of Trump.

StringerBell

Very surprised he was urging people to go against trump. He is one of the grade A boot lickers

marno21

https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/status/1215998705557475328

Anyone want to have a go at explaining how the terms “radical” and “do nothing” make sense together ?

Leroy42

I love the way he talks about worst in history. He thinks that guy is worst terrorist in history? Or Pelosi is worst speaker?

I would love him to give a run down of his rankings and the measurement system he used.

AbusesToilets

smurgen wrote: »

The burden of proof rests upon those making accusations.

There's about 14 years of combat activities in Iraq, and more lately Afghanistan to demonstrate his efforts to direct military efforts against the US forces. That's to say nothing of Yemen, Syria or Lebanon. He was a General in charge of Iran's IRGC, not some suit wearing minister.

26000 Elephants

Leroy42 wrote: »

I love the way he talks about worst in history. He thinks that guy is worst terrorist in history? Or Pelosi is worst speaker?

I would love him to give a run down of his rankings and the measurement system he used.

He has a point. Theres a good chance he will end up in jail as a result of Pelosi's determined efforts, so from his perspective, she really is the worst! Remember - it's all projection with Trump, he's scared shirtless of her.

Christy42

AbusesToilets wrote: »

There's about 14 years of combat activities in Iraq, and more lately Afghanistan to demonstrate his efforts to direct military efforts against the US forces. That's to say nothing of Yemen, Syria or Lebanon. He was a General in charge of Iran's IRGC, not some suit wearing minister.

I mean you have the same for the US? (Well a bit longer but anyway).

I want proof of the imminent threat. I was told there was an imminent threat (that apparently no one else had the plans to and can't go ahead now). No argued that Saddam was a despot. However we were lied to about the WMDs. Now we are being lied to about this threat (which we know was imminent but we also don't know when).

In other news government hand outs increase further with Trump as billions of social aid has been promised to big farming corporations. Wonder why Republicans never care about these government hand outs...

https://mobile.twitter.com/thehill/status/1215480885165875200

StringerBell

It's funny in a tragic way how the US can never see how much worse they make situations. Even just taking Iran, who even remembers or references that they were a democracy about 70 years ago before the CIA took out their democratically elected prime minister to install their own dictator?

Then after the people finally had enough of the Shah after about 25 years or so and he had plundered the treasury and deposited god knows how many millions, billions probably in the US coffers they took getting their guy thrown out on his ass and supplied weapons both conventional and chemical to Saddam Hussein to invade Iran and start the Iran Iraq war.

Who is a terrorist often depends on your point of view I suppose.

TL Dr I am sure that the US will continue to make things worse in the region before it gets better...trump or no trump.

eire4

everlast75 wrote: »

https://twitter.com/jdawsey1/status/1215787175888945152?s=19

Matt Gaetz, who I despise incidentally, gets a shed load of abuse for taking the traditional conservative line.

He just got a taste of the realisation that it's no longer the Republican party- its the party of Trump.

I am going to disagree slightly although I totally get where your coming from. But for me this is the Republican Party. If they want a different party that can stand up and say so. But the reality is this is where the Republican Party are today especially economically as they have been lurching further and further to the right especially since Regan started really pushing their Freedmanite disaster capitalism economics. It is just the current head of the party is very unpalatable for a taste test so to speak but he is very much in line with who the Republican Party are and have been economically and even when it comes to the fear and the hate he spews forth.

Midlife

StringerBell wrote: »

It's funny in a tragic way how the US can never see how much worse they make situations. Even just taking Iran, who even remembers or references that they were a democracy about 70 years ago before the CIA took out their democratically elected prime minister to install their own dictator?

Then after the people finally had enough of the Shah after about 25 years or so and he had plundered the treasury and deposited god knows how many millions, billions probably in the US coffers they took getting their guy thrown out on his ass and supplied weapons both conventional and chemical to Saddam Hussein to invade Iran and start the Iran Iraq war.

Who is a terrorist often depends on your point of view I suppose.

TL Dr I am sure that the US will continue to make things worse in the region before it gets better...trump or no trump.

They're more afraid of a stable united middle east than the current version. That's why they hate Iran. There is nothing they can blame them for that their allies are not equally guilty of. This joke of an attempt to manufacture an excuse for the recent assissanation is pretty lame.

He was killed because Iran don't play ball. If you bow down before the US, you can commit an atrocities you like.

reg114

marno21 wrote: »

https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/status/1215998705557475328

Anyone want to have a go at explaining how the terms “radical” and “do nothing” make sense together ?

Its been said often but its so very true, the yanks have some gall pointing an accusatory finger at anyone when it comes to terrorism. They are the biggest example of state sponsored terrorists the world has ever seen and its well documented if you study the history of the CIA even at the most cursory of levels.

There is nowhere on the planet where the Americans have involved themselves that has yielded a positive outcome other than that during the second world war. Sadly it was their role in WII that has emboldened as the guardians of the free world. Its a total falesy. All of America's interventions are purely strategic devoid totally of any humanitarianism.

