sydthebeat wrote: » Not enough questions asked of nucifora and the IRFUs oversight in my opinion. Where was the communications with the players about the stress of intensity levels, degree of detail accumulation, game plan issues. Who watches the watch men? Was it simply a case of Joe having gotten Ireland to such heights that there was no one in a position to say whoa, stall the ball, this may not be the right way to go with things?? As they could never have been in a similar position before... A case of icarus.....
bilston wrote: » In the same way coaches have to judge whether players will react better to a carrot or stick approach, players have to make the same judgements on coaches. Maybe Kidney was more open to letting Kearney speak out in 2008/09 than Schmidt would have have been in 2019. I reckon this has all been blown out of proportion anyway by the media. Although...interestingly I did hear a story recently about a retired international who would have played in the early years of the Schmidt regime speak in not particularly favourable terms about Joe. I was surprised to hear it actually. But then that's just hearsay and the player in question wasn't involved in the 2019 WC.
Former Former wrote: » I think the last few days confirm what we already knew, i.e. Joe is a total control freak and the playing squad was devoid of real leaders. I guess it's natural that players who had been so successful under Joe would be slow to question him but it sounds like someone needed to step up. Unfortunately this group of players didn't have a Wood, BOD or POC like previous years. Best wasn't that man and neither were POM and Sexton. Remember the story about Kearney standing up and calling out the Munster guys in 2008? That this was somehow the turning point for the 2009 GS? I've always thought this was nonsense but maybe that's what was needed this year, a player from outside the established leadership group to call shenanigans on Joe, Best and the situation. The other thing that's worth nothing is that if what we're hearing is accurate, it all happened while Andy Farrell was standing there watching on...
Professor Genius wrote: » Given the level of deference shown to Joe (just look at this forum) I would say no one thought they were in a position to question him. IRFU need to be very careful never to allow such control freakery to be present in future head coaches.
Shefwedfan wrote: » I’m not saying joe didn’t make mistakes but he had a manager for Ireland team, Nucifora, irfu etc....people seem to forget about all these people Maybe joe and the coaching team was too close to it. They needed someone from outside to come in and say “lads we need to review what we are doing” Is that Nucifora job? The managers job? If not what’s the point in all these jobs?
ClanofLams wrote: » The buck has to stop somewhere. Last November Schmidt was being lauded as a coaching genius and the best in the world. I didn’t hear too many on here giving off about it being simplistic. He’s an excellent coach, the best Ireland have had but he made significant mistakes this year, as did others around him. Don’t think anyone is coming out of the post mortem very well to be honest.
ClanofLams wrote: » Don’t think anyone is coming out of the post mortem very well to be honest.
molloyjh wrote: » It's pretty clear from what we're hearing what actually happened. It started with the players falling into bad habits and when they couldnt get out of that rut themselves the coaches tried to do it for them. But that ended up only making things worse. And there was nobody from the outside looking in calling it out, which would call into question what Nucifora and the IRFU as a whole were doing between the 6Ns and the RWC. I know some people want to be able to boil it down to a simple, blame one man hot take, but real life isnt often that simplistic.
ionadnapokot wrote: » It’s been pretty clear ever since the 1st game of the 6N v England that Murray, Sexton and Best were not playing well. & continued to not play well in all of the losses this year.
Professor Genius wrote: » Joe stymied them completely . It was impossible to overcome his micro management by all accounts. Disaster by process
AbusesToilets wrote: » The aspect I always find puzzling, is how such experienced players are incapable of recognizing when something isn't working, and adjusting on the fly. The team was almost perfect, in terms of experience and caps, when compared to other successful WC sides. Multiple champions throughout the team. Yet unable to adjust and overcome adversity on the field. If your plan is predicated on an ideal scenario unfolding, then you've already set yourself up for failure. Did they not train for contingencies, or what to do if their game plan was being stymied?
Deleted User wrote: » I see the glee crew are back. Jog on lads, cop onto yourselves.
