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Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

[Deleted User]

Continued from here
https://touch.boards.ie/thread/2057953711/251
All Ireland Senior XV related talk here.

MOD: Bear in mind this thread is starting during the World Cup window and the zero tolerance policy is in force. Trolling will be rewarded with an instant ban. For the duration of the tournament any mention of Zebo in this thread will not be permitted, it is just dragging current Ireland squad talk off topic.

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Dubinusa

I think POM will probably be gone from international duty in 4years. He may be done sooner... Farrell may opt for something else. Same thing with Sexton, how long more will he be our 10?
Pointless,imo of making either one Captain. I think it should go to a younger player, Henderson? Ryan?
It's ok that VanGrann is pushing him. But, who knows if he even starts this 6nations.

[Deleted User]

leakyboots wrote: »

I get the feeling there is nothing POM could do to satisfy some people on these here boards

Actually play well for Ireland?

aloooof

molloyjh wrote: »

To be fair, his form this calendar year has been pretty poor. I was happy to go with the POFM thing this time last year when he'd been awesome in 2018, but it just hasn't happened for him in 2019. We need to be able to call out guys who are out of form regardless of province. For example, Furlong has been a pale shadow of his former self for most of the year too leading to Porter rightfully starting last week for Leinster.

But Furlong hasn’t gotten anywhere near the hammering that POM has received, for example.

I agree POM has had a poor year. But I don’t think it’s nearly as bad as has been made out by some. I actually thought he was one of our better plays at the WC for example (which admittedly isn’t saying much).

[Deleted User]

aloooof wrote: »

But Furlong hasn’t gotten anywhere near the hammering that POM has received, for example.

Furlong has possibly dropped behind Porter in the pecking order and there hasn't been much disagreement with that. I would consider that significant considering he was touted as World Number 1 just a season ago.

aloooof

Deleted User wrote: »

Furlong has possibly dropped behind Porter in the pecking order and there hasn't been much disagreement with that. I would consider that significant considering he was touted as World Number 1 just a season ago.

That's down to selection (which is ultimately all that matters). My point was more towards the criticism they receive on here.

Even if you think POM's form has dropped more than Furlong's, the criticism hasn't been anywhere near proportional, imo.

Niallof9

leakyboots wrote: »

He's been in good form for Munster since his return from the RWC

Has he though? Alot of Munster fans don't seem to think so. Stats wise he is miles between Ruddock. In Rugby pass' rating system which is accurate enough according to analysts i know he is around 73 percent while Ruddock is 91.

Furlong has also dropped, but for him its that he set such a high bar. His carrying game is much more quiet. Porter is fresher now and his carrying game will be immense for a few seasons and then the same thing will happen a fresher Milne or somebody will look fresher. Propping is so tough. It happened with Healy and then when he got his carrying game back a little McGrath, a non carrier, was dropped. We mainly want our props to be good at the basics and then anything else is a bonus.

You can't have a 6 who doesn't tackle or carry. Furlong is World Class, POM is not apart from maybe his lineout ability. Having a few big moments every 4 or 5 games isn't enough. Particularly when you have options around the position. Its completely different to how Best was captain due to a lack of options.

People don't have a go at him for no reason. If he performed consistently it wouldn't be an issue. He can be a likeable player, he's clearly a leader. He wear's his heart on his sleeve. The out of the blue captaincy for the Lions shows its not just paper talk. But the quick dropping at half time, never to lion out again shows that leadership only gets you so far. We need Farrell to be as ruthless as Gatland, a mentor of his.

The top two inches has got him very far, but he just doesn't have the natural talent of many of his peers. That makes him droppable imo. Its harsh, but fair. And again stats back all this up. The intangible stuff like is he the heartbeat of the squad, the lineout innovator, the best trainer, etc etc...well we'll never know. If he is yeah then sometimes that matters.

irishbucsfan

Niallof9 wrote: »

In Rugby pass' rating system which is accurate enough according to analysts i know

:pac::pac::pac:

Niallof9

irishbucsfan wrote: »

:pac::pac::pac:

??

