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ESB eCars pricing introduction

ELM327

System Upgrade

Dear EV Drivers,

To enable us to provide you with some enhanced functionality and a new app, we will be performing a system upgrade this coming Wednesday morning, October 2nd,

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ei9go

ELM327 wrote: »

1 hour is too long
An R zoe should not be using a fast AC

Of course it should if needed. It's a three phase AC only car

slave1

Think ELM meant it can get the same charge off a slow charger so why take a rapid out of action for others

unkel

kanuseeme wrote: »

That is 2 people who got 13 kWh in a really long time, any one else experience such slow charge rates?

I always get 50kW on the ESB 50kW chargers. No matter how warm or cold the weather and no matter how warm or cold the car. 2017 Ioniq.

Had to fast charge today in Lucan. Thought that with paying for charging things would be quiet, how wrong I was...

Zoe was charging on AC. Tesla X was just plugging in. He let me plug in after a few minutes as he had some work to do and wanted to eat something and I didnt need much. A few minutes into my charge a L40 plugged in the CHAdeMO and immediately my charge stopped :eek: your man hadn't even used his card yet. Explained what happens, nice lad we chatted until I was finished. In the meantime a L24 stopped and asked how many were in the queue and at the same time a Tesla S drove past. So 5 cars wanting to charge at the same time. While only one can (+ the Zoe)

kanuseeme

Crazy.

McGiver

zg3409 wrote:

Easygo has an overstay fee too. There is an additional overstay fee of 35c PER MINUTE after 60 minutes

That's what I say!

Per kWh & per min combo pricing. Per min kicks in after X min, what the X should be is up to for discussion.

Mancomb Seepgood

slave1 wrote: »

Think ELM meant it can get the same charge off a slow charger so why take a rapid out of action for others

Two reasons: unavailability of a slow charger and the convenient siting of fast chargers on or near motorways.

I can't really see how a Zoe is taking a rapid out of action for anyone else: the CCS/Chademo connector is still available for use.

ELM327

ei9go wrote: »

Of course it should if needed. It's a three phase AC only car

Yes but it's a fast AC 43 post, not a standard AC 22 post.
Feel free to use it, but you'll be charged overstay after 45 minutes and that's fair enough

Mancomb Seepgood wrote: »

Two reasons: unavailability of a slow charger and the convenient siting of fast chargers on or near motorways.

I can't really see how a Zoe is taking a rapid out of action for anyone else: the CCS/Chademo connector is still available for use.

as above

innrain

California’s Office of Administrative Law approved amendments to its Electric Vehicle Fueling Systems Specifications. Effective January 1, 2020, these new rules ban operators of electric vehicle charging stations from billing by the minute.

https://ww.electrek.co/2019/12/24/california-bans-per-minute-billing-tesla-superchargers-will-need-displays/

"The Department clarifies that time is not an acceptable unit of measure for dispensing and billing electricity as motor vehicle fuel."

kennethsmyth

innrain wrote: »

California’s Office of Administrative Law approved amendments to its Electric Vehicle Fueling Systems Specifications. Effective January 1, 2020, these new rules ban operators of electric vehicle charging stations from billing by the minute.

https://ww.electrek.co/2019/12/24/california-bans-per-minute-billing-tesla-superchargers-will-need-displays/

"The Department clarifies that time is not an acceptable unit of measure for dispensing and billing electricity as motor vehicle fuel."

Yeah saw that, Cali is taking the line that charging should be by usage and should not be considered a tight resource, if it is a tight resource that should be changed and the consumer should not suffer.

liamog

I heard a discussion with the guy who introduced the measure. It came out of the California Weights and Measures board.

The reason he used was that the charger operator shouldn't be allowed to charge by time, when the charger operator can control the charging time.

As example, let's say you need to add 25kWh to complete your journey and the operator charged 25c/min. The charger could supply 50kW and you'd be done in 30 mins for €7.50. Whereas they could supply 25kW and you'd be done in 60 mins for €15.

fricatus

liamog wrote: »

I heard a discussion with the guy who introduced the measure. It came out of the California Weights and Measures board.

The reason he used was that the charger operator shouldn't be allowed to charge by time, when the charger operator can control the charging time.

As example, let's say you need to add 25kWh to complete your journey and the operator charged 25c/min. The charger could supply 50kW and you'd be done in 30 mins for €7.50. Whereas they could supply 25kW and you'd be done in 60 mins for €15.

I'm sure the California Weights and Measures board understands weights and measures very well, but they don't show much of an understanding of EVs, batteries, charging curves, throttling, etc.

There was an article in Electrek that mentioned that "service providers are allowed to charge ancillary fees such as: a connection fee; waiting fee for staying connected after reaching full state of charge".

That's not going to help charger availability when many cars take as long to get from 80% to 100% as they do from say 20% to 80%. The E-Cars overstay fee would probably be illegal under this measure, which is ridiculous.

Maybe charger operators will get creative now, so when you plug in, you'll get two options: charge to 80% - price 25c/kWh or charge to car's full capacity - 50c/kWh. Something will need to be done to stop hogging.

