gormdubhgorm wrote: » Yeah misdirection, and mentioning Trump is much easier. Trump has more Irish than most on this thread I would say. Nationalist's defending the cause me arse.
gormdubhgorm wrote: » It is called cultural appropriation Ireland still speaks in the language of thier former colonial masters predominately, and could not even manage to revive Irish.The only country in Europe that does not speak it's own language. Ireland is inundated with English and American media. They are copied and aped. Yet there is pretenses like the protests against the DMP and RIC to make people feel Irish/or get a nationalist vote. It is a cod.
gormdubhgorm wrote: » Again you are assuming that the RIC and DMP have no nuance they are all the one. You are basically terrified of humanising them because you cannot class them all as 'other' then.McDonnell who was shot at Solohedbeg was an RIC constable a widower, with five kids. Shot for three boxes of gelignite. Also he was a fleuent Irish speaker. More of an Irish person than many on this thread who castigate all the RIC/DMP as one because of ignorance. Plus it does not suit thier narrative. Yet here you are conversing in English as your first language, yet you consider yourself more of an 'Irishman' than the likes of McDonnell of the RIC outnumbered and outgunned with his comrade O'Connell, against Robinson et al. 'Tír gan teanga, tír gan anam' as Pearse said
Nift wrote: » https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/ric-row-threatens-to-drag-us-into-a-dangerous-place-1.4133186?mode=sample&auth-failed=1&pw-origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fopinion%2Fmajority-of-ric-men-and-ira-opponents-born-on-the-same-land-1.4133186 Good article from Fergal Keane around it. Makes the point about the social media age. "The age of social media does the opposite. Slogans replace intelligent appraisal. We risk descending into the arid wilderness of name calling. To ask that we take a broader view or tolerate an opposing idea does not merit recourse to catch-calls like West Brit or Blueshirt."
Nift wrote: » ...catch-calls like West Brit or Blueshirt."
CrankyHaus wrote: » Okay so now we've reached the final argument in favour of commemorating the RIC: "The outrage over commemorating the RIC is evidence of the intolerant, narrow minded nationalism of the Irish masses, on a par with Trump's MAGA hordes. Ye have failed the test of tolerance and a United Ireland shall never be yours [insert evil cackling]" I won't even bother respinding to such patent nonsense, which Francie has cogently refuted.
FrancieBrady wrote: » More mythmaking. WHO is refusing to remember the RIC/DMP? What the Irish people did in 24 hrs was to refuse to allow a Minister formally commemorate the DMP/RIC precisely because they 'remember/recognise/know what these forces did and were involved in. They refused to be complicit in sanitising what was done because like me, formal commemoration would do that. The DMP/RIC have their place in our history and are fully recognised. I genuinely believe that Flanagan thought exactly like you, that Irish people didn't know what the RIC/DMP were involved in...he got well told on that one, as the objection came from right across the social and political spectrum.
gormdubhgorm wrote: » Not well put at it was purely misdirection. If you follow the arguement that the DMP/RIC should not be commorated as they are traitors to Republican ideals and a UI - they worked within the British cog. It would also mean that the very founders of this state the pro-treaty should not be commemorated in anyway as they were traitors to Irish Republicanism and a UI. Collins after all used British guns on his own countrymen. The hypocrisy is astounding just because people refuse see nuance and individuals in the British forces it is much easier to castigate them and treat them as 'other'. Yet the current state of the ROI venerates BOTH those from the pro-treaty side and anti-treaty side, but those from the British side are ALL viewed as abhorrent. Presently - it is cognitive dissonance at it's very best - IRA - anti-treaty and pro treaty = the good guys / maybe / kinda sorta British = the bad guys or collaborators That is before you even get into the discussion about the Provo's and recent history! People seem to be willing to create all sorts of nuance and caveats for the Irish Republican side. But do not even want to countenance any nuance when it comes to the British - or those on the British side. It is pathetic stuff.
gormdubhgorm wrote: » You are going on about how the British discouraged the Irish language etc. If Ireland is should a proud nation/a real nation why does it not converse in it's own language rather than piecemeal stuff. The irony that we are conversing in English on a thread where many view themselves as republicans and nationalists, seem lost on many including you. Yet on the other hand people seem to try and create the narrative that all the British were the oppressors and evil which is silly. With no nuance whatsoever and refuse to even remember the RIC/DMP. Yet are conversing in the language of thier former 'colonial masters' still!. It's comical stuff - a colony mindset.