I only sent it to one yesterday. He had no issue with it whatsoever. He didn't even know that it was rugby pass, he himself mentioned rugby pass and how Ryan was number one. So stop with your arrogant guffawing.

I'm the one laughing at your ignorance. Yeah it doesn't take some stats into consideration, like certain ruck stats (where POM can be a good cleaner, but not as good as people make out if u player watch, being a pillar man in an offensive ruck is old style ruck inspecting/its easy)and obviously we had Ringrose talk about it yesterday regarding tackle stats. But u can see with your eyes that the Ryan stats add up, particularly compared to POM. If you want to pretend that it isn't so, well thats your choice.

Are you willing to pay for some of the other databases? I'm not. Its the best free one available to punters.

Sure i seem to remember you were one of the lads who often had that laughable suggestion that form doesn't matter? or am i mistaken. which i mean, would feed into your beliefs around stats.

POM on his day can be very very good - https://www.sportsjoe.ie/rugby/analysis-exactly-peter-omahony-ireland-every-time-143185

He was great last year at times, the all blacks. He is a big game player when the team is humming. But i don't think thats enough now. He's not the guy to get the motor running.

I think now that Healy is winding down, SOB gone (as he was for ages anyway, but it was still a sort of crutch), Furlong tired, Stander refusing to adapt his game,...we'll realise we don't have enough good, big carriers.

This is the main reason he can't be captain, which would make him undroppable.

irishbucsfan

Niallof9 wrote: »

??

I only sent it to one yesterday. He had no issue with it whatsoever.

This is either a complete lie on your part, or the person isn't a professional analyst. Or maybe he was just trying to get out of the conversation!

Have a look at how it measures blindsides. It's an absolute joke measurement put together as pure fluff.

It's like something a college student would put together, and a college student would only put together something so basic for what I assume is the same reason Rugby Pass do, they don't have the resources or expertise to measure anything more effectively, so they're reduced to using basic stats they can scrape together for free or for basic pricing from a stats provider

Niallof9

irishbucsfan wrote: »

This is either a complete lie on your part, or the person isn't a professional analyst. Or maybe he was just trying to get out of the conversation!

Have a look at how it measures blindsides. It's an absolute joke measurement put together as pure fluff.

It's like something a college student would put together, and a college student would only put together something so basic for what I assume is the same reason Rugby Pass do, they don't have the resources or expertise to measure anything more effectively, so they're reduced to using basic stats they can scrape together for free or for basic pricing from a stats provider

You know you can pay for the databases yeah? The provinces pay for tons of other sets? Extra cameras, post cameras, etc. I'm pretty certain these lads would do that. As they tweak it they will improve it. Last year or whenever it launched, it was nuts. You're probably one of those people who go on about wikipedia's accuracy not knowing how it works, nor that its used by Google and universities for accuracy. Stats lie i get that. The index thing, yeah is probably a load of bollocks in that its measuring different players doing different things. I get all that, but they are only one part of the picture. But in pure numbers which are accurate as i cross referenced them, James Ryan has made 199 carries for all appearances. Poms number in similar minutes...87. JR made a carry last weekend where he was smashed but he got up and just kept going, it was Wally like. Now you could argue its a Joe thing, a second row thing in modern rugby as the ball is played close to the ruck more but most of the carries for Ryan came with Leinster, and you would expect POM as a key man for Munster to have more no matter what systems. And if its the idea that as a 6 he's further from the ball well then what is POM doing exactly? If he's not tackling which again he's not huge in those numbers. If we can get an accurate number for his clear outs we'd be laughing.

Calling me a liar? I'll take anything you ever say with a pinch of salt. The form thing was a belter. Form doesn't matter...lol

I'm not saying that they are the most accurate. Some of it is nuts when taken out of context. But in context ...in basic rugby things JR is blowing POM out of the water. Do u deny that?

They are a fair indicator of what James Ryan does. And what POM doesn't do. In terms of a captain leading from the front.

And what do you want your blindsides to do? Traditionally a carrying and tackling role. POM does jackle, he's become quite good at it. And its something he should have done straight off the bat instead of dicking around at 6 or 8. Just gone straight to being a hard nosed 7.

