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RIC and DMP to be commemorated this month

ZuluDawn2020

Apparently a ceremony is going to be held attended by the Minister for Justice and Garda Commissioner to comemorate members of the DMP (Dublin Metropolitan Police) and RIC (Royal Irish Constabulary) killed during the Irish Revolution.

Does anyone else think this is grotesque?

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saabsaab

buried wrote: »

Yeah I know exactly what you are saying, they were caught up supporting a regime that deemed it acceptable to shoot multiple rounds of machine gun fire into a crowd of innocent people. That is the actual reality and the actual history. Just because you don't want to acknowledge it, well, that's on you.

I don't think you or many others here understand, you raise a terrible incident that can't be defended and then blacken the name of all the RIC. It is a fact that tens of thousands of today's Irish people are descendants of RIC DMP men myself included and I am not ashamed of him, especially as he died in WWI saving a comrade. Are you asking all these to be ashamed of their kin?

Hamsterchops

Scoundrel wrote: »

What would the point of being an independent country be if we were to rejoin the commonwealth?? Ludicrous stuff.

To put it another way, can you imagine Northern Ireland leaving the Commonwealth?

Nift

Scoundrel wrote: »

What would the point of being an independent country be if we were to rejoin the commonwealth?? Ludicrous stuff.

So ludicrous that Sinn Fein have even mentioned it.

What's ludicrous is thinking that a United Ireland will be easily done and the same. Ireland would be utterly changed. As gormdubhgorm alluded, the most intelligent leader we have had, Collins, knew it to be the case and the rash blinkered ****ers killed him for it.

gormdubhgorm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Who said that?

What will not be 'conducive to a reconciliation of traditions' (is suppression and brutality a 'tradition' now?) is a dishonest pretending that we wish to commemorate what these forces did in any official way.

Nobody is whitewashing them out of history, if there were good men and women members, let them be honoured/celebrated. But do not ask that they be celebrated as organisations, that is asking people to lie, to appease unionism in the hope they will accept the wishes of a majority, when they have already agreed when signing up to the GFA to accept the democratic wish of all the people.

Nobody is asking Arlene or unionists to lie to us about how they feel about the British Army for instance.

If you really want to be finicky about it you could put the prefix old before RIC if it would be more palatable for you. But whether we like it or not the Unionists have thier own culture and tradition. Irishmen fought against Irishmen during the war of Independence and the Civil War.
Many are forgotten would you have known the names of the Irish Volunteers in Solohedbeg - I bet you could rattle off a few without looking it up?

Would you have known anything about the Irish RIC men in Solohedbeg off the top of your head? I doubt it.
No matter how you look at it is a Republican airbrushing of history.

It is as bad as the way the British airbrush thier colonial past. We should not airbrush Irish men out of history as they do not conform today's politics for Republicans.

Appeasement of the Unionists is the way forward the likes of Collins knew it, the likes of De Valera and McGuinness grew into the idea. If that does not happen a UI will remain just a pipedream regardless of any numbers on a page.

Nift

marieholmfan wrote: »

The below is unnecessary - post Brexit 50% +1 is inevitable.

Sure and good luck with that.

It's not.

Would be great if life was so simple. Brexit is a prime example of how complicated the democratic process can be.

Sir Oxman

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Here is where it is said.

'Consideration should be given...'

There is NO recommendation to proceed with a commemoration, only that it should be considered.

https://www.decadeofcentenaries.com/wp-content/uploads/publications/Guidance2018/Guidance2018/index.html

that's the Expert Group, yer man is constantly talking about the All-Party committee (to cover FG's stupidity) of which it is very much not clear what they said on this particular matter.
I've seen bits of tweets asking why the govt didn't listen to or consult the All-Party ctte but can't find anything substantial.

This piece from a UCD professor asks:
https://www.thejournal.ie/readme/royal-irish-constabulary-4955317-Jan2020/

"The government must bear some responsibility for this, both in its un-nuanced communications and the fact that the All-Party Consultation Group on Commemorations does not seem to have been consulted on this particular event. Is this a solo run by the minister and the Historical and Reconciliation Police Society (HARP)?"

Scoundrel

Hamsterchops wrote: »

New National Anthem
New all inclusive flag.
Re joining the Commonwealth.
Non mandatory Irish in school..

Would Republicans countenance all of these?

What would the point of being an independent country be if we were to rejoin the commonwealth?? Ludicrous stuff.

marieholmfan

The below is unnecessary - post Brexit 50% +1 is inevitable.

Nift wrote: »

A truth commission as you say. I'd imagine a few. barcelona, parts of Italy, i'm sure there is others.

