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Child Item

Just got fired

Emilee

I only started working for this company 13 weeks ago, called in sick once, then another time cause of car issues.
Fast forward a week while working I get a disciplinary letter to attend a meeting which the letter is VERY official. No issues with performance! Just that I didn’t follow proper procedures when calling in sick, nor was i givin any policy or procedure in which to do so when I started my employment. Now I’m fired, my employer stated to me that he could not depend on me. There were reasons beyond my control when I called in to say I would not be in, Which I told him I was being treated very unfairly. I need advice please

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exaisle

The law was updated recently with regard to employment contracts....since March 2019 you must be given a statement of the main terms of employment within 5 days and the full terms of the contract within 2 months. This may or may not include a company handbook, depending on the employer.
If you didn't receive this, you have grounds for complaint at least.

However we must all remember that we've only heard one side of this story...

ankles

Why would you want to go back there?

lainey_d_123

jaxxx wrote: »

13 weeks. Assuming 5 day working weeks, that's 65 days. One day fully off due to illness. One day late cos of problems with the car. Taking the OP at their word, both things were unavoidable. Seems businesses just don't care for the 'human' in human resources anymore. Obviously some people take the mick altogether puling sickies left right and centre, but assuming the OP is sincere I just think it's a sad reflection on the world, just 2 days of a 65 day period.

"Johnny why weren't you at work today?"

"Oh it wasn't my fault, I was crossing the road at a zebra crossing, a bus decided to ignore it and flattened me. I broke 7 ribs, had a punctured lung but here I am 2 days later".

"Unacceptable, you're fired!"

Exactly. I hate the total lack of compassion on here.

Your joke reminds me of the time I was mugged on the way to work. I was violently attacked, had my phone stolen, almost got pushed under a moving bus, and arrived at work in a daze, shaking and panicked. The receptionist saw the state of me and told me to go to the guards and then home and that she'd explain to the manager what had happened.

The next day the manager comes over asking what happened the day before. Me stupidly thinking he was concerned about my welfare, told him I'd been the guards and was fine now, that my injuries were not too bad. No, the absolute stain on humanity wanted to know why I hadn't come to tell him in person and had 'let' the receptionist inform him. He was seriously more concerned about a petty procedural issue than the fact that one of his employees had been assaulted on the way to work and was hurt. I couldn't believe it. Put my notice in the same day.

splinter65

Hoboo wrote: »

I'm not talking about generic information as you provided. I'm referring to the opinion of posters when referring to employment law. It's mainly garnered from Google searches and ignores case law or recent updates, which aren't included in citizens information publications or website.

The biggest issue for me though is it's generally provided with little or no fact. Only working 15 weeks. No rights. Case closed.

Nonsense.

Ok. You’ve told us how wrong we all are and that none of us have any experience or proper knowledge of this area.
Nonsense you say.
Obviously you do have experience either personally or professionally.
So please go ahead and tell us all how you think the OP should proceed from here in order to achieve natural justice taking into account all her personal circumstances as she has spelled them out here.

amadangomor

I remember the days working for an agency on building sites during the boom and you could get let go very unjustly.

Two that stuck out were because I walked in on the project manager of the site smoking a joint. Never told a soul and wouldn't have either but the next Friday after work got the call from the agency that I wasn't required by them any more When in fact I was doing great and it was very busy.

The second was when there wasn't much to do so I took the initiative and grabbed a brush and started to clean up the very dirty basement. Got the call that evening that I was spotted sneaking down to the basement to hide :rolleyes: Getting let go for taking the initiative really grated

54and56

I'm sorry to hear of your troubles OP, sometimes life just gangs up on you but hopefully your daughter is and will be ok going forward, you get a new and better job and this unpleasant chapter in life will fade into the rear view mirror.

FWIW during probation you are effectively on trial to see if you're fitting in, you're competent in the job, you're diligent, you aren't bringing anything to work they aren't expecting and you're basically the person you sold them you were in the interview process.

For that reason your performance during the probation period needs to be the best you can deliver. If you give an employer reason(s) to question whether they hired the right person things can turn against you quickly as you have unfortunately found out.

In my experience employers may use a specific reason when communicating a notice of termination during probation but the true reasons are usually much more nuanced. What I mean by that is if they felt you weren't delivering as expected or weren't fitting in then the sick days (especially a sick day which was in fact a problem with transport day) can be a trigger for making a decision they may have already been considering.

Conversely, if they felt they'd made a good decision hiring you as you'd been meeting or exceeding their expectations in every way a day or two sick or required off during probation for very understandable personal reasons (providing you are as straight with them as is appropriate and I don't mean sharing details of your daughter's crisis rather saying there's an urgent personal family matter you need a day or two off for) then my experiences is employers will be as flexible as possible in order to retain an employee they value.