Jump_In_Jack wrote: » Just reading up on Nucifora's comments, may be covered here already but I found this bit very interesting in the Belfast Telegraph yesterday: "He said the coaches had taken the decision to try and get 10-15 per cent more from the existing game-plan rather than try to evolve their style of play to encompass more offloading and effective counter-attacking. While he said that evolution represented a risk, he believes in hindsight that it was worth going with. The former Australia hooker said the coaches had got their preparation and strategy for Ireland's pivotal opening matches against Scotland and Japan wrong. They had, he revealed, put all of their eggs in the Scotland basket and, having performed brilliantly in that opening encounter, they couldn't replicate their efforts against the host nation. Indeed, he confirmed that they had underestimated Jamie Joseph's side's capacity to perform as well as they did and suffered a shock defeat that damaged them mentally and put them on course for the All Blacks in a quarter-final." So basically, by going even more detailed in their existing game plan, (Best also mentioned overloading players with information), instead of playing more intuitively with more freedom to attack and play heads-up rugby. Underestimating Japan, not rotating the team enough despite having 6 days to recover while Japan had 8 days to recover after an easier match. Mentally wrecked after that shock loss and then not believing they could beat new Zealand. Best's comments that they were overloaded on the day of the New Zealand match giving rise to too much tension the day of the match. It all sounds very plausible, as good as Joe is at developing a detailed game plan, if the players can't absorb all the detail and feel overwhelmed, it's overkill. And the squad wasn't rotated after the Scotland match, for all the talk about depth, this one was a huge mistake that derailed the whole campaign. And the players couldn't relax and conserve their energy on the day of the new Zealand match as they were being bombarded with further information. Looking at the two team sheets between Scotland and Japan matches, The backs were changed a bit with injuries and injured players returning. but the pack did an immense job against Scotland, and not one change 6 days later. Best played the full 80 against Scotland (injury to Van der Flier meant Scannell had to cover him), and started again against Japan. Ryan played 80 in both matches. Van der Flier played 73 against Scotland and 80 against Japan. Stander played 80 in both matches. Hopefully this is a lesson for future campaigns. The Scotland match was perfectly executed, but then the planning for the Japan fell down, failing to recognise the value in rotating the squad. Best should have been on the bench or fully rested against Japan. Kleyn should have started Tighthead Lock instead of Ryan against Japan. Beirne and Ruddock should have started in the back row against Japan instead of O'Mahony and Stander, especially with O'Mahony coming straight back in from concussion after Conan injured his foot, and Stander going the full 80 against Scotland and needing him to do it again 6 days later. My suspicion is that the coaches didn't trust that the subs knew the game plan well enough, because individually the subs are very good players, should have been no doubt about their ability, and the game plan shouldn't have been so complicated to begin with.
Shefwedfan wrote: » Surprised you have another post on how terrible Joe is Now your just making stuff up....it is clear the squad had a good relationship with Joe, just look at players like POC who wasn’t a fan prior to ireland job. I haven’t seen a single retired player from any province bad mouth him No idea what your going on about the club game, at the time it was seen as a huge positive that Joe would attend these events, is known to have done events on the cheap and the organiser make a donation to charity instead Joe is gone, so maybe we can give it a rest with the Joe bashing????
The Lost Sheep wrote: » Ryan would have stayed if given offer that was good enough.
Niallof9 wrote: » Yeah you'll get some flak for this post, but only yesterday Jackman was talking about how brands get damaged quite easily in the coaching World. More in regards to ex players becoming coaches. But Joe i think needs to get back in the game as quickly as possible. Brendan Fanning had a great article on Joe's tenure. Not as rosy as everyone thinks. Knowing people who know him, like Sexton on the pitch, the man is not to be trifled with. This was easily observed pre match in the aviva as players hit rucking bags. He can be a very scary man at times. Just like Jono, who lads in Marys quickly found out when they started training with a then 18 year old. Brendan Fanning, a close observer of the club game, reckoned Joe was building his brand by going to clubs, doing the circuit, i mean Schmidt must have spoken at my clubs match lunches at least 4 or 5 times. The book is probably part of that. His record though speaks for itself. He has trophies coming out his ears. that's essential. But on top of that he built alot of goodwill with rugby people throughout the land. I mean with his Mullingar background, it makes sense he liked the club game. For me its Farrell who has to be careful. If it goes badly for him, i don't think there is another head coach role for him. While i'm told he will play an exciting game, and loves an offload, the more we see the silence and all this afters, i just can't believe we've gone with somebody who hasn't been a head coach before as well as having been tainted by two failed World Cups. I can't wait for the Six Nations to roll around so all this can be put to bed once and for all. If Farrell picks on form, which means no Murray, no Kearney etc, then maybe i'll be more positive.
tototoe wrote: » Might be a bit strong, but for sure the Joe brand is badly damaged. The truth is slowly trickling out but some of the blind faithful still can't see it. Whoever advised him on the timing of his book release should resign. Where he got the time to write a book in a world cup year is anyone's guess. He had one job, and seems to have made a mess of the ending. In Joe we trust..bla bla bla Will be very interesting to see what Farrell does, more of the same is not an option.
connemara man wrote: » You definitely can't say theres been success at women's level, maybe in playing numbers but having to qualify for the next world cup is a huge step backwards And player's are moving to England for better game time and coaching
Shefwedfan wrote: » Has he? The Leinster academy and school system was already in place when he arrived. Most of the players in the team now got picked out by Joe at youth and brought up via the system by Joe(Larmour, Ryan etc)
Outside of Leinster the other provinces have struggled to produce players for the Irish team. He doesn't seem to have done anything to resolve these issues.
Ok he was involved with the Carbery move but other players seem to have decided to move on their own. He failed to stop players like Madigan/Zebo/D Ryan moving abroad
Players like Farrell, Addison & Haley all mention Joe when discussing about moving to Ireland. C Farrell especially as Jackman said Joe was always on the phone looking for updates etc The womens 15's game has been a disaster. He could claim the men's 7's has been a success. I dont know enough about the womens 7's to comment
[Deleted User] wrote: » I see the glee crew are back. Jog on lads, cop onto yourselves.
Buer wrote: » Glad we agree.
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