In saying this, all of this is mostly around the captaincy issue. POM can't become an undroppable due to getting the cpataincy. Is he good enough to start on any given day, of course. But an undroppable? No he's not particularly with whats coming down the line and our issues around carrying and how we want to play the game. Soon enough Deegan, Doris, O'Sullivan will be ready to blow POM out of the water. Lets hope we're not heading into a 2023 WC with a 34 year old POM captain.

aloooof

Niallof9 wrote: »

...Stander refusing to adapt his game

I'm not going to try unpack the rest of your long posts, but where are you getting this idea from? It's not like we've been playing an expansive game while he's still decided to truck it up. It seems like he's very much following instructions.

As an example of him being able to adapt his game under Larkham, he had 2 offloads against Racing.

Niallof9

aloooof wrote: »

I'm not going to try unpack the rest of your long posts, but where are you getting this idea from? It's not like we've been playing an expansive game while he's still decided to truck it up. It seems like he's very much following instructions.

As an example of him being able to adapt his game under Larkham, he had 2 offloads against Racing.

Good for you. Is that really a necessary thing to say, just say what you're going to say.

Yeah he did have that super try was it against Italy? he can do it. But ok if we're giving carte blanche passes to the lads because of the system, that so many on here defended, then fair enough. Its a complete reboot.

He's our main carrier. I just mean we need a bit of footwork. Yeah he can definitely do it.

All i'm saying is thats what POM doesn't give us. Put Stander in at 6 and bring in a carrying 8. VDF does your jackling and huge workrate as a 7. We lose POM's lineout ability but where did it really get us in the end.

Shefwedfan

aloooof wrote: »

But Furlong hasn’t gotten anywhere near the hammering that POM has received, for example.

I agree POM has had a poor year. But I don’t think it’s nearly as bad as has been made out by some. I actually thought he was one of our better plays at the WC for example (which admittedly isn’t saying much).

Why does it always come down to finger pointing?

Furlong played well up till World Cup. I personally felt he suffered from the humidity but his poor form has continued and I think you will see on the Leinster thread a few people calling for Porter to start.....at this moment Porter should start in 6 nations

Some fans seem to have a blocker on POM, I do realize he is a favorite for Munster fans but really Murray is getting loads of questions while the same is not been asked of POM.

It not just in fans but in the media, I actually seen one exMunster player saying he was MoM for the Japan game??

Niallof9

Yeah I'd be happy to give Porter a start. I think he's earned it. Furlong might need a break. We need to start rewarding form and performances. Its a no brainer

Former Former

irishbucsfan wrote: »

This is either a complete lie on your part, or the person isn't a professional analyst. Or maybe he was just trying to get out of the conversation!

Have a look at how it measures blindsides. It's an absolute joke measurement put together as pure fluff.

It's like something a college student would put together, and a college student would only put together something so basic for what I assume is the same reason Rugby Pass do, they don't have the resources or expertise to measure anything more effectively, so they're reduced to using basic stats they can scrape together for free or for basic pricing from a stats provider

Rugbypass only ever do anything for one reason : clicks.

If Rugbypass is your source of authority, you've lost the argument.

molloyjh

leakyboots wrote: »

He's been in good form for Munster since his return from the RWC

To be honest I've only seen him play once for Munster this season so cant really comment properly on that. I hope he does refind his form obviously. The more top class form players we can call on the better.

molloyjh

aloooof wrote: »

But Furlong hasn’t gotten anywhere near the hammering that POM has received, for example.

I agree POM has had a poor year. But I don’t think it’s nearly as bad as has been made out by some. I actually thought he was one of our better plays at the WC for example (which admittedly isn’t saying much).

Thats a fair point. I dont know why that is. Possobly provincial in some ways. But also possibly to do with their respective roles. Furlong still gets through some obvious work whereas POM less so. Plus as a senior member of the squad and one of the vice captains the expectation that he'll deliver will be higher too.

I also think high profile issues like the Wales game where he made 1 tackle in 80 mins tends to stick in peoples minds more. Those who know me know how I hate stats without context, but that's still a pretty incredible stat nonetheless. I can understand why it stands out to people and has them looking at POM closer than Furlong.