FrancieBrady wrote: » Nift wrote: » We don't have a long way to go at all. If you listened to the reasonable debate on S'O'R you would realise that. Flanagan's solo run here (it did not have the sanction/blessing of the Expert Group nor the all party committee, nor it seems, a lot of the FG party themselves) was an attempt to state honour the RIC and DMP. That is wholly wrong at any time and Flanagan has been made well aware of that. If he genuinely felt that he was doing the right thing he wouldn't have cut it so quickly. The RIC/DMP should be recognised and in no way in the wide world have they been ignored or written out of our history. What the people of Ireland are saying very clearly is that there is a way to do this but it is not by frmally commemorating them as a state. NOBODY has stopped or criticised the yearly commemorations by the Policing group (TALK?) nor has anyone any objection to their role and the roles of their members being remembered, good bad or indifferent. What has to stop here is the depiction of this as a whitewashing or exclusion. You are obviously a very intelligent and reasonable Republican/Nationalist. I respect that. I have no issue with that. But seriously this isn't the case if you take a cursory glance at any journal comments, reddit go to a pub in the inner city (which i do) or even the suburbs etc. I mean i know Mary Lou and a few of her mates went to private schools which probably makes them reasonable/enlightened enough, but many many nationalists in this country are far from reasonable as we have seen in the past year. Flanagan and Varadkar being called tans, or varadkars protestant schooling been called out etc isn't reasoned debate. Flanagan and the lily thing is an example of narratives been twisted. I mean i'm waiting for Collins' remembrance and will laugh if i see some of the stuff. Like i said i read more than one comment this morning that pro treaty=west brit. It had hundreds of likes. Now if we discount all that as online echo chamber stuff (which it isn't as has been proved) then sure in the mainstream (where people can be sued) it seems to be measured. I think we do have a long way to go. Lets take the compromises needed in any hypothetical UI. I can see many many people having the same issues. " oh why should we celebrate the 12th", why are we recognising their Britishness etc. Its foolish to pretend otherwise. There is thousands of pieces of evidence. Unionists obviously just as bad. Look i'm not pro commemoration, its not the cross i'd die on. When i watch the wind that shakes the barley i feel the anger rising and the patriot stir. i'm just concerned that this is a sign of things to come and like gormdubhgorm some of the hypocrisy and revisionism sticks in my craw.
Nift wrote: » We don't have a long way to go at all. If you listened to the reasonable debate on S'O'R you would realise that. Flanagan's solo run here (it did not have the sanction/blessing of the Expert Group nor the all party committee, nor it seems, a lot of the FG party themselves) was an attempt to state honour the RIC and DMP. That is wholly wrong at any time and Flanagan has been made well aware of that. If he genuinely felt that he was doing the right thing he wouldn't have cut it so quickly. The RIC/DMP should be recognised and in no way in the wide world have they been ignored or written out of our history. What the people of Ireland are saying very clearly is that there is a way to do this but it is not by frmally commemorating them as a state. NOBODY has stopped or criticised the yearly commemorations by the Policing group (TALK?) nor has anyone any objection to their role and the roles of their members being remembered, good bad or indifferent. What has to stop here is the depiction of this as a whitewashing or exclusion.
Plumbthedepths wrote: » Excellent post, well put.
