The Dominance of Dublin GAA Mod warning post#1

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

Yes there is justifiable reason - several of them. They have been explained to you numerous times at length.
No I wouldnt subscribe to that at all, nor would any reasonable person. The system needs 2 tweaks. Split dublin and then offer amalgamation to certain counties. Then just lay back and watch it flourish as a sport. The money dublin bring in now would be dwarfed by what would come in, in that scenario, in my opinion.

Re being about county identity, funny there was no worry about that when dublin pushed to be funded as a province. Can you explain that?

like splitting Dublin would help the smaller counties. Which isnt true. Dublin split in two would still beat a lot of counties on fairly regular basis so that isnt true.
And amalgamation isnt needed either. Counties need to accept there should be tiers within the championship unless you go wholesale and have a draft system and ignore the county system altogether at the top level.
The sport wouldnt flourish if you just amalgamate teams who have no history of playing together and have always seen these sides as rivals. Welsh rugby in the pro era is perfect example of that. Look at the regions and their black of success

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

there is no justifiable reason to call Dublin a province or region. If we are going down that route then the whole inter county structure should be thrown out as it's no longer about county identity. And it cant simply be split Dublin but alter many other large counties as well.

Yes there is justifiable reason - several of them. They have been explained to you numerous times at length.
No I wouldnt subscribe to that at all, nor would any reasonable person. The system needs 2 tweaks. Split dublin and then offer amalgamation to certain counties. Then just lay back and watch it flourish as a sport. The money dublin bring in now would be dwarfed by what would come in, in that scenario, in my opinion.

Re being about county identity, funny there was no worry about that when dublin pushed to be funded as a province. Can you explain that?

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

Well in fairness, if they can ok massive financial doping, this would be easily on the cards.
Re splitting fingal from dublin, why? I dont think that is really fair, you are basically offering fingal as the sacrificial lamb there. Dublin should simply be recast as a province (as it already has been in terms of funding) and split into 2 county teams..

there is no justifiable reason to call Dublin a province or region. If we are going down that route then the whole inter county structure should be thrown out as it's no longer about county identity. And it cant simply be split Dublin but alter many other large counties as well.

Hawkeye9212 wrote: »

Let's assume this proposal is ever taken seriously (unlikely). I'd split Fingal from Dublin. That takes us down to a population of 1 million with the added benefit of not having a stupid name like North Dublin. Maybe take more parts of Northside like Ballymun.

Well in fairness, if they can ok massive financial doping, this would be easily on the cards.
Re splitting fingal from dublin, why? I dont think that is really fair, you are basically offering fingal as the sacrificial lamb there. Dublin should simply be recast as a province (as it already has been in terms of funding) and split into 2 county teams..

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

in no way can it be shown splitting Dublin will help every county. Fairer chance at what exactly? A split Dublin will not help wicklows, Carlows or many other counties.
The issue about choice of sports is very much an issue. It is far easier to have alternatives and multiple alternative activities to be involved in in a large city compared to many counties or at least areas within those counties.
I said a second Dublin side may make a super 8s but again how does that aid other counties as it then closes off another spot for another county who would make it if just one Dublin side. Splitting Dublin makes far more issues than it solves

Its basic logic man. When the one majorly out of kilter county is brought closer into line with the average, it gives everyone else a fairer chance, without exception.
The other ills of carlow or wicklow are not connected to dublin and so should be treated as such. Are you actually trying to suggest that every issue in the gaa must be fixed in one move, or no move can be made? What a load of nonsense.
Re alternatives. What sports are only available in dublin and nowhere else? And which of them are hoovering up so many kids that it is hampering development to the point that a school down the country that can barely field a team are better equipped than the masses of those in dublin?? These phantom choices simply dont exist.
Your logic is very wishy washy. Give some actual details please.

Hawkeye9212

Let's assume this proposal is ever taken seriously (unlikely). I'd split Fingal from Dublin. That takes us down to a population of 1 million with the added benefit of not having a stupid name like North Dublin. Maybe take more parts of Northside like Ballymun.

