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Messy farm inheritance issue

roosky

Hi all,

I have a friend involved in a messy issue and I would appreciate your opinions on it as she came to me for advice and i want to have a balanced point to make.

Okay so her father and mother have a 80 acre sucker farm, she is actively involved in the farm and also does all book work and herd health and breeding decisions. Working away from home but home every weekend working on farm and takes holidays for calving etc...

She plans to return home in next two years to farm with father (will also have off farm job) and to live on farm or locally. She has two brothers living in Dublin with good jobs and no interest in farming and have no involvement in the farm or never had.

The parents have decided to split the farm equally between the three kids and said one can buy out the other if they want to farm.....obviously buying your home farm even at 2/3 of market value is not an attractive option and planning life and career around a 25 odd acre farm is silly.

Do you feel she has reason to feel upset and let down by her parents as she feels if she was an only son working in agri industry, actively involved in the family farm, planning on moving home and farming and had two sisters with no interest in the farm that the farm would not be split three ways and left unviable looking forward.

Are her parents doing the fairest thing or are they being silly to have a child interested in carrying on the family farm and letting that opportunity slip in the interest of “fairness” regardless of the gender thing ??

TIA

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mycro2013

runawaybishop wrote: »

That's not how farming works.

The only thing I can advise is for the OP's friend to resolve the issue as quickly as possible. If you think it is messy now, wait until it involves the next generation. As the issue will involve spouses and off spring. I'm not trying to scaremonger but I have encountered these issues numerous times before.

Part of the explanation given by parents for these kind of arrangements is it can be a form of security in old age as each child has an obligation to look after them when the time occurs and they are not relying solely on one person to provide care.

[Deleted User]

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

Then by thinking they are entitled to land because they worked them farm is looking to get paid twice for the same work.

You'd have to ask the parents if they considered it paying twice, if they wanted it could have been put in a family trust. With the fun and games that would bring

Mach Two

Millionaire only not wrote: »

U can’t have fairness when it comes to farms , if it’s big enough to divide between siblings if there all interested fine !
After that it usually goes to the one who work’s and is prepared to mind the old ones in later year’s !
Take this farm giving it to 2 sons who looks like they’ve no interest for there other half’s to blow it in BT ‘s . They’ve there bed med go and lie in it !

Exactly. This is the correct approach to take.

mycro2013

Mach Two wrote: »

Exactly. This is the correct approach to take.

As the old adage around these parts states " expect nothing and you won't be disappointed ".

beauf

Mach Two wrote: »

Exactly. This is the correct approach to take.

Well it's a farmer (the father) the daughter has to convince. Not us. The daughter has find out why it's not been enough this far.

JJayoo

Since the brothers weren't expecting it to be split can you not lease their land for a small amount

Reggie.

mycro2013 wrote: »

As the old adage around these parts states " expect nothing and you won't be disappointed ".

This is true. Also the hearse doesn't have a towbar either

It's very important that OP and her father take professional advice together. The fathers solicitor and possibly farm advisor should be consulted. Two issues at play. First is viability of a split farm. And second is tax liability for the beneficiaries of will.

Splitting a viable farm on value will mean large amounts of land will be lost, if yards and farm house are to be retained in one parcel. As pointed out, splitting a farm often makes it unviable. This needs to be considered by the parents.

Inheritance tax is not simple either, it's not as simple as do the green cert and your liability drops to 1%. Existing assets owned by beneficiary are factored in.

Another factor at play is future possible nursing home requirement of the parents and the "fair deal" scheme. There's a big assumption by OP parents that succession is triggered by death. But a bad health run towards the end might and poor succession planing before the event, could mean a very hefty take by the state on death of parent. Fair deal has some caps for farm assets, where there's a "certified successor" to keep farm going as a entity, which wouldn't apply in this case as parents propose to split everything equally.

A possible solution is that farm, including yard and sheds are parcelled as one piece. All stock assets are another, including Bank accounts, shares, entitlements etc. The farm house and garden another. A fair split might arise out of farm going to daughter. Cash assets split 3 ways. The house and garden sold and divided among brothers. Again this is where solicitor can advise and help proper succession is achieved.

