CrankyHaus wrote: » It's difficult to make sense of your post but in the interests of clarity can you state whether you think this commemoration, in the form proposed by the Government, was a good idea and if so why? I've repeatedly said on this thread that we can acknowledge that many men in the RIC/DMP may have been decent people with limited opportunities doing their best to serve the law under a corrupt and oppressive system. However there is a huge gap between state recognition and remembrance of that and what has been proposed. I believe that this position is shared by most Irish people. However the arguments in favour of the commemoration throughout the thread have been dishonest and misleading. I believe the current line of argument advanced by you and Gormdubhgorm, wherein you focus on the "intolerance" of those opposed to the commemoration and harp on about the "complexities" of our history, is merely the latest permutation of that strategy but by all means if I'm wrong I'd be happy to be corrected.
marieholmfan wrote: » Of course I venerate Connolly Keane was born in London through no fault of his own but his parents promptly rectified the error.I think it is safe to assume that Fergal Keane OBE is just some sort of weird freak.
jimgoose wrote: » Lots of Irish people have. It isn't High Treason, like.
weldoninhio wrote: » BECAUSE. HE. ACCEPTED. AN. O.B.E. :rolleyes:
Bambi wrote: » A List of things Feargal Keane is not:a) Vermin b) A Historian c) Someone who isn't selling a book d) a patriot
marieholmfan wrote: » It f cking is; you should be stripped of citizenship. Northern Catholics who get British Passports because they're cheaper shouldn't ever be entitled to Irish passports.
jimgoose wrote: » Isn't he John B. Keane's nephew? I think the only thing more counter-productive than calling Charlie Flanagan a Tan is getting into all this Achtung! Juden! caper.
FrancieBrady wrote: » Nift wrote: » Could you outline what you mean? A 'long way to go to where, exactly? Again, I will say as clearly as I can...'appeasement and lying about history' is not 'compromise'. Agreeing that you are free to interpret history as you wish but you are not free to ignore historical fact, is 'compromise'. If you look at (and i suggest you look closely) how we approached the 1916 commemorations, we got it majestically and beautifully right...because the advise of the EG was taken and there was full and open discourse in advance of it. I attended 3 years of seminars in the Abbey in the lead up to 2016 that were addressed by a wide range of speakers from here and conflict zones around the world, dealing with remembrance and commemoration.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s88tsIPaLGs&list=PLL-wClLnRBDrKqSlIliDE3WFDLG9EkG2w The result imo was a dignified, inclusive national and local year of reflection and remembrance right across the country that listened to and included all voices. Nobody is trying to 'exclude' the RIC/DMP. What happened here clearly, is that a few government ministers went totally off script and got it spectacularly wrong and unforgivably undid a lot of that good work. P.S. The twittersphere and Facebook are here to stay, I largely enjoy it, and recognise the democracy of it, in a way, but I just simply ignore the bile, from all quarters. In terms of a United Ireland, as i have laid out clearly enough. Yes 1916 commemoration went well. But lets see what happens from now. The civil war one will be interesting. I don't think a minister went off script. We have a cabinet and hundreds of civil servants around them. It was clearly FG policy as Varadkar backed it all. Coveney, who most likely is the next and better FG leader, is waiting in the long grass. Martin was on the fence waiting. Its clearly a tester for them to gauge the mood imo. Now it seem ill judged, particularly before an election. I do take issue with you invoking "the people" constantly though. Like i said its clear there is loads of bile being thrown about around this. I mean we just had somebody say Fergal Keane is tainted. Do you not see how that relates to any problems going froward in a potential new Ireland? If as i propose is a common argument among certain people on the Island.
Nift wrote: » Could you outline what you mean? A 'long way to go to where, exactly? Again, I will say as clearly as I can...'appeasement and lying about history' is not 'compromise'. Agreeing that you are free to interpret history as you wish but you are not free to ignore historical fact, is 'compromise'. If you look at (and i suggest you look closely) how we approached the 1916 commemorations, we got it majestically and beautifully right...because the advise of the EG was taken and there was full and open discourse in advance of it. I attended 3 years of seminars in the Abbey in the lead up to 2016 that were addressed by a wide range of speakers from here and conflict zones around the world, dealing with remembrance and commemoration.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s88tsIPaLGs&list=PLL-wClLnRBDrKqSlIliDE3WFDLG9EkG2w The result imo was a dignified, inclusive national and local year of reflection and remembrance right across the country that listened to and included all voices. Nobody is trying to 'exclude' the RIC/DMP. What happened here clearly, is that a few government ministers went totally off script and got it spectacularly wrong and unforgivably undid a lot of that good work. P.S. The twittersphere and Facebook are here to stay, I largely enjoy it, and recognise the democracy of it, in a way, but I just simply ignore the bile, from all quarters.