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

Have you any proof to back up this assertion? Id have serious reservations about it personally. Kids in these rural schools might not get the chance to play at all because they may not be able to field teams or have very poor facilities. Whereas there will be no child in dublin who wishes to play gaa, not having the opportunity to do so. Some might not want to play, but then some wont want to play everywhere. There will be more in dublin simply because there are more people, but that is simply mathematical logic rather than anything else.
This thing about kids having more sports in the capital is quite spuriousto he honest about it. In any other walk of life, the idea that the lad down in ballygobackward with absolutely minimal facilities is somehow better equipped to play the game than guys with coaches and facilities coming out their ears, would frankly never be given consideration.

Splitting Dublin helps every single county, wirhout exception, by virtue of the fact that it gives them a fairer chance.
The fact that you accept that a second dublin team would make the super 8s, highlights how warranted the split is. Truth be told, they could go much further than the super 8s.

in no way can it be shown splitting Dublin will help every county. Fairer chance at what exactly? A split Dublin will not help wicklows, Carlows or many other counties.
The issue about choice of sports is very much an issue. It is far easier to have alternatives and multiple alternative activities to be involved in in a large city compared to many counties or at least areas within those counties.
I said a second Dublin side may make a super 8s but again how does that aid other counties as it then closes off another spot for another county who would make it if just one Dublin side. Splitting Dublin makes far more issues than it solves

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

what is playing population? Potential of growth far larger in Dublin in capital with far more who'll not have experience playing gaa compared to the very rural county cork. .
Sponsorship is higher in Dublin bit that doesn't mean and cannot mean that development funding should have to be lower. You cant put the two together.

splitting Dublin will not help majority of counties. There is plenty of counties who would see making super8s as a major achievement. A 2nd Dublin side would affect many counties chances of making a super8 stage and Dublin being split will not save the inter county game or help all counties.

Have you any proof to back up this assertion? Id have serious reservations about it personally. Kids in these rural schools might not get the chance to play at all because they may not be able to field teams or have very poor facilities. Whereas there will be no child in dublin who wishes to play gaa, not having the opportunity to do so. Some might not want to play, but then some wont want to play everywhere. There will be more in dublin simply because there are more people, but that is simply mathematical logic rather than anything else.
This thing about kids having more sports in the capital is quite spuriousto he honest about it. In any other walk of life, the idea that the lad down in ballygobackward with absolutely minimal facilities is somehow better equipped to play the game than guys with coaches and facilities coming out their ears, would frankly never be given consideration.

Splitting Dublin helps every single county, wirhout exception, by virtue of the fact that it gives them a fairer chance.
The fact that you accept that a second dublin team would make the super 8s, highlights how warranted the split is. Truth be told, they could go much further than the super 8s.

gaffer91 wrote: »

Registered players have been detailed already on this thread. Feel free to use the search function yourself, I'm not going to get them for you.

Are you seriously trying to pretend that the playing population and/ or population growth in Dublin will justify the absurd funding? Or to put it another way, you're saying the population growth will result in something approaching 13 times the population of Cork in Dublin in the short to medium term?

When you say "very rural county Cork", you realise the third biggest city on the island, second biggest in the Republic is in the county? Which is forecasting substantial population growth.

You absolutely can put GD funds and sponsorship together. Money is money. All sponsorship should be pooled together for everyone to benefit anyway.

Dublin deserve a lot of the funding they get in development funding when you look at the number of people there.
I'm talking about rural cork as representative of many areas of country as the GAA is very much first sport for majority of people and kids. That isnt really the same in a city with a much wider range of activities on offer.
Should difference be as much as it is no but solution isnt splitting Dublin. What happens if the two dublin sides were to be very successful in comparison to all other counties I assume you would then want them split again. You cant compare Dublin to many other counties who really only ever aspire of a provincial title success every so often. And splitting Dublin makes that potential provincial success so much harder for a lot of leinster counties.
Sponsorship cannot be pooled. All counties get shares of the competition sponsorship but each is entitled to their own sponsorship as well. Like Barcelona real Madrid dont share their sponsorship deals but do share in the la liga sponsorship deals.