I'd also he curious to see how many people have just posted incessantly on the topic so that it exaggerates the issue. That's definitely been happening here at least!

Shefwedfan

molloyjh wrote: »

Thats a fair point. I dont know why that is. Possobly provincial in some ways. But also possibly to do with their respective roles. Furlong still gets through some obvious work whereas POM less so. Plus as a senior member of the squad and one of the vice captains the expectation that he'll deliver will be higher too.

I also think high profile issues like the Wales game where he made 1 tackle in 80 mins tends to stick in peoples minds more. Those who know me know how I hate stats without context, but that's still a pretty incredible stat nonetheless. I can understand why it stands out to people and has them looking at POM closer than Furlong.

I'd also he curious to see how many people have just posted incessantly on the topic so that it exaggerates the issue. That's definitely been happening here at least!

POM last good game was in November last year against NZ.

Furlong was playing well for Ireland in 6 nations. Also he was playing very well for Leinster up till summer break

His drop in form has happened since, so thats since September when start of WC. I think you will find prior to the Northampton game a few people on here called for him to be dropped and once the team was announced everyone agrees

You can't compare the both due to time scales.

If it is September next year, Furlong form is still suffering and he was still playing then you could compare.

I did say a few weeks back Furlong has been on the go non stop since he broke into Ireland/Leinster team. He probably needs a rest and with Porter now he could get that.

A better comparison is Murray and POM. Both players have seen a drop in form but POM gets nowhere near the bashing that Murray gets, thats from Munster fans as well.

Niallof9

Former Former wrote: »

Rugbypass only ever do anything for one reason : clicks.

If Rugbypass is your source of authority, you've lost the argument.

Ok yeah you're right James Ryan doesn't have about 110 more carries than POM. I've lost there yep. Anyway whatever, as i said the Ryan stats weren't disputed by a professional analyst i know (who has hundred of data sources) so thats good enough for me.

Lets just ignore all stats and live in the land of make believe

Its worked out so well for us here.

aloooof

molloyjh wrote: »

Thats a fair point. I dont know why that is. Possobly provincial in some ways. But also possibly to do with their respective roles. Furlong still gets through some obvious work whereas POM less so. Plus as a senior member of the squad and one of the vice captains the expectation that he'll deliver will be higher too.

I also think high profile issues like the Wales game where he made 1 tackle in 80 mins tends to stick in peoples minds more. Those who know me know how I hate stats without context, but that's still a pretty incredible stat nonetheless. I can understand why it stands out to people and has them looking at POM closer than Furlong.

I'd also he curious to see how many people have just posted incessantly on the topic so that it exaggerates the issue. That's definitely been happening here at least!

I'd agree with all of this tbh, particularly the last point. I think the volume of criticism then results in people defending him too far the other way (and the cycle continues).

Personally, I think he was far better in the RWC than he was during the 6 Nations (but I can still see the reasons why people don't want him in the starting 15, particularly as part of a back row with Stander and VdF).

aloooof

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Some fans seem to have a blocker on POM, I do realize he is a favorite for Munster fans but really Murray is getting loads of questions while the same is not been asked of POM.

Shefwedfan wrote: »

A better comparison is Murray and POM. Both players have seen a drop in form but POM gets nowhere near the bashing that Murray gets, thats from Munster fans as well.

This is not my impression at all, tbh.

Zzippy

Niallof9 wrote: »

Ok yeah you're right James Ryan doesn't have about 110 more carries than POM. I've lost there yep. Anyway whatever, as i said the Ryan stats weren't disputed by a professional analyst i know (who has hundred of data sources) so thats good enough for me.

Lets just ignore all stats and live in the land of make believe

Its worked out so well for us here.

I think it's patently obvious that no one here believes you discussed those stats with a professional analyst. But you keep digging that hole!

Niallof9

Zzippy wrote: »

I think it's patently obvious that no one here believes you discussed those stats with a professional analyst. But you keep digging that hole!