Nift wrote: » Billcarson wrote: » What and you'd be one of the rebels? Like all the millions of Irish who weren't. This is the problem with our history, its so intertwined and complex. Unlike other colonial nations, its spread over centuries. We have no idea if 200 years ago our forefathers were agents/supporters of the crown. I mean many of our national heroes weren't even really true Republicans. https://www.historytoday.com/archive/wolfe-tone-republican-hero-or-whig-opportunist I mean we had the idea yesterday that Flanagan was a decent Irish name. like wtf does that really mean when half of our greatest people are anglo irish? as unpalatable as that is. During the famine, there was a large number of people who spoke no English, remnants of the Cromwell purges. They lived in hovels in fields etc on the margins of Irish society. Many were paid/given a ferry ticket by landlords, governments, agents to leave. These were seen by Lady Gregory and people of the time as the last true Gaels. The remnants of an old Ireland. And many even sympathetic people, were glad to see them gone. Just cause your name is O'Brien it doesn't mean your directly purely descended from the clan. Most people arguing against the outcry are only highlighting the absolute ludicrousness of people going on about a border poll. Its not going to happen if this is whats going to go on. The same thing happened in 1987 when Garett Fitzgerald honored ww1 soldiers. It was a large part of him losing the next election. It should have been done as recommended by Ferriter but still, it goes to show we have a long way to go. Just cause people look at the ideas of romantic irish nationalism and question them, doesn't make them an enemy of the state. And people go on about brexit nationalists and US fly over state patriots with a straight face. We're as nationalist as anybody. How are people going to react for the civil war. I read on the journal comments more than one comment this morning that pro treaty = west brit. I mean ffs. We have a great history and we can be proud of those who fought the yoke of colonialism for decades. But we need to acknowledge many of those quirks we have as a nation. We don't have a long way to go at all. If you listened to the reasonable debate on S'O'R you would realise that. Flanagan's solo run here (it did not have the sanction/blessing of the Expert Group nor the all party committee, nor it seems, a lot of the FG party themselves) was an attempt to state honour the RIC and DMP. That is wholly wrong at any time and Flanagan has been made well aware of that. If he genuinely felt that he was doing the right thing he wouldn't have cut it so quickly. The RIC/DMP should be recognised and in no way in the wide world have they been ignored or written out of our history. What the people of Ireland are saying very clearly is that there is a way to do this but it is not by frmally commemorating them as a state. NOBODY has stopped or criticised the yearly commemorations by the Policing group (TALK?) nor has anyone any objection to their role and the roles of their members being remembered, good bad or indifferent. What has to stop here is the depiction of this as a whitewashing or exclusion.
Billcarson wrote: » What and you'd be one of the rebels? Like all the millions of Irish who weren't. This is the problem with our history, its so intertwined and complex. Unlike other colonial nations, its spread over centuries. We have no idea if 200 years ago our forefathers were agents/supporters of the crown. I mean many of our national heroes weren't even really true Republicans. https://www.historytoday.com/archive/wolfe-tone-republican-hero-or-whig-opportunist I mean we had the idea yesterday that Flanagan was a decent Irish name. like wtf does that really mean when half of our greatest people are anglo irish? as unpalatable as that is. During the famine, there was a large number of people who spoke no English, remnants of the Cromwell purges. They lived in hovels in fields etc on the margins of Irish society. Many were paid/given a ferry ticket by landlords, governments, agents to leave. These were seen by Lady Gregory and people of the time as the last true Gaels. The remnants of an old Ireland. And many even sympathetic people, were glad to see them gone. Just cause your name is O'Brien it doesn't mean your directly purely descended from the clan. Most people arguing against the outcry are only highlighting the absolute ludicrousness of people going on about a border poll. Its not going to happen if this is whats going to go on. The same thing happened in 1987 when Garett Fitzgerald honored ww1 soldiers. It was a large part of him losing the next election. It should have been done as recommended by Ferriter but still, it goes to show we have a long way to go. Just cause people look at the ideas of romantic irish nationalism and question them, doesn't make them an enemy of the state. And people go on about brexit nationalists and US fly over state patriots with a straight face. We're as nationalist as anybody. How are people going to react for the civil war. I read on the journal comments more than one comment this morning that pro treaty = west brit. I mean ffs. We have a great history and we can be proud of those who fought the yoke of colonialism for decades. But we need to acknowledge many of those quirks we have as a nation.
weldoninhio wrote: » I'd say there is someone in Charlie Flanagan's office right now thinking "fcuk, what do i do with this now?" while looking at Charlies plans for March 17th this year where Ireland will be commemorating the snakes in 2020 instead of St. Patrick, in the interests of fairness of course.
FrancieBrady wrote: » What?
Billy_Madison wrote: Mr. GormDubhGorm, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.
gormdubhgorm wrote: » But by your own logic Irish has not being 'illegal' or discouraged foe a hundred years by that logic. So why are most of the country conversing in English the mother tongue of the oppressors? Why are we conversing in English on this very thread who's fault is that - the English?
McMurphy wrote: » Deferred not cancelled Flanagan reckons.
