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RIC and DMP to be commemorated this month

ZuluDawn2020

Apparently a ceremony is going to be held attended by the Minister for Justice and Garda Commissioner to comemorate members of the DMP (Dublin Metropolitan Police) and RIC (Royal Irish Constabulary) killed during the Irish Revolution.

Does anyone else think this is grotesque?

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Edgware

CrankyHaus wrote: »

So we should commemorate, that is have a state ceremony of respect for, anything, any Irish person has ever done, ever?

Looking forward to the state commemoration of Lord Haw Haw so: "Shure he was just a Galway lad who was mad for the Nazis, people need to move on".

Eoin Duffy's contingent of Fascist volunteers in the Spanish Civil War:
"Irishmen no different than the rest of us, only barstool Republicans and Communists would have a problem with paying our respects to their courage".

Remembering our history "warts and all" would acknowledge the reality of the RIC rather than whitewash it. This proposal is the opposite of remembering our history; it is a proposal to forget our history and replace it with lies.

Burke and Hare, lovely lads! Where would the medical researchers be without them?
Nurse Cadden. Shure she was a woman before her time. If she died now Harris and his crew of ***** would be lining up to acknowledge her services to obstetrics

corner of hells

Interesting read , bearing in mind what these countries inflicted upon each other.

"Sologubovka Cemetery"

"Up to 10,000 German military dead are found and buried each year in this part of Russia.[5] The cemetery has become a point of reconciliation between German and Russian youth, who jointly search for unmarked graves around Sologubovka and elsewhere in Russia.[6] The Goethe-Institut sponsors events and exhibitions at Sologubovka Cemetery to heighten awareness of the missing soldiers from World War II and to facilitate mutual German-Russian understanding and recognition of war dead.[2] The German War Graves Commission estimates there are still many thousands of German unmarked war graves throughout Russia and areas of the former Eastern Front but has successfully located and reinterred over 600,000 in German sponsored cemeteries like Sologubovka since the end of the Cold War."

Zebra3

Next week.

FG proposes commemorating the fallen landlords of The Great Hunger.

Edgware

Zebra3 wrote: »

Next week.

FG proposes commemorating the fallen landlords of The Great Hunger.

And the legal masterminds that sent Fenians to Fremantle.

Buford T. Justice XIX

This Twitter account might interest some of you and is on point for this discussion anyway.
https://twitter.com/131Weeks/status/1213442348912431105?s=19

Strazdas

FTA69 wrote: »

They weren't "murdered in the line of duty" they were killed as part of a war of liberation in which they fought with an anti-democratic imperialist force. The way Flanagan is banging on you'd swear the Irish struggle for independence was some sort of criminal conspiracy or something.

Absolutely unbelievable commentary from a government minister. The people who fought for and established Irish independence were "murderers" while the forces of British occupation were "good men doing their duty".

Utterly pathetic.

The situation in Ireland between 1916 and 1921 was a lot more nuanced than the simplistic nonsense you are giving here. Nobody on either side knew how things would pan out or if Ireland would get its independence at all. Throwing phrases like "anti democratic" into the mix doesn't help.

I assume you think the De Valera side during the Civil War were also "anti-democratic" and "murderers"?

Dyr

Strazdas wrote: »

The situation in Ireland between 1916 and 1921 was a lot more nuanced than the simplistic nonsense you are giving here. Nobody on either side knew how things would pan out or if Ireland would get its independence at all. Throwing phrases like "anti democratic" into the mix doesn't help.

I assume you think the De Valera side during the Civil War were also "anti-democratic" and "murderers"?

Enlgihten us about the nuances so.

Strazdas

Bambi wrote: »

Enlgihten us about the nuances so.

Rising was very unpopular in 1916. Even after the General Election of November 1918 and Sinn Fein winning many seats, there was a lot of unease about the violence which began to break out from early 1919 onward. Sections of the community supported it, others were deeply alarmed by it and did not support the assassinations of RIC and DMP officers.

Irish people assumed after the general election that there would be a peaceful outcome and negotiated settlement....nobody realised that a war of independence and civil war was coming down the tracks.

Dyr

Strazdas wrote: »

Rising was very unpopular in 1916. Even after the General Election of November 1918 and Sinn Fein winning many seats, there was a lot of unease about the violence which began to break out from early 1919 onward. Sections of the community supported it, others were deeply alarmed by it and did not support the assassinations of RIC and DMP officers.

Irish people assumed after the general election that there would be a peaceful outcome and negotiated settlement....nobody realised that a war of independence and civil war was coming down the tracks.

Ah right, "nuance" meaning revisionism.