:rolleyes:

whatever. I know several coaches and analysts involved in the pro set up. Perhaps i could ask some more of them. If they tell me its a load of bollix, fair enough. I'm not digging a hole in any way, saying factually that james Ryan is outperforming POM as a rugby player, in regards to a captaincy debate. He is end of story. Number wise, again easily corroborated , Ruddock in pure numbers is also outdoing him. Carries, tackles, metres made. Core fundamentals of a six. And james Ryan also has 12 or so turnovers won. But POM is on about 22 or so which is a very good number, obviously not all are jackals.

https://www.optasports.com/sports/rugby-union/

I'd be fairly certain it wouldn't be so different with these. Ryan would still be blowing POM out of the water.

Its so hard to fathom with Peter, it must be the face that gets them. He has what, Demented Mole used to say, was "good face"

Stout Warrior

Niallof9 wrote: »

??

I only sent it to one yesterday. He had no issue with it whatsoever. He didn't even know that it was rugby pass, he himself mentioned rugby pass and how Ryan was number one. So stop with your arrogant guffawing.

I'm the one laughing at your ignorance. Yeah it doesn't take some stats into consideration, like certain ruck stats (where POM can be a good cleaner, but not as good as people make out if u player watch, being a pillar man in an offensive ruck is old style ruck inspecting/its easy)and obviously we had Ringrose talk about it yesterday regarding tackle stats. But u can see with your eyes that the Ryan stats add up, particularly compared to POM. If you want to pretend that it isn't so, well thats your choice.

Are you willing to pay for some of the other databases? I'm not. Its the best free one available to punters.

Sure i seem to remember you were one of the lads who often had that laughable suggestion that form doesn't matter? or am i mistaken. which i mean, would feed into your beliefs around stats.

POM on his day can be very very good - https://www.sportsjoe.ie/rugby/analysis-exactly-peter-omahony-ireland-every-time-143185

He was great last year at times, the all blacks. He is a big game player when the team is humming. But i don't think thats enough now. He's not the guy to get the motor running.

I think now that Healy is winding down, SOB gone (as he was for ages anyway, but it was still a sort of crutch), Furlong tired, Stander refusing to adapt his game,...we'll realise we don't have enough good, big carriers.

This is the main reason he can't be captain, which would make him undroppable.

If we don't have enough good big carriers then you'd be advocating selecting Kleyne or Roux over the current second rows. They add heft by hitting and clearing out rucks. Are you advocating that?

[Deleted User]

This nonsense is actually very close to a scene from the inbetweeners:

Neil: How about this one then?
Jay: Championship Manager? Completed it.
Neil: But you cant complete it.
Jay: Er, I know, But I got so good at it they offered me a role in the England set-up.
Neil: Did they?
Jay: I took Woking from the conference to the champions league in 6 seasons, that kind of stuff doesn't go unnoticed.

Niallof9

Deleted User wrote: »

This nonsense is actually very close to a scene from the inbetweeners:

pot kettle, some fair amount of nonsense over the time with yourself

[Deleted User]

We don't need Rugbypass to confirm how average POM has been over a prolonged period of time.

Stout Warrior

Niallof9 wrote: »

pot kettle, some fair amount of nonsense over the time with yourself

Answer my question do you think stats compensate for the energy sapping tackles that have to be made on men the size of Roux or Kleyne? The graft they put into hitting rucks with their body weight can’t be calculated by stats

Shefwedfan

Niallof9 wrote: »

pot kettle, some fair amount of nonsense over the time with yourself

At this stage
You have played with a number of Irish internationals....to prove your right
You are a coach in AIL....to prove your right
You now are in contact with rugby analysts.....to prove your right

Not saying anything here but you can’t deny a bit of a trend

Niallof9

Stout Warrior wrote: »

Answer my question do you think stats compensate for the energy sapping tackles that have to be made on men the size of Roux or Kleyne? The graft they put into hitting rucks with their body weight can’t be calculated by stats

Thats true. I said they only paint one part of the picture. POM has loads of stuff that probably weigh in his favor. He is clearly a good talker, a leader, somebody people respect. He's probably a lineout leader. Maybe he's an insane trainer.

I agree.