It will help everyone. Not splitting Dublin will result in the All-Ireland competition dying a death the same way the Leinster championship has.

it doesnt help everyone as splitting Dublin makes many leinster counties chances of making latter stages of championship harder. It also affects qualifiers more. It doesnt help dubs either as there will be no real affiliation to the sides. Everything in GAA is about parish and county not a regional part of a county

Hawkeye9212

Just transfer land into other counties rather than splitting the county in two. Split DL-Rathdown and South Dublin between Kildare and Wicklow. It might actually give these counties a chance to win an All-Ireland.

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

what is playing population? Potential of growth far larger in Dublin in capital with far more who'll not have experience playing gaa compared to the very rural county cork. .
Sponsorship is higher in Dublin bit that doesn't mean and cannot mean that development funding should have to be lower. You cant put the two together.

.

Registered players have been detailed already on this thread. Feel free to use the search function yourself, I'm not going to get them for you.

Are you seriously trying to pretend that the playing population and/ or population growth in Dublin will justify the absurd funding? Or to put it another way, you're saying the population growth will result in something approaching 13 times the population of Cork in Dublin in the short to medium term?

When you say "very rural county Cork", you realise the third biggest city on the island, second biggest in the Republic is in the county? Which is forecasting substantial population growth.

You absolutely can put GD funds and sponsorship together. Money is money. All sponsorship should be pooled together for everyone to benefit anyway.

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

splitting Dublin will not help majority of counties. There is plenty of counties who would see making super8s as a major achievement. A 2nd Dublin side would affect many counties chances of making a super8 stage and Dublin being split will not save the inter county game or help all counties.

It will help everyone. Not splitting Dublin will result in the All-Ireland competition dying a death the same way the Leinster championship has.

RedDevil55

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

what is playing population? Potential of growth far larger in Dublin in capital with far more who'll not have experience playing gaa compared to the very rural county cork. .
Sponsorship is higher in Dublin bit that doesn't mean and cannot mean that development funding should have to be lower. You cant put the two together.

So the kids in Dublin are worth more as they have no experience of GAA? Where do kids in other counties get their experience?!

Just to be clear, are you standing over the current split of games development funding?

Dublin have 2.5 times the population of Cork but get 13 times the funds.
Dublin have 10 times the population of Mayo and Kerry but get around 25 times the funds.

gaffer91 wrote: »

Dublin's development funding is disproportionate to their population and their registered players. Why are you wilfully ignoring this fact? This is ignoring the sponsorship and other money too.

If you were to argue that funding should be based on population/ players, you should in fact be arguing for a significant reduction on the current expenditure on Dublin. But instead you try to defend the status quo.

So blindly repeating "Dublin have a bigger population so they should get more funding" is laughable when it has been repeatedly spelled out that even accounting for this population they are overfunded.

Dublin got €18 million from 2007-18 in GD funds. Cork got €1.4 million. How does this fit with your population argument? Dublin are two and a half times the population of Cork but got almost 13 times the funding. Again, this ignores the sponsorship money too.

The population argument is actually an argument for a split, not more funding anyway.

what is playing population? Potential of growth far larger in Dublin in capital with far more who'll not have experience playing gaa compared to the very rural county cork. .
Sponsorship is higher in Dublin bit that doesn't mean and cannot mean that development funding should have to be lower. You cant put the two together.

gaffer91 wrote: »

You dispelled absolutely nothing. You tried to draw an absurd false equivalence between Dublin and Kerry and it was such a poor argument that it was laughed at and promptly and correctly dismissed.

Dublin are uniquely advantaged compared to every other county. The scale and combination of advantages they have, including funding, population, home pitch and others, mean that they alone should be split to save the inter- county game and help all counties.

splitting Dublin will not help majority of counties. There is plenty of counties who would see making super8s as a major achievement. A 2nd Dublin side would affect many counties chances of making a super8 stage and Dublin being split will not save the inter county game or help all counties.

tritium wrote: »

Yeah... exemplary...I think we dispelled that myth about Kerry in the first thirty or so pagesof the thread: administrative doping. Financial doping, back handers from corporate donors. I’m not sure it’s a model I’d be calling out as”exemplary “ tbh, though recent history certainly shows us they’re not the only team with shadowy corporate sponsors who pop out of the woodwork occasionally. I’m sure you’ll tell us it’s just fundraising though

You dispelled absolutely nothing. You tried to draw an absurd false equivalence between Dublin and Kerry and it was such a poor argument that it was laughed at and promptly and correctly dismissed.