Northumberland

The easiest thing that could stop hogging of ESB fast chargers would be to ensure that there was sufficient space around each charger for 3 or 4 cars to be able to park within reach of the charger socket. The ESB CHAdeMO chargers I have used automatically unlock connection to car when charging ends, allowing anyone to pull out the plug and plug in to a different vehicle, but very rarely is their space to park another vehicle close enough.

ELM327

Northumberland wrote: »

The easiest thing that could stop hogging of ESB fast chargers would be to ensure that there was sufficient space around each charger for 3 or 4 cars to be able to park within reach of the charger socket. The ESB CHAdeMO chargers I have used automatically unlock connection to car when charging ends, allowing anyone to pull out the plug and plug in to a different vehicle, but very rarely is their space to park another vehicle close enough.

This is unique to Chademo though, Type2 AC and most CCS connections (as it depends on the car) will lock to the car even when the session ends.

What stops hogging is fines (like the overstay fee) and more chargers

I've done a lot of km over christmas and used a lot of fast chargers, supercharger, Ionity, ecars, easygo. The only place I had to queue was easygo because the charger was free (supermacs kinnegad)

The overstay fee is working IMO

Northumberland

Yes, I thought it was unique to CHAdeMO (which I use). You say you did a lot of charging over Christmas. I wonder if your travels took you to Blanchardstown Centre?, the queues there at this time for the single fast charge point (as well as the two 22kW AC) were chaotic, and made worse by the fact that there was nowhere to even wait close to the charger. Blanchardstown Centre (and Dundrum) should be an obvious place for a decent bank of fast chargers forpeople coming to the two largest malls in the country from far away, such as me from Cavan. There are few alternatives for me if Blanchardstown Centre is full with lines of waiting cars. Try my luck at the single CHAdeMO at the airport?, small chance, hang out at Curcke K, Glasbevin for 40 mins?, maybe.

kennethsmyth

Ok as someone mentioned before, esb has a serious issue with dc charging. It was mentioned that if someone is on ccs and a chademo is plugged in it cuts off the ccs. I was at enfield today and the reverse occurred. I was on chademo about to return to car when I got a message from the car that charging had stopped. I got out to the car to find that a UK I pace had plugged in the ccs and the chademo had stopped.

Now two things 1. This shouldn’t happen and the esb need to fix this otherwise people will cause havoc. ( the ccs guy has trouble getting the ccs to connect afterwards).

2. I asked the guy did he have the car long and he said about 12 months! You should really know by then that only one dc at a time can charge!

markpb

kennethsmyth wrote: »

You should really know by then that only one dc at a time can charge!

There are probably a cohort of EV owners who only ever charge at home or at destination chargers and aren’t familiar with FCPs or the odd way they operate.

liamog

Probably a lot of truth in that last comment. The Christmas break probably has a lot more people on the road who aren't used to navigating the public charging landscape.

ELM327

This happened me in reverse at Coynes cross the other day.
I was on CCS for ~25 mins and in the services with herself and the kids having breakfast. Next thing I know there's a notification on the app that charging was interrupted. I rushed out to the charger and found two old men plugging in the chademo and starting a charge, after mine was nefariously ended. I still needed another 20 minutes.

Worst part was that this seemed to corrupt the unit as my cable was locked in the car and I couldnt start another session, nor remove the cable. I called ecars who remotely reset the unit and I got to finish my charge. This is nonsense, what sort of software are they using!!

It's either that I was "emergency stopped" or that they plugged the chademo plug in without scanning the card, knowing that this may end my charge. (of course, if you scan your card when CCS is in use, you wont see chademo as an option)

We're going to avoid ecars until this is not a risk anymore.

ELM327

Northumberland wrote: »

Yes, I thought it was unique to CHAdeMO (which I use). You say you did a lot of charging over Christmas. I wonder if your travels took you to Blanchardstown Centre?, the queues there at this time for the single fast charge point (as well as the two 22kW AC) were chaotic, and made worse by the fact that there was nowhere to even wait close to the charger. Blanchardstown Centre (and Dundrum) should be an obvious place for a decent bank of fast chargers forpeople coming to the two largest malls in the country from far away, such as me from Cavan. There are few alternatives for me if Blanchardstown Centre is full with lines of waiting cars. Try my luck at the single CHAdeMO at the airport?, small chance, hang out at Curcke K, Glasbevin for 40 mins?, maybe.

