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Sweden v Ireland healthcare

Greentopia

So been weighing my options lately as to whether I should stay on our little isle or move back to Sweden. The main (and really only) issue that's making me think about leaving is the healthcare system here... quite frankly it scares the bejezus out of me, especially as I'm middle aged now. Far better in Sweden, no question. I love this country and am happy here, but worried about what the future might bring if I or my partner were to need medical care...which will happen sooner rather than later I'm sure as we're both middle aged now.

What say ye...would you consider a move there if you had the chance? I'm not going to base my decision on the responses I get in AH

, have to have a serious discussion over Christmas with the other half over about it, just wanted to see what ye think.

Would you leave Ireland for Sweden or any other affluent country just because our healthcare system is substandard? how important is it really to you?

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Still waters

Omari Enough Photocopier wrote: »

Surely some impacts would be felt e.g. simply Commuting to Denmark (new checkpoints introduced).

The stats and surveys for crime show some very significant rises
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Sweden
One chart shows broad 200% rise over 20yrs. Currently crime stands higher than the EU27 average. Reports of sex crimes up 300% in just 3yrs, (BRÅ NTU survey) Perhaps why female-only music festivals haven since been introduced. Gun homicides up circa 250% in 4yrs. Various offences against the individual are all up in recent years https://www.bra.se/bra-in-english/home/crime-and-statistics/swedish-crime-survey.html (nearly double, in all areas, again since 2014-15).

Over 100 big-bangs this year so far: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-50339977 Forcing Denmark to reinstates border checks at crossings https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/nov/12/denmark-border-checks-crossings-sweden

.

100 bombs a year :eek: if that was northern Ireland there would be an international peace commission headed by the yanks

Strumms

questionmark? wrote: »

Ssshhhhhhhhh don't mention the elephant in the room.

Go down to A&E and see junkies, alcoholics, fûckwits, fighters and every dreg of society that you can imagine, clogging up the system and the system putting them before genuine cases of people with tangible illness... having been treated and sent on their way determined to stall and waffle the heads off nurses and doctors “yiszzz are bleedin grea but what about zzzz and xxxx and ahhhh howya Tommo, hold on... nurse nurse nurse”... been there, seen it, had my phone robbed in there.... elephants alright... the dregs... our dregs...

Glenbhoy

Greentopia wrote: »

I did have it but not at the moment. Private health insurance doesn't solve all the problems one may be likely to encounter though that I mentioned. It just means you can skip the waiting lists and get a nicer room.

My limited understanding is that waiting lists are the main problem, if you can counter that issue through private health insurance, what problems remain?

Stovepipe

the consultant that was supposed to do a public health job was too busy doing his nixers, to attend to public patients.

topper75

Strumms wrote: »

Go down to A&E and see junkies, alcoholics, fûckwits, fighters and every dreg of society that you can imagine, clogging up the system and the system putting them before genuine cases of people with tangible illness... having been treated and sent on their way determined to stall and waffle the heads off nurses and doctors “yiszzz are bleedin grea but what about zzzz and xxxx and ahhhh howya Tommo, hold on... nurse nurse nurse”... been there, seen it, had my phone robbed in there.... elephants alright... the dregs... our dregs...

100% valid complaint there Strumms. But I don't think that Swedish-style unchecked immigration could be our fix for that.

andekwarhola

ush wrote: »

€12 a pint? Bull****. More like €8 for a Guinness, €7.50 for a lager.

A mere pittance, so.

Raconteuse

If you have skills that could land you employment anywhere, do give it a go seeing as you have the opportunity. You can always come back.

Billy Mays

Only country where the clouds are interesting iirc

LineOfBeauty

Only visited Sweden never lived there. But it's beautiful, and some of the best people I've met in my life are Swedish, they're so outgoing and nice. And the people are beautiful, just a nation of ridiculously beautiful people. The food is good too. The healthcare, the education, must be among the best in the world. The public transport system is so easy and seems to cater for the actual needs of the population. Sweden, a great country.

1o059k7ewrqj3n

Ireland is a fine country as long as you aren't sick, elderly, have kids, are a woman or looking for somewhere to live.

Sweden's lovely and all but **** the Systembolaget.

pablo128

andekwarhola wrote: »

A mere pittance, so.

Norway is their version of Newry. They drive or get a coach and load up on cheap gargle.

bunderoon

kennypowers wrote: »

Its about 200/250 for a MRI in affeida scan centers.Not to belittle your predicament but surely that amount could be gathered or saved between yourself and immediate family.3 days is too long to wait never mind 3 years when it comes to your own health.

I went for the MRI privately. 2 infact.
But I am waiting for a second opinion - as a tax payer. Large one at that...

topper75

pablo128 wrote: »

Norway is their version of Newry. They drive or get a coach and load up on cheap gargle.