Look for example at The whitehouse's relationship with the Saudis who have obliterated Yemen in recent years resulting in genocide and famine. What has Trump done to counter this ? Absolutely nothing. MBS rules saudi with an iron fist , thinking nothing of bumping off dissenters under the noses of the world safe in the knowledge the yanks will do nothing . Its revolting but what do you expect from a horse only a kick ?

Unfortunately as vile as Trump is, he is a master communicator, speaking directly to his base and I believe he will be elected again and this inspite of the fact that Trump has built only 72 miles of his border wall ... and has done nothing to replace obamacare

eire4

StringerBell wrote: »

It's funny in a tragic way how the US can never see how much worse they make situations. Even just taking Iran, who even remembers or references that they were a democracy about 70 years ago before the CIA took out their democratically elected prime minister to install their own dictator?

Then after the people finally had enough of the Shah after about 25 years or so and he had plundered the treasury and deposited god knows how many millions, billions probably in the US coffers they took getting their guy thrown out on his ass and supplied weapons both conventional and chemical to Saddam Hussein to invade Iran and start the Iran Iraq war.

Who is a terrorist often depends on your point of view I suppose.

TL Dr I am sure that the US will continue to make things worse in the region before it gets better...trump or no trump.

Absolutely spot on with this post. I could not agree more. The key is what you say at the end this is not about who is in power in the US right now although he has taken it up a notch but the fact is both Democratic and Republican administrations consistently have bullied threatened governments even indirectly murdered the leaders until said countries behave how they want them to behave which typically is in a far right economic disaster capitalist fashion to the benefit of local elite and of course major US corporations and to the detriment of the vast majority of the population. The disgusting history that the US has with regard to Iran is a classic example of who the US is as an actor on the world stage and sadly it is not as a force for good.

The behaviours taught at their infamous school of the Americans formerly in Panama and now with a name change in Georgia is another aspect of how they work training key officials and leaders of Latin American countries how to torture, murder and rape so as to control power and run their countries as US puppet governments just as they ran the shah in Iran as a corrupt US puppet government. The record of the graduates of this infamous school of the Americans is a litany of human rights abuses and even out right war crimes.

26000 Elephants

Manic Moran wrote: »

The foreign operations of Quds and IRGC have been well known in public domain circles for many years. .......?

Your problem is that you argue, as an American, from some perceived moral high ground. But there isnt any: you are acting in the same manner and extent as the Iranians, only you are constantly seeing from only one side. To most neutrals, you are as bad as each other. The fact that your CIA/mujahadeen analogy came so easily should clearly signal that to you.

drunkmonkey

Seems the Iranians as expected are kicking up on their leaders. Viva la revolución!

https://twitter.com/Ali_Az_Abadan/status/1216023243418677249?s=20

volchitsa

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Seems the Iranians as expected are kicking up on their leaders. Viva la revolución!

You realise they were doing this already and Soleimani's murder initially united them? The Americans can hardly congratulate themselves if the Iranians finally end up back in the same position they were in before the killing.

droidus

26000 Elephants wrote: »

Your problem is that you argue, as an American, from some perceived moral high ground. But there isnt any: you are acting in the same manner and extent as the Iranians, only you are constantly seeing from only one side. To most neutrals, you are as bad as each other. The fact that your CIA/mujahadeen analogy came so easily should clearly signal that to you.

In fact, the US is generally perceived as being much worse than Iran, repeatedly being seen as the greatest threat to world peace in international surveys. Rightfully so, as deaths from direct and proxy US military action since WWII numbers in the tens of millions. That's before you even get into economic warfare and consistent support for brutally oppressive regimes.

Trump is just the final nail in the coffin of the myth of US benevolence.

drunkmonkey

Isn't Trump giving less support to regimes. Like he takes out the Iranian General and avoids people getting killed and he's seemingly unhinged yet Obama propped them up with billions in cash and he's seen as a good guy.
How can we have a safer world when the only guy doing something about the bad guys is constantly retarded by leftist media who would rather more people die as long as nobody has to take a stance. I don't get it.

droidus

lol. Yeah, you can tell that Trump hates 'the bad guys' by the people he praises and supports - Putin, The Saudis, Erdogan, Bolsonaro, Netanyahu... paragons of virtue all.

drunkmonkey

droidus wrote: »

lol. Yeah, you can tell that Trump hates 'the bad guys' by the people he praises and supports - Putin, The Saudis, Erdogan, Bolsonaro, Netanyahu... paragons of virtue all.

I don't see anyone else stepping up. Cast the first stone etc

eire4

26000 Elephants wrote: »

Your problem is that you argue, as an American, from some perceived moral high ground. But there isnt any: you are acting in the same manner and extent as the Iranians, only you are constantly seeing from only one side. To most neutrals, you are as bad as each other. The fact that your CIA/mujahadeen analogy came so easily should clearly signal that to you.

That really is the bottom line. The idea that the Americans are the good guys is absolutely risible based on their own behaviour and that of the countries like Saudi Arabia that they are allied with in the middle east.