Dublin are uniquely advantaged compared to every other county. The scale and combination of advantages they have, including funding, population, home pitch and others, mean that they alone should be split to save the inter- county game and help all counties.

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

they have population significantly greater than the rest. Development funding should be significantly higher as a result. Dublin shouldn't be split because of their size. Funding to help other counties improve should be found but Dublin are far from being subsidised.

Dublin's development funding is disproportionate to their population and their registered players. Why are you wilfully ignoring this fact? This is ignoring the sponsorship and other money too.

If you were to argue that funding should be based on population/ players, you should in fact be arguing for a significant reduction on the current expenditure on Dublin. But instead you try to defend the status quo.

So blindly repeating "Dublin have a bigger population so they should get more funding" is laughable when it has been repeatedly spelled out that even accounting for this population they are overfunded.

Dublin got €18 million from 2007-18 in GD funds. Cork got €1.4 million. How does this fit with your population argument? Dublin are two and a half times the population of Cork but got almost 13 times the funding. Again, this ignores the sponsorship money too.

The population argument is actually an argument for a split, not more funding anyway.

Bonniedog

beggars_bush wrote: »

Yes. Let's stick to geographical divisions made by the Normans and Tudors

Which in turn were based on older Gaelic territories.

By the way, the notion that Dublin have a conveyor belt of exceptional players is not being evidenced at underage.

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

But it isnt their share.
Hence the use of the word - disproportionate. If it was their share it would be proportionate. This is the opposite of that - disproportionate.

Also, if you think that dublin are simply getting back the money they generate for the gaa, you are wrong there too. Id you analyse the attendance figures you see that they are in fact getting sizeably more of a percentage than that they generate, which means that, basically the rest of the gaa world is footing the bill for the financial doping of a competitor. That is a ludicrous situation

they have population significantly greater than the rest. Development funding should be significantly higher as a result. Dublin shouldn't be split because of their size. Funding to help other counties improve should be found but Dublin are far from being subsidised.

Dots1982 wrote: »

We’re entering into the decade where Intercounty Gaelic Football is on trial and has to prove that it’s worth the interest of masses.

its far from on trial and it is far from what Dublin are doing that is causing issues in the inter county set up nationwide.

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

No kerry at no point in history should have been split. They are in fact the example that should be rolled out across every organisation. What they have achieved from the numbers they have is exemplary. If some9ne cannot understand the differences between the resources at play there, then this discussion may be going over their heads

they're not though. They at moment have significant assistance from major sponsors and everything else they get to aid them...

tritium

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

No kerry at no point in history should have been split. They are in fact the example that should be rolled out across every organisation. What they have achieved from the numbers they have is exemplary. If some9ne cannot understand the differences between the resources at play there, then this discussion may be going over their heads

Yeah... exemplary...I think we dispelled that myth about Kerry in the first thirty or so pagesof the thread: administrative doping. Financial doping, back handers from corporate donors. I’m not sure it’s a model I’d be calling out as”exemplary “ tbh, though recent history certainly shows us they’re not the only team with shadowy corporate sponsors who pop out of the woodwork occasionally. I’m sure you’ll tell us it’s just fundraising though

beggars_bush

mcgragger wrote: »

Splitting Dublin is in effect throwing Dublin out of the All Ireland and setting up 2 or more part county teams.
Its the end of the AI as we know it.

Kick Dublin out because they are now winning is the argument I hear. Its BS.

Yes. Let's stick to geographical divisions made by the Normans and Tudors

Dots1982

We’re entering into the decade where Intercounty Gaelic Football is on trial and has to prove that it’s worth the interest of masses.

mcgragger

Splitting Dublin is in effect throwing Dublin out of the All Ireland and setting up 2 or more part county teams.
Its the end of the AI as we know it.

Kick Dublin out because they are now winning is the argument I hear. Its BS.

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

so a lot of counties get more than their share while quite a few as a result got lot less. If it was professional sport with salary and spending cap then yes but it isnt.
And quit putting words in my mouth and everyone else to try get things to suit your twisted agenda against Dublin.