Unionists would need to accept the same; a shared culture. I would propose, joint capitals in Dublin and Belfast, federalised police, a new anthem, flag, a truth commission, maybe a federal provincial system.

I'm not saying they or we have to do anything. I'm saying nothing will happen because of all these issues. I'd actually bet everything i have on it.

Put yourself in the orangeman shoes. His whole culture dies the day a United Ireland is announced. Now no matter how joyous to some that is, to them its the death of their identity. In my mind, there is a certainty many hardliners would take up a gun.

I don't know the will of the majority might sound democratic to you, but it comes with alot of heartache and yes bloodshed. Nearly guaranteed.

The Rape of Lucretia

JupiterKid wrote: »

...

...but this "commemoration" is simply is a step too far and the Govt will pay the price for this

Only a step too far for those who are a step behind.

Nift

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Unionists will be joining a 'united' country. How many countries have two separate police forces?

You keep talking about what 'we' have to do to make a success of the will of the majority, what do you feel Unionists should do/compromise on?

A truth commission as you say. I'd imagine a few. barcelona, parts of Italy, i'm sure there is others.

Unionists would need to accept the same; a shared culture. I would propose, joint capitals in Dublin and Belfast, federalised police, a new anthem, flag, a truth commission, maybe a federal provincial system.

I'm not saying they or we have to do anything. I'm saying nothing will happen because of all these issues. I'd actually bet everything i have on it.

Put yourself in the orangeman shoes. His whole culture dies the day a United Ireland is announced. Now no matter how joyous to some that is, to them its the death of their identity. In my mind, there is a certainty many hardliners would take up a gun. I mean again, online/barstool chatter response would be **** em..they deserve it. But its a simplistic view. As unpalatable as it is to many, these unionists, many who consider themselves Irish, have been connected to Ireland since the 16th century.

I don't know the will of the majority might sound democratic to you, but it comes with alot of heartache and yes bloodshed. Nearly guaranteed.

To keep it on topic this RIC is an obvious carrot to Unionists, and a red rag to the rent a mob who think they're Republican. It seems an own goal, but its been flagged a while. The civil war centenrary will be another minefield.

marieholmfan

Bobtheman wrote: »

Let's face facts . Most RIC or DMP were not involved in political oppression. Most Irish people did not want independence until after 1916.
I have no issues with the commentation so long as it's made clear the duties they are commentating.

But most RIC were involved in evictions and in the maintenance of the Cromwellian order.

Hamsterchops

Waiting for an answer to #623 ChikiChiki.

Bobtheman

Let's face facts . Most RIC or DMP were not involved in political oppression. Most Irish people did not want independence until after 1916.
I have no issues with the commentation so long as it's made clear the duties they are commentating.

golfball37

Hamsterchops wrote: »

New National Anthem
New all inclusive flag.
Re joining the Commonwealth.
Non mandatory Irish in school..

Would Republicans countenance all of these?

I would absolutely, the language one would be the most difficult for me however and I would like it kept/recognised in some form

The Rape of Lucretia

J Mysterio wrote: »

The lack of basic knowledge of Irish history people have demonstrated in this thread is mind blowing.

History has no relevance to those with an ideology in place of reason. Rather, it can be a threat to the ideology.

Nift

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

You forgot - Charles William St John Burgess

ah yeah Cathal Brugha, theres so many. I was reading a history of Georgian Dublin recently. It makes a very good point about the mixed heritage in Dublin. the 18th century was a boom time for Dublin, so guess what happened. Many lords, lady's and yes dockers, workers, laborers came here from Wales and Britain. You can see it in the names of inner city Dublin today. The idea that there is many true 100 per cent Irish people or true gaels etc is a fallacy. For me the RIC issue is a small snap shot around all these complex identities and shared histories.

Commemorate them or not, lets not pretend there is not a huge issue coming down the tracks the day a border poll is announced. Imo it won't happen any time soon for these very reasons despite what Francis saids. He and the intelligent Republicans may accept change/compromise, but a quick glance here or on any forum will show you the "great unwashed" wouldn't give an inch.

FrancieBrady

Nift wrote: »

thats fair.

A serious issue and in relation to police and legacies, would the PSNI have to become garda or would that be too much?

Unionists will be joining a 'united' country. How many countries have two separate police forces?

You keep talking about what 'we' have to do to make a success of the will of the majority, what do you feel Unionists should do/compromise on?

gormdubhgorm

Nift wrote: »

sorry but what's a good irish name? this is the crux of the issue around all this bollocks....

a good irish name like Parnell, Pearse, Markivicz, Plunkett, Constance Georgine Gore-Booth and so on and on.