Isn't that the other way around? i.e. eastern NOR shoppers cross to SVE to escape the oil inflation?

Mad_maxx

Greentopia wrote: »

So been weighing my options lately as to whether I should stay on our little isle or move back to Sweden. The main (and really only) issue that's making me think about leaving is the healthcare system here... quite frankly it scares the bejezus out of me, especially as I'm middle aged now. Far better in Sweden, no question. I love this country and am happy here, but worried about what the future might bring if I or my partner were to need medical care...which will happen sooner rather than later I'm sure as we're both middle aged now.

What say ye...would you consider a move there if you had the chance? I'm not going to base my decision on the responses I get in AH , have to have a serious discussion over Christmas with the other half over about it, just wanted to see what ye think.

Would you leave Ireland for Sweden or any other affluent country just because our healthcare system is substandard? how important is it really to you?

Ireland is PC enough, never mind moving to Sweden

johnnyskeleton

enricoh wrote: »

If I was single I would definitely leave Ireland for Sweden! Dunno how the health systems compare though. on the other hand e12 a pint and a longer winter would get old fast !

At e12 a pint you'd probably take up running and healthy eating instead, thus obviating the need for health insurance.

Still waters

LessOutragePlz wrote: »

I can echo this tore an ACL didn't have health insurance and was told I'd be waiting at least 2 years in the public system or I could pay the €4000+ myself and get it done within a month. Took a loan out and went for the latter for the sake of my long term knee health.

I thought there was a system where you could pay and reclaim some if the costs back, or can someone go to another European country and get it done and get reimbursed, i remember reading something like that , ive to get the same procedure done and ill probably just have to pay for it rather than waiting

BorneTobyWilde

You said move back to Sweden, not move to Sweden, huge difference. If it's your home then it makes sense to move back.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

kennypowers wrote: »

Its about 200/250 for a MRI in affeida scan centers.Not to belittle your predicament but surely that amount could be gathered or saved between yourself and immediate family.3 days is too long to wait never mind 3 years when it comes to your own health.

GPs dissuaded me from paying for a private CT scan, cautioning that costs would mount and citing my young age. At the time, I was a very symptomatic cancer patient. I was dying really. I totally agree with you, paying for scans is worth it. But doctors can be very funny about referring people, very reticent.

Fr_Dougal

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

GPs dissuaded me from paying for a private CT scan, cautioning that costs would mount and citing my young age. At the time, I was a very symptomatic cancer patient. I was dying really. I totally agree with you, paying for scans is worth it. But doctors can be very funny about referring people, very reticent.

If you went with an initial private scan would that have precluded you from using public healthcare?

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Fr_Dougal wrote: »

If you went with an initial private scan would that have precluded you from using public healthcare?

Sorry, misread. Deleted my first response.

I actually don’t know! It was insanity that I wasn’t top of the queue for public healthcare with tumours in both my bones and lungs.

Fr_Dougal

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

That’s true but their dismissiveness was enough to dissuade me from pursuing it because they made me feel like I was being silly. You go to a doctor for medical advice and sometimes put too much trust in them.

I’ve learned that you have to be very persistent with doctors, when you know something is up be as pushy as hell.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Fr_Dougal wrote: »

I’ve learned that you have to be very persistent with doctors, when you know something is up be as pushy as hell.

I misread your first post there so what you’ve quoted there probably doesn’t make much sense.

Oh, god, believe me, I know. I was dismissed so much. The first time I went, I had a symptom that should have seen me referred to the next available breast clinic. Instead I was handwaved away because I was 29. I wasn’t diagnosed until 2.5 YEARS after that. I was going to go to the Wellwoman centre that first time. How I wish I did.

Greentopia

wakka12 wrote: »

It's just exaggerated as usual by the media and lapped up by a gormless public who dont know any better and just love to give out because theyre bored. Have you actually dealt with any irish healthcare facilities? Mostly a totally adequate and professional service and I think your fears are mostly unwarranted especially as you think its such an important issue that you might need to immigrate, its definitely nowhere near that bad. irish healthcare is better than in most of the world

I have no doubt the media loves to report bad news stories more than good and that includes Irish healthcare, but the numbers on trolleys and waiting lists don't lie. The shortage of nurses in many hospitals including my local one is not exaggerated. The recruitment and retention crisis of consultants in many disciplines is not exaggerated.

Read today about the fact there is one children pain consultant for the whole of the country and he's quitting for Canada because he's completely overworked and does not have adequate funding for his unit nor has the multidisciplinary team required to deliver the quality care needed.
And before he was recruited four years ago children needing pain management were sent to other countries for treatment. Unless another consultant can fill the position Dr. McCarthy in Temple St. is vacating the future looks bleak for the children under his care and others on waiting lists to see him.