De_man

rn wrote: »

A possible solution is that farm, including yard and sheds are parcelled as one piece. All stock assets are another, including Bank accounts, shares, entitlements etc. The farm house and garden another. A fair split might arise out of farm going to daughter. Cash assets split 3 ways. The house and garden sold and divided among brothers. Again this is where solicitor can advise and help proper succession is achieved.

I would fully support this approach; but also to get separate independent valuations (3) and use the average.

This is a potential minefield,If there’s any hint of discontent I would suggest that each party be independently represented, the smallest issue can easily escalate to families not speaking for generations.

The thread does not state if the sons assist. I would be very surprised if they go home on holidays and not work the farm, it would be expected of them

[Deleted User]

At the end of the day, it’s the parents decision. Maybe they don’t want to show favouritism by dividing the property.

blackbox

If the father died first, will he leave nothing to his wife?

handlemaster

parents are correct the farm is the inheritance and should be divuded equally other wise issues will arise

patsy_mccabe

How many times has it to be said on here, you can't divide an 80acre farm. It's complete nonsense. It's like trying to divide a house.
Only way to divide it is sell up, give a huge chunk to solicitors, tax man etc and then each buy a new car with what's left.

Only real viable option is for one person to get it. That's the way it has always been, and for good reason.

jackboy

handlemaster wrote: »

parents are correct the farm is the inheritance and should be divuded equally other wise issues will arise

That’s fine if the parents are ok with the farm being discontinued. The sons will probably sell their bits, planting or leasing 25 acres is not really worth the hassle. The daughter will then need to decide if she will continue to do the books and spend her weekends working on the farm.

De_man

jackboy wrote: »

That’s fine if the parents are ok with the farm being discontinued. The sons will probably sell their bits, planting or leasing 25 acres is not really worth the hassle. The daughter will then need to decide if she will continue to do the books and spend her weekends working on the farm.

Looks like the parents are ok with the farm being discontinued, in a previous post the mother experienced family breakdown and wants everything divided equally;

Hopefully the wishes of her parents will be respected, unfortunately it looks as if history will be repeated.

It might be better served if the family met privately-no spouses and try to reach an amicable agreement

dubrov

I guess it comes down to priorities for the parents.

If they want to preserve the farm at all costs, then it cannot be divided.
If they want to fairly split their children's inheritance then the farm will go.

It sounds like they have already made their choice.

pablo128

dubrov wrote: »

I guess it comes down to priorities for the parents.

If they want to preserve the farm at all costs, then it cannot be divided.
If they want to fairly split their children's inheritance then the farm will go.

It sounds like they have already made their choice.

In light of that, the daughter should pursue a career of her own while she's still young, and the parents should sell up when they become unable to run the farm on their own.

That's being realistic about it.

dubrov

pablo128 wrote: »

In light of that, the daughter should pursue a career of her own while she's still young, and the parents should sell up when they become unable to run the farm on their own.

That's being realistic about it.

Agreed.

If she continues to help on the farm, she should be paid for her work either directly or via increased inheritance share.

wrangler

dubrov wrote: »

Agreed.

If she continues to help on the farm, she should be paid for her work either directly or via increased inheritance share.

Pay as they go I'd say, landowner could change the ''inheritance'' any time.
Challenging wills is seldom successful except of course for the solicitors

maidhc

handlemaster wrote: »

parents are correct the farm is the inheritance and should be divuded equally other wise issues will arise

One of the main things that gave rise to the Potato famine (apart from the blight obviously) was the practice in Ireland at the time of dividing lands between (many) children. The end result was a lot of nonviable holdings.

The sensible thing is to always view a farm of land in terms of its revenue generating ability, not its value on the open market.

Lime Tree Farm

maidhc wrote: »

One of the main things that gave rise to the Potato famine (apart from the blight obviously) was the practice in Ireland at the time of dividing lands between (many) children. The end result was a lot of nonviable holdings.

The sensible thing is to always view a farm of land in terms of its revenue generating ability, not its value on the open market.

My thoughts, exactly. And that was policy driven for a reason (Penal Laws).

handlemaster

jackboy wrote: »

That’s fine if the parents are ok with the farm being discontinued. The sons will probably sell their bits, planting or leasing 25 acres is not really worth the hassle. The daughter will then need to decide if she will continue to do the books and spend her weekends working on the farm.