But it isnt their share.
Hence the use of the word - disproportionate. If it was their share it would be proportionate. This is the opposite of that - disproportionate.

Also, if you think that dublin are simply getting back the money they generate for the gaa, you are wrong there too. Id you analyse the attendance figures you see that they are in fact getting sizeably more of a percentage than that they generate, which means that, basically the rest of the gaa world is footing the bill for the financial doping of a competitor. That is a ludicrous situation

tritium wrote: »

Surely by that argument Kerry should have been split before Darby scored his famous goal. Looking at the record book post that we have exactly the apocalyptic scenario you describe except the four horsemen were wearing green and gold rather than blue (oh and the world didn’t end)

No kerry at no point in history should have been split. They are in fact the example that should be rolled out across every organisation. What they have achieved from the numbers they have is exemplary. If some9ne cannot understand the differences between the resources at play there, then this discussion may be going over their heads

tritium wrote: »

Pragmatic use of resources- I wonder do the Leinster counties who repeatedly decide to play in Croker have a similar view maybe?

One dublin team using croker all the time is a scandal and a huge advantage to dublin but two dublin teams using it is just hunky dory? Jesus we really are in the twilight zone at this stage. The whole anti dub thing is a parody of itself at this point

Yes actually that is exactly what they see it as Id imagine. Why else would they do it?

Re it being hunky dory, well it isnt, but, again, being pragmatic about it, if one dublin team can use it then the other team could use it in the same fashion. By all means, go and build 2 new stadia if this is what you feel needs to be done. I dont think it would be an immediate requirment personally, but if you do, by all means get out and get fundraising

tritium

gaffer91 wrote: »

Hi Tritium- coming back as requested. Dublin look like getting 10 in a row. They've won 6 of the last 7 All-Irelands, have an endless conveyor belt of excellent new players to replace the old guard and have massive population, funding and home pitch advantages.

So they’re right now about at the level your own counties best team has achieved

Sky didn’t fall in then,not about to fall in now

gaffer91 wrote: »

I don't accept it was an insult. You do indeed keep posting the same tripe over and over, no matter how many times it has been rebutted.

So your argument now seems to have moved from "Dublin get more, but they have a bigger population so it's fair" to "Dublin get much more but it doesn't matter". That's an interesting transition.

There's no reason sponsorship money, from all counties, couldn't be centrally pooled and shared amongst all counties.

so a lot of counties get more than their share while quite a few as a result got lot less. If it was professional sport with salary and spending cap then yes but it isnt.
And quit putting words in my mouth and everyone else to try get things to suit your twisted agenda against Dublin.

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

drop the insults.
Dublin do get more in sponsorship. They would anyway. Sponsors look for exposure and a successful side and side based in biggest population base will always get more in sponsorship than the rest
Look in the mirror about regurgitating garbage as all you seem to post about is alleged bias towards Dublin about funding

I don't accept it was an insult. You do indeed keep posting the same tripe over and over, no matter how many times it has been rebutted.

So your argument now seems to have moved from "Dublin get more, but they have a bigger population so it's fair" to "Dublin get much more but it doesn't matter". That's an interesting transition.

There's no reason sponsorship money, from all counties, couldn't be centrally pooled and shared amongst all counties.

@The Lost Sheep here's a very simple puzzle to help you with this.

County A has 100 people and 10 GAA players.
County B has 200 people and 20 GAA players.

Do you think it would be fair to give County B twice the amount of funding as County A, or 30 times as much? Because your current argument is that both options are equally fair

gaffer91 wrote: »

You clearly have difficulty understanding several points so I will just do one at a time to try and help you understand.

The funding Dublin gets, both from the GAA and from their sponsors, and from the government, is disproportionate compared to other counties even when their population and/or registered playing numbers are factored in. This means that Dublin are getting substantially more per registered player/ per head of population than every other county. Can you understand this simple information?

You're just regurgitating the same garbage over and over- try to actually tackle the points people raise.

drop the insults.
Dublin do get more in sponsorship. They would anyway. Sponsors look for exposure and a successful side and side based in biggest population base will always get more in sponsorship than the rest
Look in the mirror about regurgitating garbage as all you seem to post about is alleged bias towards Dublin about funding