Would you think it's adequate if your child had to wait three years on an outpatient list to see Dr. McCarthy?

And I don't care quite frankly if Irish healthcare is deemed "better than in most of the world". It's nonsense to compare healthcare systems in developing countries in Africa or the Middle East for example to a developed European nation. Why set the bar that low?
Why not to the best elsewhere in Europe like France, Scandinavia, Germany, Finland, Netherlands?

wakka12 wrote: »

In this recent study of world health care standards by WHO, Ireland ranked two places ahead of Sweden at a very respectable number 19 in the world.
http://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/best-healthcare-in-the-world/

That's not been my direct experience and comparison of Irish and Swedish systems. Sweden also has universal healthcare, Ireland does not. I was able to see a gynaecologist there within days for mild endometriosis treatment. I could literally pick who I wanted from a list in the phone directory and book consultations over the phone or I could go a few tram stops from where I lived and go to the nearest health clinic.

Here I went to my GP and was told I would be on a waiting list to see a gynaecologist for a year or more as a non-emergency case. Currently there are 30,000 women on a waiting list for a gynaecologist in Ireland. How is this in any way shape or form "adequate" to the needs of the population?

When my ex needed treatment for his acute OCD he got a team of psychologists and neuroscientists treating him in the specialised outpatient OCD climic in Sahlgrenska University hospital in Gothenburg. There are specialists for OCD in all major cities in Sweden and there's a patients advocacy group that has chapters in all major towns and cities throughout the country one can turn to for support and information.

No waiting lists for either myself or my ex and all affordable in the tax funded public system-I paid 200SEK-around €20 per visit in Sweden to see any consultant.
Contrast that with one private OCD clinic in Dublin that charges minimum €80 per visit.

Greentopia

Omari Enough Photocopier wrote: »

Surely some impacts would be felt e.g. simply Commuting to Denmark (new checkpoints introduced).

The stats and surveys for crime show some very significant rises
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Sweden
One chart shows broad 200% rise over 20yrs. Currently crime stands higher than the EU27 average. Reports of sex crimes up 300% in just 3yrs, (BRÅ NTU survey) Perhaps why female-only music festivals haven since been introduced. Gun homicides up circa 250% in 4yrs. Various offences against the individual are all up in recent years https://www.bra.se/bra-in-english/home/crime-and-statistics/swedish-crime-survey.html (nearly double, in all areas, again since 2014-15).

Over 100 big-bangs this year so far: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-50339977 Forcing Denmark to reinstates border checks at crossings https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/nov/12/denmark-border-checks-crossings-sweden

Recently Swedish police have announced a 'special national incident' to look into the sudden phonemanal rise of violent crime. Stockholm has also fallen out of the top20 cities index (for the 1st time in ages) (Mercer QoL), for both of the last 2yrs.

Sure, it's low compared to Samolia or somewhere, but the fast rate of increase would be a major consideration in any move, for anyone. Great health service or not.

WIKI is not a credible source.
Secondly my first hand experience of having lived there and what my Swedish friends still living there tell me now is that most of the highly publicised increase in crime like gun murders and public order offences has occurred in several specific areas in the suburbs of the major cities of Stockholm, Gothenburg and Malmo. Not once in my eight years there did I ever have reason to go to any of those neighbourhoods as I wanted to live where the majority of native Swedes lived. That's why I moved there- to experience Swedish culture and have Swedish friends.

Of course I'm sure you can find trouble if you go to places like Biskopsgården or Rinkeby, especially if you go there with film crews with the intention of provoking the locals gangs into a reaction as some foreign media have done to get their preconceptions validated and good tabloid copy for their viewers. But that tells precisely nothing about how everyday life is for the vast majority of law abiding Swedes or immigrants.

It would be like moving to say the North inner city in Dublin and concluding that Dublin as a whole therefore must be a high crime, drug infested city to stay clear of.

Sexual crime figures are collated differently in Sweden, where every offence is logged as a crime when first reported, and that remains on the stats even if later it has been found that no crime can be proven to have occurred.
Also the number of incidents is collated differently so for example if someone is raped three times in the one time frame that is logged as three cases of rape, not one. Or if a woman is raped every night for six months by her husband that would be logged as perhaps 180 cases of rape, not one.
How many times does this have to be explained before people understand this??
:rolleyes:

Furthermore sexual crimes are reported to the police there at a higher rate than most other countries. Why? because the Swedish police and judiciary enjoy widespread confidence and support, and people there know any such crime will be taken seriously and thoroughly investigated. And corruption is to all intents and purposes non-existent in the Swedish police force.

