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RIC and DMP to be commemorated this month

ZuluDawn2020

Apparently a ceremony is going to be held attended by the Minister for Justice and Garda Commissioner to comemorate members of the DMP (Dublin Metropolitan Police) and RIC (Royal Irish Constabulary) killed during the Irish Revolution.

Does anyone else think this is grotesque?

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The high horse brigade

wazzer1 wrote: »

It means Dublin city council arent supporting it.

Yes, I realize that, but is this enough to call it off?

Sean.3516

dresden8 wrote: »

Ever see those pictures of evictions from the 19th century where they knock a hole in the wall with a battering ram to make the place unlivable. The RIC are always there to make sure it happens.

Families thrown onto the road and death.

But sure, at least the RIC were getting paid for it.

Sure the RIC did absolutely terrible things during the mid 19th. If ever there was a more morally justifiable time for an Irish rebellion it was during this time.

However the question is whether or not we should commemorate RIC men who died in the War of Independence which took place 70 years after the time you cite.

By this time, the British policy of outrightly abusing the Irish people in the hopes of “solving the Irish Problem” had been discontinued. People weren’t being thrown out of their homes in the middle of a famine at this time. Yes, there was widespread poverty and bad administration but this is not attributable to the men charged with enforcing the law.

They were a police force. Being a police force entails helping fight domestic rebellions. It’s tragic that for these men this meant fighting their fellow Irishmen and there’s no comparing them with mercenaries the Brits brought in who burned Cork city and shot up Croke Park.

Zetor19

When is Black and Tan Leo proposing we build a statue on o Connell street for that great Cromwell fella? Theses blue shirt cnuts better get it in the election.

wazzer1

The high horse brigade wrote: »

What does this mean to the commemorations?

It means Dublin city council arent supporting it.

[Deleted User]

careless sherpa wrote: »

More akin to the role of the SA police force during apartheid than a Garda managing traffic

That they even tried to make the comparison boggles the mind. They couldn’t be for real.

careless sherpa

spurious wrote: »

Like the guards are there to make sure Gemma O'Doherty's events 'happen'? To make sure football matches 'happen'?
Do you understand what a police force does?

More akin to the role of the SA police force during apartheid than a Garda managing traffic

[Deleted User]

spurious wrote: »

Like the guards are there to make sure Gemma O'Doherty's events 'happen'? To make sure football matches 'happen'?
Do you understand what a police force does?

We all know by now how the RIC policed football matches.

Millionaire only not

Who in gods earth proposed this commemoration in the first place !
or will it be the same as who ordered the famous photo copier !
In fairness we are electing stupid people , from the Healy Rae’s , Maria Bailey to ones that push buttons for absentee politicians !

cameramonkey

Sean.3516 wrote: »

If we can commemorate German soldiers who died during WW2 without commemorating the SS then we should be able to commemorate the RIC without commemorating the Black and Tans.

How do you think the black and tans got their information to target Irish people. It was provided by their fellow officers in the RIC and DMP. They not only supported the killing of Irish people but also carried out murders.
Thomas Mac Curtain was shot dead in front of his wife and son by a group of men with blackened faces, who were found to be members of the RIC by the official inquest into the event. The man who ordered the murder of MacCurtain RIC District Inspector Oswald Swanzy was later assassinated by the IRA. None of these men were black and tans,MacCurtain was shot dead five days before the tans arrived in Ireland.

The people that this commemoration will be honoring are both the black and tans and those like Swanzy and his henchmen who murdered Irish citizens at will. There was no difference between the tans and the RIC in their support for British rule and their eagerness to murder Irish people who wished for freedom.
Imagine the Irish government commemorating the likes of Oswald Swanzy and his gang of killers. Its frankly astonishing.

spurious

dresden8 wrote: »

Ever see those pictures of evictions from the 19th century where they knock a hole in the wall with a battering ram to make the place unlivable. The RIC are always there to make sure it happens.

Like the guards are there to make sure Gemma O'Doherty's events 'happen'? To make sure football matches 'happen'?
Do you understand what a police force does?

Dyr

Sean.3516 wrote: »

The fact that THESE MEN (NOT THE TANS in case this isn’t clear) were in a situation where they fought fellow Irishmen is a tragedy and ought there deaths ought to be commemorated as such.

