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M50 Congestion

First Up

I had to go from Dalkey to just off the N81 towards Blessington yesterday at about 5pm. The obvious (only?) route was via Cherrywood to the M50 and off at Firhouse. I expected it to be busy but nothing could prepare me for the experience.

No problems getting to the M50 but as I approached the Carrickmines junction the signs were flashing about delays and I could already see the tailback ahead. It then took well over an hour to cover the few miles to Firhouse. There was no sign of any accidents and the traffic programme on Dublin City FM just casually mentioned it was slow but it sounded like they considered this normal.

Is this normal? The motorway on that section is at least 2 and mostly 3 lanes and the only "complications" are a couple of exit and entry points. Is that all it takes to reduce traffic to 5k an hour in first gear? (It seemed to be equally bad further on.)

Do regular users have to put up with this every day?

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LeinsterDub

ReginaldSmythV wrote: »

I think you need to look up the old attempted murder definition there.

Dangerous driving so. Sure you're saying you it's been done on purpose

[Deleted User]

LeinsterDub wrote: »

If there are no accidents we'll charge anyone involved in a crash with murder /attempted murder so

I think you need to look up the old attempted murder definition there.

LeinsterDub

ReginaldSmythV wrote: »

There’s no accidents, there’s people being careless and driving like they’re in a race.

If there are no accidents we'll charge anyone involved in a crash with murder /attempted murder so

[Deleted User]

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I can understand the point your making, but I'm afraid I'd have to disagree with it.

Generally speaking, people don't deliberately set out to cause accidents. They are just that - an accident. All it takes is a momentary lapse in concentration and you could be in major trouble.

Would also be unfair to those who find themselves unlucky enough to be victims of 'crash for cash' insurance claim attempts.

There’s no accidents, there’s people being careless and driving like they’re in a race.

[Deleted User]

ReginaldSmythV wrote: »

Yes that’s what I meant. If found to be at fault there should be a mechanism to apply points also.

I can understand the point your making, but I'm afraid I'd have to disagree with it.

Generally speaking, people don't deliberately set out to cause accidents. They are just that - an accident. All it takes is a momentary lapse in concentration and you could be in major trouble.

Would also be unfair to those who find themselves unlucky enough to be victims of 'crash for cash' insurance claim attempts.

First Up

donvito99 wrote:

So why is driver behaviour this bad when we already have 'enforcement'?

Because it isn't enforced as well as it should (and could) be.

donvito99

First Up wrote: »

Ever hear of fines or penalty points?

So why is driver behaviour this bad when we already have 'enforcement'?

First Up

donvito99 wrote:

i.e. no enforcement whatsoever?

Ever hear of fines or penalty points?

donvito99

First Up wrote: »

Same way as all driving behaviour is enforced.

i.e. no enforcement whatsoever?

First Up

LeinsterDub wrote:

What's hard to grasp is how you'll enforce this improvement.

Same way as all driving behaviour is enforced.

Nijmegen

Delays and accidents are caused by a variety of contributory factors that each add some statistical grains of sand to the probabilities. There is no doubt that much congestion is simply caused by the volume of traffic; but equally there are a lot of unnecessary additional delays caused by, for example, crazy driving like that Steve witnessed; or breakdowns from poorly maintained cars (not picking on Steve, stuff happens - but there are folks who just run out of fuel or ignore warning lights on the M50 each year); or rubber necking slowdowns.

Control for what you can control for, I guess. Regular high quality cameras at regular intervals to get full coverage and a promise that if an accident occurs because you did something egregiously stupid (like swing into a lane without proper care) and hefty fines, loss of license, etc may follow. Of course you can't prosecute every case successfully, but perhaps the threat will stop it. Proper barriers between the north and southbound lanes to kill rubber necking, which has to be one of the thickest forms of collective driving we know. Major fines for people whose car breaks down on the motorway for lack of fuel, because there isn't really much excuse.

Like those grains of statistical sand they will prevent some delays and not others but it's worth a shot at trying to do something proactive.

[Deleted User]

[Deleted User] wrote: »

What monetary penalty is there for being at fault in an accident?

(unless you mean insurance premium increases?)

Yes that’s what I meant. If found to be at fault there should be a mechanism to apply points also.

LeinsterDub

First Up wrote: »

"Accidents" are caused by drivers doing something they shouldn't. Improve driver behaviour and you have less accidents.

It isn't that hard to grasp.

What's hard to grasp is how you'll enforce this improvement.

[Deleted User]

ReginaldSmythV wrote: »

It’s worth noting a lot of things but we’re all just saying how they should improve things. Another thing is link the fault of an accident to a points penalty as well as the usual monetary one.

What monetary penalty is there for being at fault in an accident?

(unless you mean insurance premium increases?)

[Deleted User]

Captcha wrote: »

A special person buys a Dacia Duster

A person that can’t drive going by my experiences on the roads.