No, I avoid that place like the plague. Ridiculous place for a fast charger. Would be better served by a bank of 20kW DC chargers. Move the fast charger to a trunk route

unkel

ELM327 wrote: »

This happened me in reverse at Coynes cross the other day.
I was on CCS for ~25 mins and in the services with herself and the kids having breakfast. Next thing I know there's a notification on the app that charging was interrupted. I rushed out to the charger and found two old men plugging in the chademo and starting a charge

ESB must have been aware of this for years. Yet they can't fix it and neither can the Portugese manufacturer of the EFACEC chargers. Even if they flew in Portugese engineers, like they did to try and fix their Lucan charger. I was talking to them. They failed BTW, the charger was out for months last year

If you must use CCS on the ESB chargers, stay with the car and be very vigilant of anybody going near the CHAdeMO. Last time I got kicked out was when the lad only plugged in the CHAdeMO cable into his Leaf, he hadn't even taken his ESB card out of his pocket yet :eek:

ELM327

unkel wrote: »

ESB must have been aware of this for years. Yet they can't fix it and neither can the Portugese manufacturer of the EFACEC chargers. Even if they flew in Portugese engineers, like they did to try and fix their Lucan charger. I was talking to them. They failed BTW, the charger was out for months last year

If you must use CCS on the ESB chargers, stay with the car and be very vigilant of anybody going near the CHAdeMO. Last time I got kicked out was when the lad only plugged in the CHAdeMO cable into his Leaf, he hadn't even taken his ESB card out of his pocket yet :eek:

I gave them a right rollicking as it appeared from the circumstances that they had emergency stopped me but giving the benefit of the doubt perhaps it was just that they plugged in before swiping?

I think in future if I must use the esb chargers I will use chademo! #first_world_problems

Black_Knight

ELM327 wrote: »

I think in future if I must use the esb chargers I will use chademo! #first_world_problems

Might start taking the CHAdeMO plug off its holder while i'm charging in future. Hang it on the CCS cable going to my car or something. Maybe a little note to hang on the CHAdeMO cable while using CCS that says "please do not use while other cable is charging. Only 1 can be used at a time".

graememk

Black_Knight wrote: »

Might start taking the CHAdeMO plug off its holder while i'm charging in future. Hang it on the CCS cable going to my car or something. Maybe a little note to hang on the CHAdeMO cable while using CCS that says "please do not use while other cable is charging. Only 1 can be used at a time".

Get a pack of heavy cable ties and a pair of snips, keep them in the car, tie them together when charging and put them back when done.

Black_Knight

graememk wrote: »

Get a pack of heavy cable ties and a pair of snips, keep them in the car, tie them together when charging and put them back when done.

Not the worst idea.

If what unkel says is true, that's a right pain. It would be handy to be able to pull in, see a car charging, pop the other cable into your car and walk away. Then once the other car stops charging, you can remote start the charger via the app.

[Deleted User]

ELM327 wrote: »

This happened me in reverse at Coynes cross the other day.
I was on CCS for ~25 mins and in the services with herself and the kids having breakfast. Next thing I know there's a notification on the app that charging was interrupted. I rushed out to the charger and found two old men plugging in the chademo and starting a charge, after mine was nefariously ended. I still needed another 20 minutes.

Worst part was that this seemed to corrupt the unit as my cable was locked in the car and I couldnt start another session, nor remove the cable. I called ecars who remotely reset the unit and I got to finish my charge. This is nonsense, what sort of software are they using!!

It's either that I was "emergency stopped" or that they plugged the chademo plug in without scanning the card, knowing that this may end my charge. (of course, if you scan your card when CCS is in use, you wont see chademo as an option)

We're going to avoid ecars until this is not a risk anymore.

REX !

It happened me on a few occasions. Terribly irritating because I too could not restart charging and on one occasion the other driver refused to accept they were in the wrong but I expect people are not aware and of course there are those who won't care and know all to well what they're doing.

The other driver was getting nasty and I had my 2 sons in the car so best thing was to leave. My charge was ended at around 50% too so it was lucky I had the Rex.

McGiver

ELM327 wrote:

No, I avoid that place like the plague. Ridiculous place for a fast charger. Would be better served by a bank of 20kW DC chargers. Move the fast charger to a trunk route

Exactly. DC chargers should be on the motorways, not in towns.

liamog

McGiver wrote: »

Exactly. DC chargers should be on the motorways, not in towns.

We've been around in circles on that one. 50kW chargers do not belong on motorways!

unkel

Banks of slow chargers (AC) should be at places where people stop for the day or overnight like at home or at work, at commuter train stations and at airports

Banks of 50kW DC chargers should be at places where people stop for at least a little while, like half an hour / an hour, like big supermarkets / shopping centres, city centres, etc.

Banks of super fast DC chargers (>300kW) should be at places where people stop for as little time as possible and where the main reason for stopping is that a charge is needed: motorway service stations

Black_Knight

Wish the new app/site had a scale for the peak times graph, to give some sort of idea around the likelyhood of a charger being in use. If you look at the response message from the call to "getStationPeakTimeData" there's a numeric value. Blanch's peak is around 788 (whatever that means), while Finglas peak is around 159. No idea what that means, but if 1000 meant it was in use on average 100% of the time in that hour, then 788 might mean something to me. Peak usage times are always going to look similar, but peak usage for 1 charger might be manic, while another could be a 30 minutes of use in an hour.

McGiver

liamog wrote:

We've been around in circles on that one. 50kW chargers do not belong on motorways!

No, why? 95% of EVs on the road here can take 50kW so?