The RIC were brutalising their fellow countrymen long before the Auxies and Tans showed up. Tomas McCurtain, lord mayor of Cork murdered in his home in front of his family by RIC men.

I said earlier that the apologists like yourself want to reduce the War of Independance to a naitonal tragedy: all those poor lads died, oh its a tragedy.

It's not a tragedy. The tragedy was previous 100 years, a tragedy which the RIC paid a key role in inflicting on the Irish people. I'm supremely grateful to the men who took the fight to the Crown Forces and put enough of them in the ground to end the tragedy.

LuasSimon

Will the people of Laois vote in
Charlie “ Black and Tan “ Flanagan in the next election ??

The high horse brigade

wazzer1 wrote: »

Tonight and it was passed

What does this mean to the commemorations?

wazzer1

Millionaire only not wrote: »

When was that motion put forward ?

Tonight and it was passed

saabsaab

Odhinn wrote: »

They had clear choices by 1919.

For some yes, others may have felt trapped in the situation. Has anyone here not done the right thing because they had little room for manoeuvre?

dresden8

Sean.3516 wrote: »

I’ve never subscribed to the belief that Irish Catholics who served in the RIC, Dublin Met or British Army were somehow “selling their souls”. Most of these catholic Irishmen were not ardent royalists but rather men trying to earn a living who simply could not afford the luxury of revolutionary idealism.

This is not to denigrate the revolutionaries, (I’m not making a value judgement about either camp) but to draw moral equivalence between these men who were professional policemen doing their jobs and the Black and Tans/Auxiliaries who were by contrast mercenaries who committed war crimes is just wrong.

I’ve always thought of the War of Independence as just as much a civil war as it was a war against an external power considering the extent to which the Irish fought against each other in the conflict. Most RIC/Dublin Met officers would have been members before the conflict began and therefore could not have been said to have signed up to kill Irishmen as the Tans did.

The fact that THESE MEN (NOT THE TANS in case this isn’t clear) were in a situation where they fought fellow Irishmen is a tragedy and ought there deaths ought to be commemorated as such.

Ever see those pictures of evictions from the 19th century where they knock a hole in the wall with a battering ram to make the place unlivable. The RIC are always there to make sure it happens.

Families thrown onto the road and death.

But sure, at least the RIC were getting paid for it.

Sean.3516

careless sherpa wrote: »

What should be done is use it as an opportunity to acknowledge their brutal history and commemorate their victims. Their role during the mid nineteenth century is as horrific as that of the tans

This sounds like more of a critique of British policy in Ireland than of the individuals who served in the RIC/DubMet during the War of Independence.

If we can commemorate German soldiers who died during WW2 without commemorating the SS then we should be able to commemorate the RIC without commemorating the Black and Tans.

careless sherpa

Sean.3516 wrote: »

I’ve never subscribed to the belief that Irish Catholics who served in the RIC, Dublin Met or British Army were somehow “selling their souls”. Most of these catholic Irishmen were not ardent royalists but rather men trying to earn a living who simply could not afford the luxury of revolutionary idealism.

This is not to denigrate the revolutionaries, (I’m not making a value judgement about either camp) but to draw moral equivalence between these men who were professional policemen doing their jobs and the Black and Tans/Auxiliaries who were by contrast mercenaries who committed war crimes is just wrong.

I’ve always thought of the War of Independence as just as much a civil war as it was a war against an external power considering the extent to which the Irish fought against each other in the conflict. Most RIC/Dublin Met officers would have been members before the conflict began and therefore could not have been said to have signed up to kill Irishmen as the Tans did.

The fact that THESE MEN (NOT THE TANS in case this isn’t clear) were in a situation where they fought fellow Irishmen is a tragedy and ought there deaths ought to be commemorated as such.

What should be done is use it as an opportunity to acknowledge their brutal history and commemorate their victims. Their role during the mid nineteenth century is as horrific as that of the tans

Sean.3516

I’ve never subscribed to the belief that Irish Catholics who served in the RIC, Dublin Met or British Army were somehow “selling their souls”. Most of these catholic Irishmen were not ardent royalists but rather men trying to earn a living who simply could not afford the luxury of revolutionary idealism.