"Many seats" lol thats some nuance alright.

Sinn Fein didn't win many seats, they won by a landside in 1918. Their candidates were people who had fought in the rising of 1916 and they were all elected, so it turned out to be pretty bloody popular. The second point in their manifesto made it damn clear where a group that had staged a rebellion two years previously (and had their own army) stood on armed action:

By making use of any and every means available to render impotent the power of England to hold Ireland in subjection by military force or otherwise.

The Irish people knew what they were voting for and they voted overwhelmingly for it.

The RIC and DMP knew they had a choice. Some of them chose to recognise the will of the Irish people. Some of them chose to resign and take themselves out of the sights of the IRA and some of them chose to fight for the Crown rather than the people of Ireland. They were belligerants no different to all the other Crown forces. That was their reality and they no more deserve the recognition of the state than their fellow RIC men in the Auxillary division. Fine Gael have a policy of commemorating the War of Independance like it was the sinking of the Titanic, some sort of tragedy, "it's very sad, people died so lets remember them all". It's not a bloody tragedy, the previous 100 years were a tragedy. We should be thankful to those that ended the tragedy, not those that perpetuated it

KWAG2019

Congratulations to Mayor Cathal Crowe of Clare who is not attending this event as he regards it as revisionism gone too far.

end of the road

this is absolutely disgraceful and shameful, an act of contempt tords our country, it's history and those who faught to free it from brutality, bigotry, classism, and all the trimmings of british rule in the empire

the RIC/DMP were terrorists, brutalisers, and a hell of a lot more. they brutalised our people, degraded them, and lots more, they deserve nothing.
there will be no surrender to the re-writing of our history, no surrender to revisionism, no surrender to white washing.
signed, a very prowd irish man.

Zebra3

Strazdas wrote: »

Rising was very unpopular in 1916. Even after the General Election of November 1918 and Sinn Fein winning many seats, there was a lot of unease about the violence which began to break out from early 1919 onward. Sections of the community supported it, others were deeply alarmed by it and did not support the assassinations of RIC and DMP officers.

Irish people assumed after the general election that there would be a peaceful outcome and negotiated settlement....nobody realised that a war of independence and civil war was coming down the tracks.

Yeah, those who supported the British occupation.

Millionaire only not

Fair play to him !

https://www.rte.ie/news/munster/2020/0104/1104339-royal-irish-constabulary/

KWAG2019

A terribly misjudged event. It was possible to have an event that remembered all those who died 1918-23. It was possible to honour those who fought and died for our freedom 1918-23 without reopening wounds. It is not possible to honour those who fought against our freedom from oppression, our freedom from the ingrained slavery of a colonized people (still evident today in some), our freedom from British abuse and tyranny and also honour those who fought for independence.
There was no need for this RIC/DMP event. It is divisive.

whisky_galore

KWAG2019 wrote: »

A terribly misjudged event. It was possible to have an event that remembered all those who died 1918-23. It was possible to honour those who fought and died for our freedom 1918-23 without reopening wounds. It is not possible to honour those who fought against our freedom from oppression, our freedom from the ingrained slavery of a colonized people (still evident today in some), our freedom from British abuse and tyranny and also honour those who fought for independence.
There was no need for this RIC/DMP event. It is divisive.

What do you mean, reopening wounds?
What wounds? Is this going to spark off WOI or Civil War part deux?

All survivors of the WOI are long dead.

All I note are people who have never been in the WOI or seen real violence in their lives being offended by and for dead people.

Phoebas

KWAG2019 wrote: »

It is divisive.

There are a great many people only too willing to be divided.

It's a commemoration (not a celebration or an endorsement) of events 100 years ago - you'd swear reading this thread that the RIC were still in the Castle.

corks finest

ZuluDawn2020 wrote: »

Apparently a ceremony is going to be held attended by the Minister for Justice and Garda Commissioner to comemorate members of the DMP (Dublin Metropolitan Police) and RIC (Royal Irish Constabulary) killed during the Irish Revolution.

Does anyone else think this is grotesque?

Yes I do as a Corkman ,as a republican,I find it disgusting

corks finest

ZuluDawn2020 wrote: »

Apparently a ceremony is going to be held attended by the Minister for Justice and Garda Commissioner to comemorate members of the DMP (Dublin Metropolitan Police) and RIC (Royal Irish Constabulary) killed during the Irish Revolution.

Does anyone else think this is grotesque?

Having lived in the 6 counties for 20 years,( home now in Cork)and a a republican lived through the hunger strikes etc,friend of bloody Sunday relatives I find it abhorrent

tipptom

Phoebas wrote: »

There are a great many people only too willing to be divided.