Bambi wrote: » Nah.. But we can point and laugh at people who think the French should be running the country now because they have a Norman name and they were told that their great great great great grand daddie got to work in a Castle for Hugh De Grenouille or someone. It's actually fun to see the level of neurotic blather thats comes tumbling out whenever this topic bubbles over And, to be honest, I think a lot of it comes from people who've found out their forefathers were playing for the Crown, which is fairly bizarre and actually the embodiment of what the BlueBlack fella is decrying.
Nift wrote: » https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/ric-row-threatens-to-drag-us-into-a-dangerous-place-1.4133186?mode=sample&auth-failed=1&pw-origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fopinion%2Fmajority-of-ric-men-and-ira-opponents-born-on-the-same-land-1.4133186 Good article from Fergal Keane around it. Makes the point about the social media age. "The age of social media does the opposite. Slogans replace intelligent appraisal. We risk descending into the arid wilderness of name calling. To ask that we take a broader view or tolerate an opposing idea does not merit recourse to catch-calls like West Brit or Blueshirt."
gormdubhgorm wrote: » Cos he was born in London? And yet James Connolly fought with the British army - born in Scotland. and I bet you venerate him? Fergal Keane would have a right laugh at the likes of you.
gormdubhgorm wrote: » Do you realise how silly that sounds. Going by that logic all people with Norman names should be ran out it. If you go back far enough - This is the nub of it I think.
Nift wrote: » But you have responded. And you can't really comprehend, as i don't think any of the opposing views were about the actual commemoration, or in support, rather the outrage/response around it. I myself said what Ferriter suggested was correct. But the level of outrage, less reasoned than Francie has suggested, would point to particular difficulties around a border poll and any post re-unification. Which is of course, poorly as it was done, the reason Flanagan and co are doing it. they hardly have a hard on for the British and the tans as has been suggested. In their mind, long term at that, any say in re-unification, would cement their position in history. Its not rocket science like. They are playing a long game. A very long game, while also trying to prevent serious bloodshed. Which will happen if the likes of you and your smart arse analysis is wide spread. If we had a border poll say after the next election, and democratically, somehow it went through, i would bet my life savings/house on two things happening. 1) bloodshed/riots and 2) Nationalists (not the francie's of the world) blowing their minds at losing some of the symbols of the Republic, hence more bloodshed. Francie was far more tolerant and intelligent in his response than yourself.
marieholmfan wrote: » Fergal Keane accepted an OBE - he's vermin and he's from a family of vermin.
Zebra3 wrote: » You are correct. Extreme British nationalism is horrendous. Sad to see so many on here glorifying it.
Dr. Bre wrote: » St Patrick never drove the snakes out of Ireland- they still here
Nift wrote: » Exactly its a silly stance, and i presume its why you are so ardent on these points. Its why i am. Its hypocrisy. Geroge Bernad Shaw, who we honor said - Nationalism must now be added to the refuse pile of superstitions. We are now citizens of the world, and the man who divides the race into elect Irishmen and reprobate foreign devils (especially Englishmen) had better live on the Blaskets where he can admire himself without disturbance. He was highly critical of Irish rebels. Maybe going by current vernacular we should "cancel" the west brit.
facehugger99 wrote: » I think the Government were using this event as a barometer check on the ROI's willingness to adapt to unification. They certainly got their answer. We are many, many decades away from when a mature conversation can take place on the subject.
gormdubhgorm wrote: » Do you realise how silly that sounds. Going by that logic all people with Norman names should be ran out it. If you go back far enough as they were invaders. Also the descendants of the lads who invited the Vikings in, in the battle of Clontarf should be stripped of any Irish passports immediately. Also FG should not be in government because they are traitors to the republic. DeValera's descendants have also done well for themselves in politics and the judiciary. Despite instigating a civil war. Is that a poisoned tree? Your logic all seems very akin to something from 'der strumer' the creation of 'other' who does not belong with 'us'.