Its entirety possible the employer is just s bad employer, only you will know enough detail to know the truth.

Either way, try to take some learnings from what has otherwise been an unpleasant experience and best of luck finding a new job and for 2020 and beyond.

oholly121

This actually happened to a friend of mine a few years back, he was called into a meeting and fired in line with his probation the company gave a very grey and shadowy reason for letting him go.

Anyway he took it up with the WRC and went to court with it, the WRC actually found in his favour that due process was not followed and he was unfairly dismissed the thing is if the WRC find in your favour in under a year of employment they can only give recommendations and not legally binding rulings.

My 2 cents from what I read is that you could bring a case to the WRC and will probably win and have a recommendation in your favor but the company are not legally compelled to pay out any award it would be a moral victory.

You can start this process yourself by:
• Writing to your former company and making a request under the data protections acts for all personal information held about you on file by the employer.
• Explain also in the letter that you feel that due process was not followed and you feel you where unfairly dismissed and you are currently in the process of bringing a case to the WRC.
• Go to the WRC website and open up a case for yourself, outline why you are bringing this case.
• The WRC will go to your employer and ask would they be open to a mediation in this case - I’d say your old employers would say no, then you must escalate this yourself to the Labour Court directly where they MUST Attend

Id say if they take their own legal advice (In the scenario as to where labour court compels them to attend) they would be told its best to offer you a good ref and possible discretionary payment, perhaps cheaper for them instead of lawyering up and going to court.
Some companies just don’t want the hassle or trouble or indeed costs associated
You can represent yourself in both the WRC and labour court the WRC website tells you how to go about this.
It sounds what happened to you although in theory is legal its certainly not fair.

Asitis2019

AndyBoBandy wrote: »

2 days taken off for separate reasons within the 1st 3 months....

They probably see it as a sign of things to come, and it just not being worth their hassle.

Needlessly but deliberately aggressive response - and all too common on this site. Certainly an employer perspective

The poster was missing TWO days - i.e., assuming 60 days, 3.33% absence or 96.67% attendance. Performance, she says, was not an issue.

Asitis2019

zig wrote: »

Whatever about the sick one, the car one is a bit weird to state you're not coming in that day.

Not trying to be harsh but most people I know including myself wouldnt dream of 2 day out in a first 13 weeks.

Jesus wept

This is complete bull****. Your lying. Your friends are lying. Stop it. Please.

Now go and polish your halo

bladespin

Asitis2019 wrote: »

Jesus wept

This is complete bull****. Your lying. Your friends are lying. Stop it. Please.

Now go and polish your halo

They're not lying, though I can understand your response, there really are plenty of people working etc that would be mortified to call in sick.

beauf

...Plenty of people ended up mortified because they didn't call in sick...

Squidvicious

54and56 wrote: »

I'm sorry to hear of your troubles OP, sometimes life just gangs up on you but hopefully your daughter is and will be ok going forward, you get a new and better job and this unpleasant chapter in life will fade into the rear view mirror.

FWIW during probation you are effectively on trial to see if you're fitting in, you're competent in the job, you're diligent, you aren't bringing anything to work they aren't expecting and you're basically the person you sold them you were in the interview process.

For that reason your performance during the probation period needs to be the best you can deliver. If you give an employer reason(s) to question whether they hired the right person things can turn against you quickly as you have unfortunately found out.

In my experience employers may use a specific reason when communicating a notice of termination during probation but the true reasons are usually much more nuanced. What I mean by that is if they felt you weren't delivering as expected or weren't fitting in then the sick days (especially a sick day which was in fact a problem with transport day) can be a trigger for making a decision they may have already been considering.

Conversely, if they felt they'd made a good decision hiring you as you'd been meeting or exceeding their expectations in every way a day or two sick or required off during probation for very understandable personal reasons (providing you are as straight with them as is appropriate and I don't mean sharing details of your daughter's crisis rather saying there's an urgent personal family matter you need a day or two off for) then my experiences is employers will be as flexible as possible in order to retain an employee they value.

Its entirety possible the employer is just s bad employer, only you will know enough detail to know the truth.

Either way, try to take some learnings from what has otherwise been an unpleasant experience and best of luck finding a new job and for 2020 and beyond.

Good post.

I appreciate that losing your job in these circumstances is a real blow, not just financially but a real psychological blow too. It also comes at a really difficult time for the OP and I do hope that the OP's personal matters improve.

54and56 has given good advice as has oholly121. I would add to what 54and56 has said but perhaps suggesting that a phone call to the former employer might be an idea to ask if the OP's work performance was up to scratch or if there were any issues there. She could simply say that she's trying to learn from her experience there. I appreciate that contacting her former employer is probably the last thing that she wants to do right now, but it could be that, unbeknowns to her, there was some issue with her performance. As you say, an employer may be dissatisfied with performance but might use a pretext to dismiss to keep things simple. Of course, chances are that the employer will say nothing new but it might be worth a shot. Alternatively, there could be somebody in the know in that company that the OP could contact who might be able to shed a bit of light on the OP's dismissal.

