Sir Oxman wrote: » Well, well, well. So much for the multiple attempts to say eminent experts gave the nod for it. FG didn't even consult the all-part ctte either, despite multiple posts on here saying so in error (I'll kindly say in error) This is Flanagans doing with Varadkars backing. Well done lads, well done.:rolleyes: FG are sickening. "In a statement to TheJournal.ie, EAG member and Professor of Modern Irish History at UCD Diarmaid Ferriter said that Minister Charlie Flanagan issued a statement yesterday which, in his view, “misrepresents the position of the Expert Advisory Group (EAG) in relation to commemoration of the RIC”. He said that Minister Flanagan “should not refer to the event on 17 January in Dublin Castle as being as a result of our guidance”. "He said that what the EAG had in mind “was an academic event – a conference or seminar – that would look at the issue of policing in Ireland during the revolutionary period, including the role of and disbandment of the RIC and the foundation of the Civic Guard, which became An Garda Síochána”. Ferriter said that the EAG “should not be used by the government as a mudguard to provide cover for itself when it receives negative reaction to its solo runs in relation to commemoration”.
Expert Advisory Group on Commemorations wrote: The Advisory Group recommends that the foundation of the Defence Forces and of An Garda Síochána should be commemorated appropriately. Consideration should also be given to the organisation of specific initiatives to commemorate the Royal Irish Constabulary (RIC) and the Dublin Metropolitan Police (DMP) and to acknowledge their place in history
cherryghost wrote: » Irish history hasnt changed since 2011. It'd still be a scandalous decision back then. Nothing has changed in that aspect.
Plumbthedepths wrote: » Seems someone has been less than truthful about the expert groups recommendations.https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/historian-accuses-government-of-using-advisory-group-like-a-mud-guard-1.4133051?mode=amp
marieholmfan wrote: » What points do you believe that you are making?
FrancieBrady wrote: » Still hand-waving it all away. Seem to remember that starting about Maria Bailey too....the better part of a year ago.
BarryD2 wrote: » This thread is profoundly depressing reading for anyone with an aspiration for a united peaceful Ireland. We're talking about events of a century ago, best to remember them warts and all and then move on. If people are so mean spirited as regards a simple ceremony to acknowledge the many Irishmen who served in the RIC, what hope is there for any sort of mutual respect for our northern brethren?
gormdubhgorm wrote: » That the DMP and RIC deserve to be rememebed as many were Irishmen from this state doing thier job. They just happened to be on the wrong side of history it could easily have gone the other way. Remembering them also sends out a single to the Unionists in NI which is crucial for future relations in the midst of all these centenaries. I honestly see nothing wrong with it and the single narrow viewpoint of Irish history needs to be expanded.
jimgoose wrote: » Mind you, it's possible that Ferriter is winding his neck back in as well. :pac:
Sir Oxman wrote: » FG ignored the expert Group, didn't consult the all-party ctte. Why? The recommendation was an academic seminar or something similar and that makes perfect sense. The decade of commemorations is meant to be agreed. It's funny that the expert group was being lauded for their foresight a few hours ago, now it doesn't matter. The HARP crowd can have their ceremony as they have done for the past 6 or 7 years but it should not be an approved state commemoration for a force that opposed Irish independence. All Irish who died in WoI will be commemorated in 2021.
Phoebas wrote: » Here's what the expert group recommended: That's the sum total of what they say about the DMP and RIC It's a bit rich for Diarmaid Ferriter to now say that his "Advisory Group on Commemorations" had something other than a commemoration in mind, when his report specifically calls for a commemoration.
Plumbthedepths wrote: » Don't see what difference it makes to Ferrites considering he won't be seeking anyone's votes.
gormdubhgorm wrote: » That the DMP and RIC deserve to be rememebed as many were Irishmen from this state doing thier job. They just happened to be on the wrong side of history it could easily have gone the other way.
marieholmfan wrote: » They are remembered. The question is whether the state should 'honour' their memory.
Bridge93 wrote: » The Unionists couldnt give less of a fcuk whether an Irish police force from 100 years ago are commemorated or not.
is_that_so wrote: » It was a civil question and there's no handwaving at all as I have no issues with it. That second bit is disappointing so I'll leave you to your playground taunts. Have a nice day now!
is_that_so wrote: » No they didn't. They chose to act on the suggestion but apparently not in the way the expert group meant. There will be more of these contentious commemorations over the next few years as we head into the Civil war years.
gormdubhgorm wrote: » There are various distinctions though when people use the term black and tans they erroneously refer to all British forces as the Tans. I noticed Mary Lou made a point of calling it the Tan war. There was The British Army The RIC The DMP The Black and Tans (RIC reserve) - the catch all term that is used incorrectly. The Auxiliary Division of the RIC (ADRIC) - former British Army officers Within those there were various strains of individual from Criminals to Upright soldiers/police. They were also from around Ireland, England etc etc I don't buy into this one size fits all they were all murdering xyz.