Nift wrote: » you see this is the issue though. Can you trace right back through your family tree and say in your heart of hearts you're untainted. I'd say its not just the wealthy. I know the history of the docklands and inner city Dublin. Many of the people who didn't come from the country during the famine, came from boats across the Irish sea. I mean two famous names you see from North inner city Dublin give you a clue. Hutch, Parrott. There's tons more We have a shared history. Its all tainted if you go down your path. Hence why some of us have an issue, cause its blind hypocrisy. Fergal Keane in all his writings of Ireland and series on rte has done more for this country than any of us.
marieholmfan wrote: » It's clear that the real reason for Fergal Keane's attitude is his 'tainted blood'. It is interesting that joining the RIC was transformative in terms of the Hassett family's social and economic status ; I wonder how many of our most wealthy families are the fruit of the RIC poisoned tree.
facehugger99 wrote: » I think the Government were using this event as a barometer check on the ROI's willingness to adapt to unification. They certainly got their answer. We are many, many decides away from when a mature conversation can take place on the subject.
Nift wrote: » FrancieBrady wrote: » You are obviously a very intelligent and reasonable Republican/Nationalist. I respect that. I have no issue with that. But seriously this isn't the case if you take a cursory glance at any journal comments, reddit go to a pub in the inner city (which i do) or even the suburbs etc. I mean i know Mary Lou and a few of her mates went to private schools which probably makes them reasonable/enlightened enough, but many many nationalists in this country are far from reasonable as we have seen in the past year. Flanagan and Varadkar being called tans, or varadkars protestant schooling been called out etc isn't reasoned debate. Flanagan and the lily thing is an example of narratives been twisted. I mean i'm waiting for Collins' remembrance and will laugh if i see some of the stuff. Like i said i read more than one comment this morning that pro treaty=west brit. It had hundreds of likes. Now if we discount all that as online echo chamber stuff (which it isn't as has been proved) then sure in the mainstream (where people can be sued) it seems to be measured. I think we do have a long way to go. Lets take the compromises needed in any hypothetical UI. I can see many many people having the same issues. " oh why should we celebrate the 12th", why are we recognising their Britishness etc. Its foolish to pretend otherwise. There is thousands of pieces of evidence. Unionists obviously just as bad. Could you outline what you mean? A 'long way to go to where, exactly? Again, I will say as clearly as I can...'appeasement and lying about history' is not 'compromise'. Agreeing that you are free to interpret history as you wish but you are not free to ignore historical fact, is 'compromise'. If you look at (and i suggest you look closely) how we approached the 1916 commemorations, we got it majestically and beautifully right...because the advise of the EG was taken and there was full and open discourse in advance of it. I attended 3 years of seminars in the Abbey in the lead up to 2016 that were addressed by a wide range of speakers from here and conflict zones around the world, dealing with remembrance and commemoration.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s88tsIPaLGs&list=PLL-wClLnRBDrKqSlIliDE3WFDLG9EkG2w The result imo was a dignified, inclusive national and local year of reflection and remembrance right across the country that listened to and included all voices. Nobody is trying to 'exclude' the RIC/DMP. What happened here clearly, is that a few government ministers went totally off script and got it spectacularly wrong and unforgivably undid a lot of that good work. P.S. The twittersphere and Facebook are here to stay, I largely enjoy it, and recognise the democracy of it, in a way, but I just simply ignore the bile, from all quarters.
FrancieBrady wrote: » You are obviously a very intelligent and reasonable Republican/Nationalist. I respect that. I have no issue with that. But seriously this isn't the case if you take a cursory glance at any journal comments, reddit go to a pub in the inner city (which i do) or even the suburbs etc. I mean i know Mary Lou and a few of her mates went to private schools which probably makes them reasonable/enlightened enough, but many many nationalists in this country are far from reasonable as we have seen in the past year. Flanagan and Varadkar being called tans, or varadkars protestant schooling been called out etc isn't reasoned debate. Flanagan and the lily thing is an example of narratives been twisted. I mean i'm waiting for Collins' remembrance and will laugh if i see some of the stuff. Like i said i read more than one comment this morning that pro treaty=west brit. It had hundreds of likes. Now if we discount all that as online echo chamber stuff (which it isn't as has been proved) then sure in the mainstream (where people can be sued) it seems to be measured. I think we do have a long way to go. Lets take the compromises needed in any hypothetical UI. I can see many many people having the same issues. " oh why should we celebrate the 12th", why are we recognising their Britishness etc. Its foolish to pretend otherwise. There is thousands of pieces of evidence. Unionists obviously just as bad.
marieholmfan wrote: » We can't weep for everyone; of course he was Irish - but he was a traitor to his country.
![Photo of [Deleted User]](https://w2.vanillicon.com/v2/284f2526e18ff7e4c08066f9ed850ed0.svg)