I don't wish to say anything negative to the OP but, to be honest, my take on the dismissal is that it wasn't just about missing work on two days but that, for some reason, she didn't quite fit. And sometimes, even good people don't always fit an organisation, so even if I'm right, that may not reflect badly on the OP personally. Sometimes, we're just in the wrong job at the wrong time.

Squidvicious

oholly121 wrote: »

This actually happened to a friend of mine a few years back, he was called into a meeting and fired in line with his probation the company gave a very grey and shadowy reason for letting him go.

Anyway he took it up with the WRC and went to court with it, the WRC actually found in his favour that due process was not followed and he was unfairly dismissed the thing is if the WRC find in your favour in under a year of employment they can only give recommendations and not legally binding rulings.

My 2 cents from what I read is that you could bring a case to the WRC and will probably win and have a recommendation in your favor but the company are not legally compelled to pay out any award it would be a moral victory.

You can start this process yourself by:
• Writing to your former company and making a request under the data protections acts for all personal information held about you on file by the employer.
• Explain also in the letter that you feel that due process was not followed and you feel you where unfairly dismissed and you are currently in the process of bringing a case to the WRC.
• Go to the WRC website and open up a case for yourself, outline why you are bringing this case.
• The WRC will go to your employer and ask would they be open to a mediation in this case - I’d say your old employers would say no, then you must escalate this yourself to the Labour Court directly where they MUST Attend

Id say if they take their own legal advice (In the scenario as to where labour court compels them to attend) they would be told its best to offer you a good ref and possible discretionary payment, perhaps cheaper for them instead of lawyering up and going to court.
Some companies just don’t want the hassle or trouble or indeed costs associated
You can represent yourself in both the WRC and labour court the WRC website tells you how to go about this.
It sounds what happened to you although in theory is legal its certainly not fair.

Good advice technically. Personally, though, my view would be that the OP would be better off moving on with her life(just my tuppence worth, of course). However, if she really does want to pursue the issue, I think that she would also have a fairly nailed on case for some small compensation due to the fact that she wasn't given a written contract/terms of employment.
https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/employment_rights_and_conditions/contracts_of_employment/contract_of_employment.html

bladespin

beauf wrote: »

...Plenty of people ended up mortified because they didn't call in sick...

Agree, but still, took me years before I had my first sick day, still a last resort though I'll use one if I have to.

AdMMM

robinbird wrote: »

Nothing you can do. Most employers would see two seperate days off in first three months as a bit of a rag flag.
Particularly the car issue one. And there may have been other factors and they are just citing that in order to give a reason.

If your employer sees two reasonable days off in a 3 month period as a red flag then you should be running from that employer!

beauf

bladespin wrote: »

Agree, but still, took me years before I had my first sick day, still a last resort though I'll use one if I have to.

So what? Does everyone has the same biology or experience of life?

This is all irrelevant.

Graham

AdMMM wrote: »

If your employer sees two reasonable days off in a 3 month period as a red flag then you should be running from that employer!

Average that over a year and your talking not far off two weeks of additional "reasonable days off" on top of holidays.

And that's during the on-my-best-behaviour-probation-period.

bladespin

beauf wrote: »

So what? Does everyone has the same biology or experience of life?

This is all irrelevant.

It's not at all, as a probationer I'd be eager to make a good impression and not be seen as 'pulling a sickie' even if there was a reason for it, but each to their own.

2 days off inside 3 months would set off all kinds of warnings for me though.

beauf

bladespin wrote: »

It's not at all, as a probationer I'd be eager to make a good impression and not be seen as 'pulling a sickie' even if there was a reason for it, but each to their own.

2 days off inside 3 months would set off all kinds of warnings for me though.

You're implying that taking a sick day is never genuine.
That if someone says they are sick its never genuine.
Basically people never get sick enough not to go to work.

Maybe you should share some of your ideas on the long term illness forum and let us know how you get on.
Let them know they are not creating a "good impression"....

beauf

Graham wrote: »

Average that over a year and your talking not far off two weeks of additional "reasonable days off" on top of holidays.

And that's during the on-my-best-behaviour-probation-period.

Most places have sick leave policies with strict limits to all types of leave.
Things like a rolling counter totaled over 1, 2 and 4 yrs. your HR policies should indicate the limits.

Are you just ignoring that, are not aware because you've never been informed.

bladespin

beauf wrote: »

You're implying that taking a sick day is never genuine.
That if someone says they are sick its never genuine.
Basically people never get sick enough not to go to work.