Hamsterchops wrote: » You don't think they would dwell on what (might happen) at the commemoration on the 100th anniversary of the end of the RUC..... All the talk about a United Ireland, yet all the talk about how Horrible the British are/were. Either you lot Hate the British/Unionists past & present, or you want to unite with them, which is it?
is_that_so wrote: » He's "defending" himself. Some academics are very precise.
Ash.J.Williams wrote: » Mr Ferriter is essentially pointing out it's wrong to airbrush history but not necessary to hold a garden party for every aspect of it
J Mysterio wrote: » Bolded above is the crux of the problem. All these elements are part of a greater RIC whole: what was a tool of the oppressive British aparatus in Ireland. Ultimately, the RIC imposed British rule here. A rule, which at various times through history banned our language, games, religion, culture, took our land and resources and planted beligerents here. The effects are of course still felt today (e.g. Irish is barely spoken, e.g. the island partioned). We should be continuing to celebrate the centenary of our winning independence from the British, not the tools of its oppression and control. We have not even yet reached the actual centenary of the creation of the Irish state (2022). Not yet a 100 years later we are a country which is now one of the most progressive in the world. At such a time as this, it's wholly inappropriate to deign to doff the cap to the institutional instrument of our former oppressors, or wrack ourselves with some sort of Stockholm Syndrome guilt or seek to somehow appease admirers of Britain. It should be acknowledged that as the British progressively lost control of this island due to their impositions and cruelty, so Irelands desire was time and again renewed to cast off the shackles and pursue self determination. This is a constant theme throughout our hundreds of years of shared history. This desire always resulted in an escalation and the British becoming increasingly nasty, and so did their tools of control, in this case the RIC. Accepting that at one point or another, there may have been a few RIC lads that may have been 'good' in their community or 'needed a job' or whatever, this 'commemoration' is of the RIC as a whole, in all its guises (and so including 'the Black and Tans' and the 'Auxillaries'). It's simply not appropriate for the Irish state to commemorate that. It is also not correct to simplify what is a long and complex history and then say 'this was your police force'. They can not simply be 'rehabilitated' in this way and history can not be scrubbed, sanatised or revised so trivially. It is complex and so needs to be addressed in a nuanced way, and with more consultation and forethought . My main issue is the tone of Varadkar in this: "it is regrettable" people do not agree. That to commemorate the RIC is 'mature' and so not to do so is of course 'immature'. That is a gross simplification, it's disrespectful to our history and a disservice to those who fought, died and suffered through British rule before eventually achieving a mostly independent Ireland. Before I am accused of bitterness or hate - I don't hate the British/ English and I am not bitter, but neither do I forget our difficult history. Let's worry about us and acknowledge how far we have come, Brexit Britain is certainly concentrating on itself.
gormdubhgorm wrote: » A commemoration to me is an event where people are remembered there was no mention of 'honouring'. All the Republican side has famous stories and songs about them. Even Cathal Brugha who was supposed to be a very serious fella, and no craic. No mention in song about ordinary lads from the other side, during the War of Ind. they have been erased from history.
Hamsterchops wrote: » Either you lot Hate the British/Unionists past & present, or you want to unite with them, which is it?
J Mysterio wrote: » . Accepting that at one point or another, there may have been a few RIC lads that may have been 'good' in their community or 'needed a job' or whatever, this 'commemoration' is of the RIC as a whole, in all its guises (and so including 'the Black and Tans' and the 'Auxillaries'). It's simply not appropriate for the Irish state to commemorate that. It is also not correct to simplify what is a long and complex history and then say 'this was your police force'. They can not simply be 'rehabilitated' in this way and history can not be scrubbed, sanatised or revised so trivially. It is complex and so needs to be addressed in a nuanced way, and with more consultation and forethought . My main issue is the tone of Varadkar in this: "it is regrettable" people do not agree. That to commemorate the RIC is 'mature' and so not to do so is of course 'immature'. That is a gross simplification, it's disrespectful to our history and a disservice to those who fought, died and suffered through British rule before eventually achieving a mostly independent Ireland.
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