FrancieBrady wrote: » What you SHOULD be looking for here are historical facts that explain WHY Irish people might be hiding books and artworks in the Irish language. Have a read:https://as.nyu.edu/content/dam/nyu-as/irelandHouse/documents/0111-0126_PoliticsOfTheIrishLanguage.pdf
Billcarson wrote: » Bambi wrote: » And The others who decry any glimpse of national sentiment as barstoolism while themselves becoming all dewy eyed for the days of Union when patriotic "ballsy" RIC men bravely turfed peasants out of their homes If they where alive back then they would probably be the informer type scum. What and you'd be one of the rebels? Like all the millions of Irish who weren't. This is the problem with our history, its so intertwined and complex. Unlike other colonial nations, its spread over centuries. We have no idea if 200 years ago our forefathers were agents/supporters of the crown. I mean many of our national heroes weren't even really true Republicans. https://www.historytoday.com/archive/wolfe-tone-republican-hero-or-whig-opportunist I mean we had the idea yesterday that Flanagan was a decent Irish name. like wtf does that really mean when half of our greatest people are anglo irish? as unpalatable as that is. During the famine, there was a large number of people who spoke no English, remnants of the Cromwell purges. They lived in hovels in fields etc on the margins of Irish society. Many were paid/given a ferry ticket by landlords, governments, agents to leave. These were seen by Lady Gregory's husband and people of the time as the last true Gaels. The remnants of an old Ireland. And many even sympathetic people (gregory is qouted as such), were glad to see them gone. Just cause your name is O'Brien it doesn't mean your directly purely descended from the clan. Most people arguing against the outcry are only highlighting the absolute ludicrousness of people going on about a border poll. Its not going to happen if this is whats going to go on. The same thing happened in 1987 when Garett Fitzgerald honored ww1 soldiers. It was a large part of him losing the next election. It should have been done as recommended by Ferriter but still, it goes to show we have a long way to go. Just cause people look at the ideas of romantic irish nationalism and question them, doesn't make them an enemy of the state. And people go on about brexit nationalists and US fly over state patriots with a straight face. We're as nationalist as anybody. And sometimes there's nothing wrong with that. Maybe its only cause they're nationalists in an imperial sense that we don't like. How are people going to react for the civil war. I read on the journal comments more than one comment this morning that pro treaty = west brit. I mean ffs. We have a great history and we can be proud of those who fought the yoke of colonialism for decades. But we need to at least acknowledge if not commemorate many of those quirks we have as a nation. I mean take a walk through Dublin city centre and walk around. One of those quirks is all around, and has directly led to the housing crisis. Post colonial, nationalist, but loving British architecture so much they'd block any development.
Bambi wrote: » And The others who decry any glimpse of national sentiment as barstoolism while themselves becoming all dewy eyed for the days of Union when patriotic "ballsy" RIC men bravely turfed peasants out of their homes If they where alive back then they would probably be the informer type scum.
FrancieBrady wrote: » he choose to denigrate and call people 'immature' and huff about 'sinister forces' :rolleyes:
markodaly wrote: » https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=112193905 It is directly inferred in that post.
but a good start would be some 19th century Gaeilge poetry, you know, what we had to hide because our language was illegal
CrankyHaus wrote: » This has been a long thread, have we worked our way through all of the nonsense arguments in favour of this yet? 1. The RIC did not include the RIC Auxiliary Division or the Black and Tans. Yes it did. 2. They were Catholic Irish men so must be commemorated. Why? 3. We need to aknowledge our history warts and all. Okay, here are photgraphs of some atrocities perpetrated by the RIC. 4. Actually no, we need to stop obsessing over our history and move on. How does obessing over the "decent men" of the RIC move us on in any way? 5. It's necessary for reconciliation with the Unionists. They've had pretty much nothing to say on the issue and no Northern Irish Councils were even invited to this farce. 6. Some Irish people support English soccer teams and even listen to English music. Indeed, not sure of relevance to the argument. 7. Many Irish people can't even speak Irish. Indeed, as a result of centuries of British rule. 8. Those opposed to this are bar-stool Republicans. Some may be, many just have a problem with commemorating a force of colonial oppression, certainly the popular opposition to this extends far beyond SF voters. 8. My great-garandaddy was in the RIC and he was a decent man.Ah, the crux of the issue, if you wish to honour him do it yourself and don't expect the country to re-write its history for you.
The Rape of Lucretia wrote: » The use of English as the language of Ireland greatly benefits everyone on the island today. It would be to our disadvantage if our native language was Irish. Not that there is anything wrong with it at all, and fine for people to choose to use it as a hobby, and as valid to study and preserve as Latin or ancient Greek. But the transition fro Irish speakers to English speakers is an unalloyed good, and benefit of our historical relationship with Britain, and not an aspect to be regarded as a negative.