It's the parents asset and decision. If they gave it to just one kid there would be a court case .etc etc

pablo128

dubrov wrote: »

Agreed.

If she continues to help on the farm, she should be paid for her work either directly or via increased inheritance share.

If I was her I wouldn't even work there for a wage. It's one thing sacrificing all your spare time and holidays for years and years if there's something at the end of it.

She would get more doing overtime in work. And still get her annual holidays.

Like I already said, let's see if the mother would get stuck in if it was only herself and the father on the farm. I think the mother is taking the daughter for granted. Sometimes you have to put manners on people, so you don't get walked on.

foodie86

pablo128 wrote: »

If I was her I wouldn't even work there for a wage. It's one thing sacrificing all your spare time and holidays for years and years if there's something at the end of it.

She would get more doing overtime in work. And still get her annual holidays.

Like I already said, let's see if the mother would get stuck in if it was only herself and the father on the farm. I think the mother is taking the daughter for granted. Sometimes you have to put manners on people, so you don't get walked on.

Mother could be well used to working on farm though, difficult to asses situation when we only have one side. Could be a case of the brothers were never encouraged to work on the farm and all were educated so that they could work off farm with view to selling down the line.

Lots of girls could say they give a hand at home in the house therefore should be entitled to the home house but doesn’t always work out fairly like that in particular if there is land with it.
No easy solution, could provide site for them to sell if possible or pay into their mortgages.

_Brian

Becks610 wrote: »

Does her father want her to come home and farm with him as it seems really unfair that he would let her come home and then not give the farm? At least he told her what he was planning - imagine the hurt afterwards?

Neighbor here is late 50's, been the main farmer now for 25 years since his father died, father said he would have the place but it all went to the mother 25 years ago, she said work away and it will all go to you when I'm gone.. ~70Acres and sheds.. Shes gone now, old age and not suddenly, no will made, 7 siblings looking for a share of the place..
The guy has literally spent his whole life working on a promise that was renaged on in the very end. Bacheor, was living with mother.

I'm sure he has a legal case to make based on all his hours spend working the place and everything but even herd number is in mothers name.

doc22

_Brian wrote: »

Neighbor here is late 50's, been the main farmer now for 25 years since his father died, father said he would have the place but it all went to the mother 25 years ago, she said work away and it will all go to you when I'm gone.. ~70Acres and sheds.. Shes gone now, old age and not suddenly, no will made, 7 siblings looking for a share of the place..
The guy has literally spent his whole life working on a promise that was renaged on in the very end. Bacheor, was living with mother.

I'm sure he has a legal case to make based on all his hours spend working the place and everything but even herd number is in mothers name.

What was he living on for 25 years if herd number in mother's name?

alps

doc22 wrote: »

What was he living on for 25 years if herd number in mother's name?

Often very little...

alps

This is a hard read thread...better off not dipping in anymore..

Heart goes out to those that have been explicitly or otherwise been given legitimate expectations, just to have those expectations denied..

Huge void in financial and inheritance planning in Ireland.

Most disturbing comment here was from the retired solicitor. God help anyone who went there for advise..

Just glad we are involved in DG's where succession is discussed, plans and eventualities are discussed and where we have access to proper professional help...

The worst option would be to do as the mother wishes. Her reasons are honourable, but can never be achieved. She's imposing the right solution for her original family to this family problem.

It destroys the farm that has been built up and will likely give a lot to the tax man. As one person outlined earlier a fair settlement is not an equal settlement in this case.

Donald Trump

rn wrote: »

The worst option would be to do as the mother wishes. Her reasons are honourable, but can never be achieved. She's imposing the right solution for her original family to this family problem.

It destroys the farm that has been built up and will likely give a lot to the tax man. As one person outlined earlier a fair settlement is not an equal settlement in this case.

Tax man doesn't necessarily have to get it if the meet the criteria for ag relief and hold onto it for a few years before selling.

Even without that relief, sure they'd have to pay feck all, or even zero, as the threshold for children is probably high enough