Captcha

Irish Steve wrote: »

Spent an hour on the side of the M50 this afternoon as a result of an injector failure, and it was eye opening. The number of people who don't indicate, or use the correct lane was significant, but the number of people that really should not be allowed near a motorway is insane. We were about 400 metres short of Junction 9 southbound (Red Cow), and I'd pulled off because even in limp mode, it was dangerous to continue at the speed I was able to get, and there was no hard shoulder just in front of me, and stopping in the carriageway wasn't an option.

The absolute insane moment was while I was sitting in the cab of the AA recovery truck while the car was loaded, a Dacia Duster in the second lane out stopped next to the truck with a left turn indication flashing, and basically brought 2 lanes of the motorway to a standstill until someone in Lane 1 let it in to the lane, and at that point, it crossed lane 1, and pulled up on the left, 50 meters in front of the breakdown truck, with the hazard warnings on, not really off the lane, as there was not a full hard shoulder at that point, a bridge, what was the hard shoulder had been lost when it was used as the widening lane during the most recent upgrade of that section.

It sat there for a good 10 minutes, and eventually pulled out again, almost causing another crash, due to the lack of space, so it fully joined Lane 1 (the Naas Road exit lane) at a standstill pace. We don't know what the reason for stopping was, the most likely is that the driver was lost, and trying to decide if they needed the next junction or not, or they just had to answer a phone call, so stopped. Either way, it was highly dangerous, and it was only luck that there wasn't a major accident as a result of total stupidity, HGV's were forced to move to their right partially into lane 2 to avoid hitting it.

Then, 15 minutes later, we were northbound at Blanchardstown, and there was an incident there, the northbound lane was almost at a standstill, as was the southbound, and on getting closer, there was nothing wrong on the northbound other than too many people rubbernecking a Garda incident on the hard shoulder of the southbound carriageway. Seeing an incident of that nature makes me think that the central barriers need to be updated to make it impossible for drivers to see what's happening on the other carriageway, there was absolutely no excuse for any sort of delay on the northbound lanes, as there was no incident of any sort on that side of the road.

These are the sort of reasons for the M50 not working as it should, and they are nothing to do with the design of the road, and everything to do with people who don't know how to drive on a motorway.

A special person buys a Dacia Duster

First Up

LeinsterDub wrote:

I know you think this is some kind of epic zinger but this is the exact point we've been making for ages. You can't legislate for everyone, you can't prevent all accidents or breakdowns

"Accidents" are caused by drivers doing something they shouldn't. Improve driver behaviour and you have less accidents.

It isn't that hard to grasp.

Irish Steve

Spent an hour on the side of the M50 this afternoon as a result of an injector failure, and it was eye opening. The number of people who don't indicate, or use the correct lane was significant, but the number of people that really should not be allowed near a motorway is insane. We were about 400 metres short of Junction 9 southbound (Red Cow), and I'd pulled off because even in limp mode, it was dangerous to continue at the speed I was able to get, and there was no hard shoulder just in front of me, and stopping in the carriageway wasn't an option.

The absolute insane moment was while I was sitting in the cab of the AA recovery truck while the car was loaded, a Dacia Duster in the second lane out stopped next to the truck with a left turn indication flashing, and basically brought 2 lanes of the motorway to a standstill until someone in Lane 1 let it in to the lane, and at that point, it crossed lane 1, and pulled up on the left, 50 meters in front of the breakdown truck, with the hazard warnings on, not really off the lane, as there was not a full hard shoulder at that point, a bridge, what was the hard shoulder had been lost when it was used as the widening lane during the most recent upgrade of that section.

It sat there for a good 10 minutes, and eventually pulled out again, almost causing another crash, due to the lack of space, so it fully joined Lane 1 (the Naas Road exit lane) at a standstill pace. We don't know what the reason for stopping was, the most likely is that the driver was lost, and trying to decide if they needed the next junction or not, or they just had to answer a phone call, so stopped. Either way, it was highly dangerous, and it was only luck that there wasn't a major accident as a result of total stupidity, HGV's were forced to move to their right partially into lane 2 to avoid hitting it.

Then, 15 minutes later, we were northbound at Blanchardstown, and there was an incident there, the northbound lane was almost at a standstill, as was the southbound, and on getting closer, there was nothing wrong on the northbound other than too many people rubbernecking a Garda incident on the hard shoulder of the southbound carriageway. Seeing an incident of that nature makes me think that the central barriers need to be updated to make it impossible for drivers to see what's happening on the other carriageway, there was absolutely no excuse for any sort of delay on the northbound lanes, as there was no incident of any sort on that side of the road.

These are the sort of reasons for the M50 not working as it should, and they are nothing to do with the design of the road, and everything to do with people who don't know how to drive on a motorway.

LeinsterDub

First Up wrote: »

Not with you around by the look of it.

Those acts if god are pesky critters eh?

I know you think this is some kind of epic zinger but this is the exact point we've been making for ages. You can't legislate for everyone, you can't prevent all accidents or breakdowns

liamog

MJohnston wrote: »

Well, except that the only thing you can actually automatically capture on the M50 is speed enforcement. So you'd still need some way to enforce against tailgating, lane abuse, and anything else that's actually enforceable. Which could only be done with real people.