Leroy42

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Isn't Trump giving less support to regimes. Like he takes out the Iranian General and avoids people getting killed and he's seemingly unhinged yet Obama propped them up with billions in cash and he's seen as a good guy.

How many billions did Obama give to Iran and when?

drunkmonkey wrote: »

How can we have a safer world when the only guy doing something about the bad guys is constantly retarded by leftist media who would rather more people die as long as nobody has to take a stance. I don't get it.

What bad guys has he taken out? Suilimani sure, but clearly not based on any actual evidence of an imminent threat. But KJU, Putin, Syria, Turkey?

What about the crack down in Hong Kong? Or the China intern camps?

everlast75

Leroy42 wrote: »

How many billions did Obama give to Iran and when?

What bad guys has he taken out? Suilimani sure, but clearly not based on any actual evidence of an imminent threat. But KJU, Putin, Syria, Turkey?

What about the crack down in Hong Kong? Or the China intern camps?

Reverse engineering in technicolour.

If Pompeo says he was an imminent threat, then that's why Trump did it.

Or else it was because of what Graham said - it was retaliation.

Trump could never be wrong of course.

Nothing to do with the Post and other newspapers saying Trump did it in order to secure support from certain Republicans for his impeachment trial....

sid waddell

eire4 wrote: »

That really is the bottom line. The idea that the Americans are the good guys is absolutely risible based on their own behaviour and that of the countries like Saudi Arabia that they are allied with in the middle east.

In terms of the history of US-Iran relations, Iran has been the more sinned against party, and it isn't remotely close, it's pretty much all one way.

drunkmonkey

Leroy42 wrote: »

How many billions did Obama give to Iran and when?

What bad guys has he taken out? Suilimani sure, but clearly not based on any actual evidence of an imminent threat.

What about the crack down in Hong Kong? Or the China intern camps?

Pick a number between 1 and 100 billion. https://www.google.com/amp/s/thehill.com/opinion/white-house/477666-obama-should-apologize-for-shameful-cash-payment-to-iran%3famp

Soleimani was always a threat, he's a very bad guy that should have been terminated years ago. Obama should have taken him out for the Washington incident. It was reason enough let alone what he's responsible for across the middle east.

As for guys he's taken out...I recall a certain beardy guy, had a little club going in the middle east, you might have heard of it, ISIS, maybe your giving Conan credit for that one.

Leroy42

It is really something that we are now supposed to believe the security services, which only recently Trump was claiming the FBI were actively out to get him and that he believed Putin over them.

But now we are supposed to accept that not only are they people Trump trusts, but people we should all trust without any actual evidence.

And it is something that I have personally picked up on recently. Americans have no understanding of how they are viewed in areas like the ME. Many of them seem to have swallowed the line that they are delivering democracy to the world and that their bombs and drone strikes are welcomed by those in the area, well those not killed!

So they have every right to be upset and want retribution for any lost citizens, but any killings they are involved in are simply the costs of democracy. Why can they not see that they way they feel when their soldiers are killed, is the same way that say the Iraqis feel when a drone strike takes out a wedding party.

droidus

Hmmm... ISIS, yeah... Soleimani was described as the 'lynchpin' and 'mastermind' behind their defeat IIRC.

listermint

Manic Moran wrote: »

Is there any reputable source anywhere which indicates that Soleimani was not actively partaking in the organising and supplying for attacks against US and allied forces?

I mean, there's no evidence that OBL was actively about to attack anyone when we violated Pakistani sovereignty to kill him (Did the US have Pakistani permission to do any strikes at all in the country?) but not many people think it was a bad call.

Iran took less than a week to take responsibility for downing a plane full of innocent passengers.

How long did it take the US to do the same.

I mean since we are playing a game of legtimacy and honesty ethics. The US likes to portray itself as holier than now.

What's the answer in years...

Leroy42

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Pick a number between 1 and 100 billion. https://www.google.com/amp/s/thehill.com/opinion/white-house/477666-obama-should-apologize-for-shameful-cash-payment-to-iran%3famp

Soleimani was always a threat, he's a very bad guy that should have been terminated years ago. Obama should have taken him out for the Washington incident. It was reason enough let alone what he's responsible for across the middle east.

As for guys he's taken out...I recall a certain beardy guy, had a little club going in the middle east, you might have heard of it, ISIS, maybe your giving Conan credit for that one.

So you have no actual numbers? You are sending me to an opinion piece?

I'll try again. How many billions did Obama send to Iran and when?

On Soleimani, yet again it isn't that he is dead that is the issue, it is how it was undertaken. First they claimed it was an imminent threat, now you are saying the guy was terrible. But then why is Trump not going after the Chinese with their intern camps? Or the King of Syria. Or what about MLB after the killing of the journalist? Or why has he not demanded that SA answer for so many of the hyjackers on 9/11 coming from there?

But why hasn't he done anything about KJU? He fact along with Putin, Yi he has bigged them up. So it would seem that he isn't really that concerned about evil as you claim.