This is not to denigrate the revolutionaries, (I’m not making a value judgement about either camp) but to draw moral equivalence between these men who were professional policemen doing their jobs and the Black and Tans/Auxiliaries who were by contrast mercenaries who committed war crimes is just wrong.

I’ve always thought of the War of Independence as just as much a civil war as it was a war against an external power considering the extent to which the Irish fought against each other in the conflict. Most RIC/Dublin Met officers would have been members before the conflict began and therefore could not have been said to have signed up to kill Irishmen as the Tans did.

The fact that THESE MEN (NOT THE TANS in case this isn’t clear) were in a situation where they fought fellow Irishmen is a tragedy and ought there deaths ought to be commemorated as such.

Millionaire only not

bobbysands81 wrote: »

[TWEET] https://twitter.com/bobbysands81/status/1214289108677382144?s=21[/TWEET]

When was that motion put forward ?

Odhinn

saabsaab wrote: »

They had joined when this was a regular police force and many helped or did not really fight the rebels. Others were trapped in their job -I 'm sure this is common enough elsewhere- caught between a rock and a hard place.

They had clear choices by 1919.

bobbysands81

[TWEET] https://twitter.com/bobbysands81/status/1214289108677382144?s=21[/TWEET]

the_syco

Millionaire only not wrote: »

Technically they were the elete of the scum ! Celebrate one ur celebrating them all !

The 'Tans were called in because the local RIC left the rural barracks.

bb12 wrote: »

There are sticking their fingers in wounds which are still open.

For some people, said wounds will never be allowed to close; the wounds provide too much political capital to be ever forgotten about.

saabsaab

Odhinn wrote: »

...and they get a free pass because...?

They had joined when this was a regular police force and many helped or did not really fight the rebels. Others were trapped in their job -I 'm sure this is common enough elsewhere- caught between a rock and a hard place.

saabsaab

saabsaab wrote: »

Someone was on the RTE this evening saying that they weren't commemorating the 'black and tans' only ordinary RIC police who died! If I get more details I'll post them.

A professor of History at UCD was the source just on RTE news.

Odhinn

saabsaab wrote: »

Someone was on the RTE this evening saying that they weren't commemorating the 'black and tans' only ordinary RIC police who died! If I get more details I'll post them.

...and they get a free pass because...?

bb12

my great grandmother who was a widow with 6 young children was terrorised in her own home over a full night by the RIC because there were rumours she had hidden someone involved in the rebellion...only for a very heavy wooden door and bars on the windows nobody could get in but the bullet marks in the door and house walls were still there to see when i was a child.

I attended school in Balbriggan and we were well taught what the black and tans did to that town. I remember the teachers bringing all the classes on a tour around the town to explain the attrocities which occured there.

absolute shame on Fine Gael and Leo for promoting an event such as this. It's mind blowing how anyone would consider this a good idea. There are sticking their fingers in wounds which are still open.

1800_Ladladlad

If people would like to sign the petition below that rejects the commemorations, please do.

https://www.change.org/p/fine-gael-don-t-commemorate-the-black-and-tans

signostic

From the Examiner
https://www.irishexaminer.com/viewpoints/analysis/when-the-horror-of-war-hits-homes-226373.html

PS O’Hegarty explained in the first episode of In the Name of the Republic that he became increasingly disenchanted with the IRA’s campaign.

“We glorified ambushes and stunts and jobs and secret executions,” he contended. “We abolished all the ordinary laws of morality and of public decency and of social responsibility.”

Ironically, O’Hegarty’s brother Sewas the brigadier of the Cork No 1 Brigade, “which carried out the greatest number of killings, even women and children were not spared,” according to Prof Eunan O’Halpin.

published in the journal.ie ... and commented on by a poster

“The difference between treason and patriotism is only a matter of dates.” ― Alexandre Dumas

https://www.thejournal.ie/ric-book-2743413-May2016/

ricero

Varadkar and Fine Gael are spinless.

This is an absolute insult to every irish person who fought and died for irish freedom. At this stage I would take anyone but Fine Gael leading this country.