It's a commemoration (not a celebration or an endorsement) of events 100 years ago - you'd swear reading this thread that the RIC were still in the Castle.

Let Britain commemorate their native collaborators, informers and traitors who worked hard for terrorist crown forces.
FG preparing themselves for good news story's from the Sunday spindependant for the months running up to the election.

You couldn't make this sh*t up.

lmimmfn

Is there an official link to this planned commeration? OP doesn't include one so therefore not commenting

Strazdas

Bambi wrote: »

Ah right, "nuance" meaning revisionism.

"Many seats" lol thats some nuance alright.

Sinn Fein didn't win many seats, they won by a landside in 1918. Their candidates were people who had fought in the rising of 1916 and they were all elected, so it turned out to be pretty bloody popular. The second point in their manifesto made it damn clear where a group that had staged a rebellion two years previously (and had their own army) stood on armed action:

By making use of any and every means available to render impotent the power of England to hold Ireland in subjection by military force or otherwise.

The Irish people knew what they were voting for and they voted overwhelmingly for it.

The RIC and DMP knew they had a choice. Some of them chose to recognise the will of the Irish people. Some of them chose to resign and take themselves out of the sights of the IRA and some of them chose to fight for the Crown rather than the people of Ireland. They were belligerants no different to all the other Crown forces. That was their reality and they no more deserve the recognition of the state than their fellow RIC men in the Auxillary division. Fine Gael have a policy of commemorating the War of Independance like it was the sinking of the Titanic, some sort of tragedy, "it's very sad, people died so lets remember them all". It's not a bloody tragedy, the previous 100 years were a tragedy. We should be thankful to those that ended the tragedy, not those that perpetuated it

Where do you stand on the Civil War? You have very strong opinions on 1919-21......equally strong opinions on 1922-23 I assume?

FTA69

Strazdas wrote: »

The situation in Ireland between 1916 and 1921 was a lot more nuanced than the simplistic nonsense you are giving here. Nobody on either side knew how things would pan out or if Ireland would get its independence at all. Throwing phrases like "anti democratic" into the mix doesn't help.

Eh no mate it was anti-Democratic in every sense of the word considering the British government actively proscribed political organisations and newspapers that it didn’t like. In 1918 the Irish people voted to establish an Irish Republic and the majority of MPs established a parliament in Dublin which was immediately declared illegal and whose TDs were imprisoned. The people responsible for carrying this out (and who also killed the Lord Mayor of Cork) were the Royal Irish Constabulary.

There was a clear division in the country - they picked the side of the British.

I’m well aware of the history of this period, and in my experience those who are often keen to try and sanitise the reputation of the RIC and their colleagues in the Black and Tans in the name of “nuance” are usually just coming out with same unimaginative post-colonial b*llocks you’ll find in every ex-colony.

FTA69

corks finest wrote: »

Yes I do as a Corkman ,as a republican,I find it disgusting

Well the people who burned Cork City as a military reprisal are the moral equivalent of the seven people they shot dead while doing it of course.

We must all have a ‘mature’ perspective on it you see.

corner of hells

Thread seems to be turning into a monologue about Cork.

Dyr

Strazdas wrote: »

Where do you stand on the Civil War? You have very strong opinions on 1919-21......equally strong opinions on 1922-23 I assume?

Is that a desperate attempt at a subject change I see?

Phoebas

tipptom wrote: »

Let Britain commemorate their native collaborators, informers and traitors who worked hard for terrorist crown forces.

RIC and DMP members were Irish, not British; no more or less Irish than anyone else.

Phoebas

Bambi wrote: »

Is that a desperate attempt at a subject change I see?

Not really a subject change.
RIC and DMP members found themselves on the wrong side of history and were seen as legitimate targets of republicans; the same could be said for those on the wrong side of the civil war a few years later.

un5byh7sqpd2x0

Edgware wrote: »

Burke and Hare, lovely lads! Where would the medical researchers be without them?

Where would the patrons of a certain triangle in present day Edinburgh be without the delights of the Burke & Hare?

dresden8

super_furry wrote: »

Not at all.

If there's ever going to be any hopes of a United Ireland, it's going to be crucial to show that unionists and loyalists will be respected and treated as equal in unity.

It may be distasteful to those of a Republican persuasion but gestures like this offer a real example of inclusivity.

Just after we see Arlene lay a wreath at Bobby Sands grave.

In the interests of maturity, reconciliation and inclusivity.

FTA69

Phoebas wrote: »

RIC and DMP members were Irish, not British; no more or less Irish than anyone else.

In fairness he said “native collaborators”.