The stats for bra.se- assault for the last three years show a slightly increasing trend. Slight. The victims were most commonly 16-19 years old. I fall far outside that age bracket.

Threats-again the main victims are in that young age group.

Sexual offences had decreased by 6% between 2017 and 2018.

Robbery remains unchanged. Harassment has unfortunately increased, and again primarily the victims are young women.

Property theft and burglary remains extremely low by international standards and far lower than Ireland. Bicycle theft was the biggest fear I ever had in Sweden.

So yes while sadly there has been an increase in some crimes, you have to break it down to age group and where these crimes occur to get a truer picture.

If I move back it will be to the countryside and outskirts of a sleepy small town somewhere in the South, not to any city anyway; where there are no gangs, no fire bombings and few if any murders or sexual crimes. I'll take my chances with the savage local population of moose and rabbits. :pac:

Now I really don't want get dragged off topic about this again, thanks.

Greentopia

Glenbhoy wrote: »

My limited understanding is that waiting lists are the main problem, if you can counter that issue through private health insurance, what problems remain?

The chaos in A&E departments, not enough specialists and consultants, staff shortages like nurses-go to any hospital or clinics in Germany for example and you will see far higher numbers of staff that here.

And why are we paying PRSI and income taxes if not for good quality public care?

Greentopia

Steyr 556 wrote: »

lovely and all but **** the Systembolaget.

The Systembolaget is fine so long as you don't stupidly leave it until the last minute to buy alcohol, especially the day before Midsummer or New Years. Prices I found reasonable and much lower than in pubs. You can get a reasonable bottle of wine cheaper than here and the staff are knowledgeable.

TuringBot47

ArchXStanton wrote: »

I'd leave, my father got a cancer on his ear about the size of a pimple a few months back, by the time he waited to get it seen too and removed it had grown to the size of a strawberry and he lost his ear, it boils my piss this country

My father had a lump on his tongue, a non smoker and had to have a quarter of his tongue removed due to oral cancer. Certain cancers are very aggressive and your going to lose a lump of something.

I'm grateful they treated it and he can still talk just fine.
He's been clear for over 5 years

A brother in law had oral cancer on his lip... treated.
A friend had a double mastectomy, treated.

I think you should focus on the end result.

Sweden is a lovely country, although their liberal policies have bit them in the ass with immigrants rioting against them. Still a better government than we have, but also being rich in resources you can afford to be good to your citizens. Ireland is dirt poor and crippled in debt.

Greentopia

Still waters wrote: »

100 bombs a year :eek: if that was northern Ireland there would be an international peace commission headed by the yanks

It's a worrying development no doubt, but I think we need to keep it in proportion and take not of this part:
"The attacks are usually carried out by criminal gangs to scare rival groups or their close friends or family, she says.
"This is a serious situation, but most people shouldn't be worried, because they are not going to be affected."

If middle class areas are are now being affected you can be sure the authorities will step up efforts to deal with this.

Greentopia

Mad_maxx wrote: »

Ireland is PC enough, never mind moving to Sweden

Sigh...I suppose it was asking too much to get opinions on moving to Sweden and not expect comments like this.

Bertie's Horse was right. All the InfoWars experts come out of the woodwork whenever Sweden is mentioned. :rolleyes:

pinkyeye

Hi OP,

This one is interesting to me because I've a cousin who lives in Sweden because he's married to a Swedish lady and he's totally miserable but I think that maybe because he still hasn't mastered the language so he's quite lonely. I think Irish people in general are bad at languages (I certainly am) and that's what puts me off moving abroad

However, you've lived there before and have Swedish friends so I presume you have some of the language at least.

I totally agree with your concerns about the health service. I too am reaching middle age and thankfully haven't got any major problems yet but my mother has had and the treatment is atrocious. She actually has private health insurance which they pay 4k a year for and that's a huge struggle but it doesn't help when an ambulance is called because an ambulance will not go to a private hospital so you end up in the public system whether you like it or not.

Recently she ended up in A&E for 3 days, moved from a cubicle to corridor. After suffering this and being terrified by men handcuffed to trolleys and pulling them down the corridor and other people screaming and shouting and security being called etc. she eventually overheard the doctors and nurses discussing her diagnosis and found out in the corridor that she was terminal and there was nothing to be done except pain management.

How fcuking horrible is that? There is no dignity involved in our health service.

I've also seen it with my Aunt who had a terminal diagnosis and yet whenever she got really bad she still had to go through A&E, it's very simple there should be a place where cancer patients go in an ambulance where they're treated with dignity but no, Irish can't think laterally.

If the Swedish health system is as good as you say and you like it there and speak the language then I'd go.