Junkyard Tom wrote: » You seem to think that Unifying the island has some sort of inbuilt requirement for the entire population to bend-the-knee to a pro-colonial view of history, I've news for you - this will never happen. Similarly there will be no requirement for former unionists to bend the knee to the Republican view of history.That is respecting each other, not some mealy-mouthed toadying to our former tormetors.
Beeping Kitchen Appliances wrote: » All these were interrelated and codependent cogs in a machine. The tans/aux couldn't wander around a foreign country blind. They utilised the local knowledge of the RIC. At the most basic level -roads, hills, forests, choke points. Then more critically safe houses, sympathisers, known rebels etc. It may be a waste of energy to castigate them. But there is no need to celebrate either them or the rest of the machinery of British rule.
markodaly wrote: » Yes, respecting each other and each others traditions and view on the history of Ireland. Yet, how are we to build a nation if we cannot even agree on the basics of commemorating things that happened 100 years ago. Christ, even the Poppy is a huge thing on this island. Should we also forget those who died on the losing side of the civil war? If not, why not?
Jakey Rolling wrote: » I'm surprised that FG haven't pointed out that the recommendation for this came from the All-Party Group on Commemerations. They seem to have seriously misjudged public opinion on this by acting on that recommendation though. Seems like a huge own goal so close to elections.https://merrionstreet.ie/en/News-Room/Releases/Minister_Madigan_announces_publication_of_guidance_of_the_Expert_Advisory_Group_on_Decade_of_Centenaries_1919_%E2%80%93_1923_.html
The Advisory Group recommends that the foundation of the Defence Forces and of An Garda Síochána should be commemorated appropriately. Consideration should also be given to the organisation of specific initiatives to commemorate theRoyal Irish Constabulary (RIC) and the Dublin Metropolitan Police (DMP) and to acknowledge their place in history. The Group recommends that the archive, museum and library network around the country should play a significant role in supporting citizen engagement. Young people will need to be supported appropriately in learning about this seminal but sometimes divisive and difficult period in our history, particularly in its concluding phase.
markodaly wrote: » Irish men working for the RIC/DMP murdered by the IRA we denigrate.
Junkyard Tom wrote: » Who is denigrating them? They've been described collectively as being on 'the wrong side of history' -- that is remarkably generous for a paramilitary force that carried out some disgusting crimes in defence of a foreign occupier.
Trying to create equivalence between a struggle for freedom and those trying to prevent it is perverse - you will not get away with it. Hopefully FG get punished in the next election and it will serve as a lesson to others.
Kermit.de.frog wrote: » Plenty of thugs and gurriers in the IRB who carried out disgusting crimes at the time like burning people, mainly protestants from homes and involved in murder and execution. The IRB should not be commemorated based on the same moral standard put forward by some.
cameramonkey wrote: » So the Tans were the RIC , got it.
cameramonkey wrote: » I'm not sectarian I dont care about what religion they were.
cameramonkey wrote: » The Tans were RIC, both groupings within the RIC carried out atrocities, they should not be celebrated. What have we learned? The Tans were RIC.
markodaly wrote: » Arent they the wrong side of history?
If the leaders of the rising were just jailed and not executed, then the whole rising would have been a useless exercise and the IPP would have won the 1918 elections, with Home Rule already agreed upon (Unionist objections aside). History would have played out very differently.
markodaly wrote: » This should be communicated more widely, as the narrative is that this is a solo run made by Leo and the minister of Justice, Charlie Flangan.https://www.chg.gov.ie/app/uploads/2019/01/guidance-from-the-expert-advisory-group-on-commemorations-over-the-remainder-of-the-decade-of-centenaries-eng-1.pdf The people on the export group.https://www.decadeofcentenaries.com/expert-group/ Members of the All-Party Consulation Grouphttps://www.decadeofcentenaries.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/Meeting-of-All-Party-Consultation-Group-on-Commemorations-note-10-dec.pdf So, it seems all political parties approved this initiative.
saabsaab wrote: » I don't think anyone wanted to commemorate those who killed unarmed civilians in Bloody Sunday or who assassinated Tomas MacCurtin (illegal acts by their own measure) or the 'Black and Tans' or 'Auxies' just ordinary RIC men. However it is evident that this is being misunderstood not adequately explained/defined and is turning into a PR fiasco.
Hamsterchops wrote: » Irish/British, British/Irish, Irish but also British. Back then in it was very different to today in what's now the ROI, whereby there is a clear line, or distinction between being British or Irish. My parents were Irish/British, both born in Dublin before the ROI separated itself politically and (some would say geographically) from the rest of these islands ...... Like many Irish families, my family would have had strong ties to the RIC back in the day.