You forgot - Charles William St John Burgess

Nift

FrancieBrady wrote: »

This one will and has an open and honest opinion on each of them.

thats fair.

A serious issue and in relation to police and legacies, would the PSNI have to become garda or would that be too much?

gormdubhgorm

Hamsterchops wrote: »

New National Anthem
New all inclusive flag.
Re joining the Commonwealth.
Non mandatory Irish in all school..

Would Republicans countenance all of these?

Many can't sing the national anthem.
Many hardliners seem to forget the true meaning of the Irish flag.
And most of them do not speak a decent standard of Irish, and only pay the language lip service.

As for the commonwealth it would have solved things back in 1914 - I think that ship has sailed.

Nift

ChikiChiki wrote: »

Genuinely disgusting. Flanagan is a good Irish name. Wtf is his agenda.

sorry but what's a good irish name? this is the crux of the issue around all this bollocks....

a good irish name like Emmet, tone, Parnell, Pearse, Plunkett, Constance Georgine Gore-Booth and so on and on.

FrancieBrady

Hamsterchops wrote: »

New National Anthem
New all inclusive flag.
Re joining the Commonwealth.
Non mandatory Irish in school..

Would Republicans countenance all of these?

This one will and has an open and honest opinion on each of them.

Sir Oxman

markodaly wrote: »

They did actually.

From Wiki

Fill your boots.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parliament_of_Ireland#The_Act_of_Union_and_abolition

Hamsterchops

New National Anthem
New all inclusive flag.
Re joining the Commonwealth.
Non mandatory Irish in school..

Would Republicans countenance all of these?

FrancieBrady

Nift wrote: »

Look you are being disingenuous. Hundreds if not thousands of comments all over here, reddit, the journal over the decade in regards to a United Ireland. Many would not be happy with any compromise. Have a read yourself. Its hardly restrcited to a willie frazer. I mean, ffs, the comments along these lines are on this ****ing thread.

Of course it should be honest and open. I think thats the whole point of the RIC thing, even if it has backfired.

A border poll passes, many Irish people think it will be an Irish Republic with the north tagged on. And then the orange lads can go home or give up. Thats, we can agree it seems, not going to happen. Fair enough. Spread that message to other less informed people like yourself.

SF in fairness don't.

Name us one elected republican who would not be happy to compromise? Elected republicans have talked at length on what needs to happen for a successful UI to happen.

gormdubhgorm

McMurphy wrote: »

Charlie Flanagan on the Easter Lilly being worn.

Charlie Flanagan on the poppy.

https://twitter.com/CharlieFlanagan/status/399495637185863680?s=19

Charlie might convince others that what he's proposing is a commemoration to the tans, but Charlie clearly has his stall layed out as to what side of history he favours.

ChikiChiki wrote: »

Genuinely disgusting. Flanagan is a good Irish name. Wtf is his agenda.

Well if you look at it logically the Easter lilly used to be only associated with the Provos (and more recently INLA) who wanted to overthrow not only Britain but Dail Eireann. Without a mandate from the electorate.

Even in the 1930's FG AND FF tried to stop the sale of the Easter Lilly.
So it is hardly a new phenomenon that it is viewed as only not only anti Dail Eireann, but anti the state of Ireland as per Bunreacht na hÉireann.

As for the Poppy it commemorates WWI in particular many Irishmen fought in that war (about 200k in total) some for the Freedom of small nations, some also fought in the hope of getting Home Rule for Ireland. It is not completely anti Dail Eireann like the Easter Lilly has become viewed as.

Hamsterchops

ChikiChiki wrote: »

Genuinely disgusting. Flanagan is a good Irish name. Wtf is his agenda.

What's disgusting?

FrancieBrady

Sir Oxman wrote: »

For the second time, that is not quite clear at this stage so stop using it as camouflage for FG.

Here is where it is said.

'Consideration should be given...'

There is NO recommendation to proceed with a commemoration, only that it should be considered.

https://www.decadeofcentenaries.com/wp-content/uploads/publications/Guidance2018/Guidance2018/index.html

armaghlad

J Mysterio wrote: »

The lack of basic knowledge of Irish history people have demonstrated in this thread is mind blowing.

I know, some people can’t remember the last fifty years

ChikiChiki

McMurphy wrote: »

Charlie Flanagan on the Easter Lilly being worn.

Charlie Flanagan on the poppy.

https://twitter.com/CharlieFlanagan/status/399495637185863680?s=19

Charlie might convince others that what he's proposing is a commemoration to the tans, but Charlie clearly has his stall layed out as to what side of history he favours.

Genuinely disgusting. Flanagan is a good Irish name. Wtf is his agenda.