There have been trials of cameras that catch mobile phone usage whilst driving. It's similar tech to red light cameras. Put these on every gantry/overpass on the M50.

https://www.news.com.au/technology/innovation/motoring/hitech/drivers-using-mobile-phones-could-be-fined-without-even-knowing-theyve-been-caught/news-story/ecb141e8552b39560f7f395802e447d7

magicbastarder

re the use of cameras to catch misbehaving motorists, i haven't heard any more about this story other than the scrap of it that's not behind the paywall. seems quite odd, and without further detail it's hard to tell whether it only affects automated systems which proactively scan reg plates for issues, rather than ones being triggered by something like speeding:

Gardaí are told to switch off number plate ID cameras

https://www.businesspost.ie/ireland/gardai-are-told-to-switch-off-number-plate-id-cameras-5a0b7709

magicbastarder

monument wrote: »

We don't need to keep adding "one more lane" -- we can stop before we get as bad as LA: https://twitter.com/urbanthoughts11/status/1191295205187686400?s=20

OT, but i read a book a few years ago called 'a burglar's guide to the city'; about how building design and layout of cities plays into how and where crimes are committed. there was a chapter about LA's road layout, and how it led to banks placing branches at highway junctions, as it was easy for people to get to them then. it also led to the preponderance of armed robbery with getaway car, as it was very quick for the car to get back onto the highway; the 'car chase being filmed from a helicopter' phenonmenon started in LA i think.

X111111111111

Everyones a terrible driver but me.

monument

various artistes wrote: »

I feel an underground road tunnel through town is a far more worthwhile investment than a railway to the airport, one starting at the foot of the N11 dual carriageway and emerging at the end of the port tunnel would cut the M50 crowd in half- build a few flyovers on the N11 and you could even eliminate the traffic lights on it and up the speed limit to 100kph. People who moan about it being the only European capital without a rail link seem to forget that most European airports aren't a 15 minute drive from the city centre.

It's not mainly about speed, it's about capacity -- a rail tunnel has far higher capacity than a road tunnel. It makes no sense to build more motorways around Dublin and even less sense to build car tunnels in place of a metro tunnel with far greater ability to carry people.

We don't need to keep adding "one more lane" -- we can stop before we get as bad as LA: https://twitter.com/urbanthoughts11/status/1191295205187686400?s=20

monument

Sorry to inform some of you, but the gantries for variable speed limit and lane control signalling are already in place on the M50 and elsewhere, for example between the N4 and N7 on the M50 there's three such gantries north bound, two south bound and one across both directions.

The electronics just need to be added and the legislation is on the way in the Road Traffic (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill.

To be clear:

This is a gantry designed to hold signs:

https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.3206806,-6.3692225,3a,27.4y,119.87h,100.32t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sOry9slwQSmNf8Qp-pwHMmA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

This is a gantry designed to hold electric speed limit signs which can switch to lane closed signs:

https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.3231448,-6.3720358,3a,43.1y,145.39h,102.24t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1se5RTqteN1I1DJ0h6I8W2GA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Just to be clear: This is needed for safety. Motorway speed controls will reduced the amount of collision and how bad they are.

Charles Babbage

MJohnston wrote: »

Well, except that the only thing you can actually automatically capture on the M50 is speed enforcement. So you'd still need some way to enforce against tailgating, lane abuse, and anything else that's actually enforceable. Which could only be done with real people.

Tailgating, lane abuse etc could be identified by camera, all that is then needed is a finite number of real people to review incidents already tagged.

The problem is not the technology, it is the willingness.

First Up

ReginaldSmythV wrote:

Anyway, when has Shane Ross ever been right about anything? The bluenose has never been in traffic in his life and hopefully wonâ€™t be in the job much longer.

I think the bigger problem is with the RSA. They are only interested in preventing crashes that cause death or injury; the fender benders that block the M50 pass them by.

It needs them to take it seriously but it really needs a wider and coordinated effort starting from driving instruction and the driving licence test right through to monitoring and especially enforcement.

Driver behaviour WILL change and improve if the price of non compliance is high enough.

Thargor

ReginaldSmythV wrote: »

It could be stopped. The authorities just choose not to bother.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-related_death_rate

Seeing as Ireland has some of the safest drivers on the planet can you outline what this magic system for eliminating traffic accidents would look like? Or explain why all the countries below us dont deploy a system like it? Or even just copy Ireland seeing as its so easy to click your fingers and change driver behaviour across the board like you're claiming.

First Up

tom1ie wrote:

Agreed. Steps could be taken to reduce it via anpr cameras but Shane Ross has ruled them out.

You don't need anpr to analyse a crash. You use the cctv to see who caused it and punish with fines and points.

tom1ie

ReginaldSmythV wrote: »

It could be stopped. The authorities just choose not to bother.

Agreed. Steps could be taken to reduce it via anpr cameras but Shane Ross has ruled them out.