The Rape of Lucretia wrote: » The difference being these clowns were terrorists outside the law.
Sean.3516 wrote: » Honestly I don’t see conscription as a price too high to pay for Home Rule.
jmcc wrote: » It is always brave little chicken hawks like you send men out to die rather than go fight themselves. It is as simple as this: Varadkar and Flanagan are traitors to the memory of those who fought for Irish freedom. Flanagan is the son of an anti-semitic gombeen bigot. His father would probably want to commemorate concentration camp guards and he is no better. He wants to commemorate the paramilitary force that guarded the food that was shipped out of Ireland during the Famine when Irish people starved. Varadkar is just a politically incompetent poseur playing at being taoiseach in between Kylie Minogue concerts. Hopefully FG will do the needful soon after the next GE. The RIC was a paramilitary organisation that was intended to keep Ireland suppressed and under the control of the British using terror tactics. The two of these gombeens would rather be good little English MPs rather than Irish TDs. Even that useless gobsh!te John "Unionist" Bruton was on the Claire Byrne show advocating that the Black and Tans be commemorated too. Home Rule isn't freedom. It is serfdom to an inbred bunch of middle class Germans masquerading as a "royal" family. Perhaps you want to be British but this is Ireland. And Ireland -- most of it -- is free because people thought differently to you and fought for the right to be free. The Black and Tans, the Auxillaries and much of the RIC were the enemies of Irish freedom and the Irish people. Varadkar, Flanagan and Bruton are a disgrace to Fine Gael. Regards...jmcc
gormdubhgorm wrote: » The more I think of this the more it annoys me. There seems to be many with a very simplistic view of history based on a single mindset. Anyone who even has a cursory interest in history, knows that history is not black or white. It is not good v evil. Practicalities come into it and day to day life. If you look at the Solohedbeg ambush for instance. It was eight men against two RIC men guarding gelignite. The Irish Volunteers involved in Solohedbeg were Seán Treacy, Dan Breen, Seamus Robinson Seán Hogan, Patrick McCormack, Patrick O'Dwyer Tadhg Crowe, and Michael Ryan. The two RIC men were killed and their names are largely forgotten or a footnote in most versions of Irish history. Constable Patrick O’Connell was 30 years old, he was from Coachford in Co Cork and was going to get married. James McDonnell was a constable as well, a native Irish speaker. McDonnell was from Belmullet in Co Mayo. In his case it was particularly sad as McDonnell was a 56-year-old widower and the father of seven children. Fellas just trying to make a living like anyone today. Both RIC men Catholics by the way in case people are wondering. For their raid the Irish volunteers got three boxes of gelignite, which Breen said that it never got used anyway, because the frost got at it when it was buried. And it was of more danger to the fella using it than anything. So what did it achieve? Of course, today Robinson, Breen and Treacy etc are feted as heroes. But the RIC lads are forgotten as they were ‘British’. Plus, what happened when Ireland became the Free State? The British Civil Service was kept for decades in Ireland and the red post boxes were given a green coat of paint! I am no Leo fan. But I believe Leo is doing the right thing in this case as it takes away the fakery that hangs over Irish history. Also, it could help towards the goal of a United Ireland in the long run as the Unionists will know that other cultures and viewpoints can be recognised. Not only, the staunch Republican one. I know there is a lot of the stereotypical/hypocritical ‘oh ah up the rah’ brigade with Celtic and Liverpool/Man United tattoos who make little effort with the Irish language. But they can comfortably say ‘we’ for British teams without a hint of irony. They also watch British entertainment shows, like British bands and speak English. Feck all Irish except ‘Tiocfaidh ár lá. Yet still go on about how they hate the English…. These types enjoy the mystic of Republicanism. But to me, those types are nothing more than plastic paddies. These are the people that Mary Lou ( ex Fianna Fáiler) et al are trying to appeal to in these ‘protests’ to try and get republican kudos, with the not so bright and/or bigots.
degrassinoel wrote: » anyone else think this stunt is just to poke a finger in Sinn Fein's eye before the elections? Honestly thought it was a waterford whispers article i was reading at first :pac:
upupup wrote: » Don't Commemorate The Black and Tans petitionhttps://www.change.org/p/fine-gael-don-t-commemorate-the-black-and-tans
markodaly wrote: » The reaction to this in my opinion is one of the reason Ireland still is not a mature country. We do have a very odd sense of our historical self and the mythmaking that surrounds pre 1916 Ireland. The whole 800 years blah blah blah stuff doesnt help. People going on about a UI and border poll. The mask is slipping and Unionists in the north are going to take note.
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