Maybe you should share some of your ideas on the long term illness forum and let us know how you get on.
Let them know they are not creating a "good impression"....

Please don't tell me what I'm implying, I didn't realise OP was terminally ill, I read the thread but must have missed that, OP you have my sympathies but I wouldn't worry about a probationary job if you're dealing with a terminal illness.

I'm saying I wouldn't be inclined to take a sick day unless absolutely necessary, especially if I was on probation, even then I'd make damn sure a sick cert was delivered to work that day. Car trouble would excuse a late for me but not a day off.

I have missed days due to illness, 3 in 8 years with my current employer, down to a fairly serious illness, I wouldn't be afraid to take a sick day but haven't needed more than that thankfully.

[Deleted User]

With a car issue, you call your employer and explain your car has broken down and you are getting a taxi into work.

With the attempted suicide, you call your employer and explain that you have a very serious once off personal situation you need to sort out and you discuss with your daughter then get someone else to stay with her while you go to work, or you stay with her depending. It might sound harsh but I was in a similar type of situation once and had to make similar choices. You have to put your family first.

If you are out sick you get a doctors note whether requested or not.

If you just don't bother telling them anything but don't show up then I'd fire you too OP. Plenty of people out there who will show up or give a damn good reason why not.

It's a good lesson.

Graham

beauf wrote: »

Most places have sick leave policies with strict limits to all types of leave.
Things like a rolling counter totaled over 1, 2 and 4 yrs. your HR policies should indicate the limits.

Are you just ignoring that, are not aware because you've never been informed.

Cool, would you mind sharing a link to the legislation that defines those rolling counter sick leave limits?

beauf

bladespin wrote: »

Please don't tell me what I'm implying, I didn't realise OP was terminally ill, I read the thread but must have missed that, OP you have my sympathies but I wouldn't worry about a probationary job if you're dealing with a terminal illness.

I'm saying I wouldn't be inclined to take a sick day unless absolutely necessary, especially if I was on probation, even then I'd make damn sure a sick cert was delivered to work that day. Car trouble would excuse a late for me but not a day off.

I have missed days due to illness, 3 in 8 years with my current employer, down to a fairly serious illness, I wouldn't be afraid to take a sick day but haven't needed more than that thankfully.

A long term illness doesn't mean terminal. Arthritis is a long term illness.

Some have never taken a sick day in their life. They'll assume 3 days is way too many. I mean if you were working for 40 yrs its 3 weeks :eek:

[Deleted User]

beauf wrote: »

So what? Does everyone has the same biology or experience of life?

This is all irrelevant.

An employer ultimately doesn't care about your personal health - all they care about is you do your job efficiently and can be relied on.Although HR might tell you otherwise their only function is to keep the company protected and happy.

beauf

Graham wrote: »

Cool, would you mind sharing a link to the legislation that defines those rolling counter sick leave limits?

You want to see the legislation for terms and conditions that are entirely at the discretion of the employer?

bladespin

beauf wrote: »

A long term illness doesn't mean terminal. Arthritis is a long term illness.

Apologies for the assumption, I still didn't see where the OP mentioned that though.

beauf wrote: »

Some have never taken a sick day in their life. They'll assume 3 days is way too many. I mean if you were working for 40 yrs its 3 weeks :eek:

I've been working 24 years so my stats are improving, thanks, I'm with my current employer 8 years, I'd much rather not have gotten arthritis but hey, good guess btw.

beauf

Deleted User wrote: »

An employer ultimately doesn't care about your personal health - all they care about is you do your job efficiently and can be relied on.Although HR might tell you otherwise their only function is to keep the company protected and happy.

Totally agree.

This thread isn't about sick leave. Though people are obsessed with it obviously.

Its about procedure and the probationary period of a contract.

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/employment_rights_and_conditions/contracts_of_employment/contract_of_employment.html

partyguinness

OP,

It was not just the missing days that got you sacked- just a convenient story. They wanted rid of you full stop.

I am an employer now. I was an employee- 10 years ago I was fired for a BS reason (truth was they could not afford me and a few of us were show out- place went totally bust a few months later). Given some BS excuse about performance. But the place had long sorry history of doing this to people on probation and I had been warned. I had already been to several interviews etc and had a new role by the end of that week.

I have sat at both sides of the table.

Sorry to say but you were regarded as expendable. I do not know what line of work you were in but by the sounds of it it was entry level/min pay with plenty of people to replace you if needed.

Crap start to the year I know but you just got to get back on the horse and put it behind you. Good luck.

Seanachai

AdMMM wrote: »

If your employer sees two reasonable days off in a 3 month period as a red flag then you should be running from that employer!

I rarely use all of my sick days in a year but reading this makes me want to go off-grid and be done with companies for good.