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Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

[Deleted User]

Continued from here
https://touch.boards.ie/thread/2057953711/251
All Ireland Senior XV related talk here.

MOD: Bear in mind this thread is starting during the World Cup window and the zero tolerance policy is in force. Trolling will be rewarded with an instant ban. For the duration of the tournament any mention of Zebo in this thread will not be permitted, it is just dragging current Ireland squad talk off topic.

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Dubinusa

Reading what Best has said is very interesting. A peak into the mindset and the roles everyone plays. One question I think should be asked is how do a side that has been together for so long(core group), suddenly lose the plot. How after 6 years of J.S, does the same pre match routine become so vital and choreographed?
Why would it not be repetitive each match? It seems to me like they spent the time designing a plan that they didn't or couldn't perfect! It's like they are writing a thesis or designing a building and they got lost somewhere in between. I would say that it's possible that there was too much planning and every possible scenario was mapped out. Except the team couldn't get going or get any type of foothold against the kiwis. Interesting read all the same.

Dubinusa

Peek, stupid autocorrect

Dubinusa

The42 has some articles also. Nucifora quite blunt about the year. In a nutshell blame can assigned anywhere. So, where does the buck stop? The postmortem is something I didn't envision last year. I thought we'd bow out at the sf's.
It's telling to me that Erasmus, took a severely underperforming Boks from the ****house to the penthouse in 18 months. How did he do it? Is he that much better than Schmidt?
It's baffling. We do an autopsy, Rassie rolls up his sleeves and gets it done! 18 months! Holy mother of God, we hired the wrong man? Would Rassie do better as our head coach?
It's an intriguing?

Burkie1203

Shefwedfan wrote: »

So the big question is wha has David Nucifora done in the time he was hired?

Upset Ulster.

Beechwoodspark

Irish times article this morning reporting on Rory best comments at an event last night worth reading.

Rory has given more detail about what went wrong in Japan in 1 article than Schmidt has in his full book

Buer

Shefwedfan wrote: »

So the big question is wha has David Nucifora done in the time he was hired?

His remit goes way beyond the senior team. He has overseen huge success at underage, womens and provincial levels. His involvement in player development and deployment of resources has been unprecedented despite taking huge criticism at the time from many. History will show him to have done a huge amount for Irish rugby at multiple levels.

Burkie1203

Peyper.

https://twitter.com/Murray_Kinsella/status/1202311947720548359?s=19

[Deleted User]

Buer wrote: »

His remit goes way beyond the senior team. He has overseen huge success at underage, womens and provincial levels. His involvement in player development and deployment of resources has been unprecedented despite taking huge criticism at the time from many. History will show him to have done a huge amount for Irish rugby at multiple levels.

You definitely can't say theres been success at women's level, maybe in playing numbers but having to qualify for the next world cup is a huge step backwards

And player's are moving to England for better game time and coaching

Buer

connemara man wrote: »

You definitely can't say theres been success at women's level, maybe in playing numbers but having to qualify for the next world cup is a huge step backwards

And player's are moving to England for better game time and coaching

I suppose we can't say that for definite but overall, there has been a relatively solid level of performance up until last season. Only once in his 5 years have the women's team finished outside the top 3 in the 6N (2019) including winning the title once.

We're historically way behind France and England at that level in terms of funding and playing numbers so it was always going to be an extremely difficult area to be consistently successful in. We made the semi finals of the first World Cup he was involved in but 2018 was a complete disaster which is acknowledged by all.

JJJackal

Dubinusa wrote: »

The42 has some articles also. Nucifora quite blunt about the year. In a nutshell blame can assigned anywhere. So, where does the buck stop? The postmortem is something I didn't envision last year. I thought we'd bow out at the sf's.
It's telling to me that Erasmus, took a severely underperforming Boks from the ****house to the penthouse in 18 months. How did he do it? Is he that much better than Schmidt?
It's baffling. We do an autopsy, Rassie rolls up his sleeves and gets it done! 18 months! Holy mother of God, we hired the wrong man? Would Rassie do better as our head coach?
It's an intriguing?

Rassie started at one of the lowest ebbs in SA rugby. Brought back players who were previously excluded. Played a simple brand of rugby.

Got a favourable WC draw - lost to New Zealand, then beat Japan, Wales, England (Title); as opposed to England who had Australia, New Zealand and SA (although didnt have to play France in groups)

Niallof9

Dubinusa wrote: »

Reading what Best has said is very interesting. A peak into the mindset and the roles everyone plays. One question I think should be asked is how do a side that has been together for so long(core group), suddenly lose the plot. How after 6 years of J.S, does the same pre match routine become so vital and choreographed?
Why would it not be repetitive each match? It seems to me like they spent the time designing a plan that they didn't or couldn't perfect! It's like they are writing a thesis or designing a building and they got lost somewhere in between. I would say that it's possible that there was too much planning and every possible scenario was mapped out. Except the team couldn't get going or get any type of foothold against the kiwis. Interesting read all the same.

Well exactly what many critics who stuck their head out in print and radio said, and posters on here said and were shouted down for it as bitter trolls.Best as captain has basically confirmed that the environment became far too micro managed and basically had fallen apart at that stage whihc was evident in body language even in the Japan game.

Nucifora also saying Farrell isn't tainted by it. He 100 per cent is

I feel satisified now at least, that most of our correct analysis, has been sort of confirmed by the captain and DOR, who is loyal to Joe, which is part of the issue they were all too afraid to speak up. In comparison to an SA side with similar tactics, maybe the Saffers are just blunt. I mean i work with similar Dutch people, who's bluntness comes across as rudeness. Maybe we just pussyfooted around, as typical Irish people. And anyway South Africa offloaded more times than we did, they were arguably more expansive.

thomond2006

What was the IRFU Performance Director up to during this period?

It's all well and good speaking in hindsight.

[Deleted User]

You'd wonder if the issue with micro-management, which clearly was a problem as Best is saying so explicitly, is that when plan A didn't work the team just didn't really know what to do then. Could explain why we looked so turgid most of the time.

I also wonder what happened to Schmidt. Did he see the end of his Ireland tenure coming and just need to take more and more and more control as he went? I don't buy this notion the players switched off because Schmidt was leaving, that's a crock of ****e.

thomond2006 wrote: »

What was the IRFU Performance Director up to during this period?

Do you reckon he should have been in micromanaging as well?

Niallof9

Interested Observer wrote: »

You'd wonder if the issue with micro-management, which clearly was a problem as Best is saying so explicitly, is that when plan A didn't work the team just didn't really know what to do then. Could explain why we looked so turgid most of the time.

I also wonder what happened to Schmidt. Did he see the end of his Ireland tenure coming and just need to take more and more and more control as he went? I don't buy this notion the players switched off because Schmidt was leaving, that's a crock of ****e.

Do you reckon he should have been in micromanaging as well?

So how do you explain a World Class coach such as Ferguson stating he'd never have announced his leaving if he'd known the affect. Its not a crock of ****e. Different teams have different setups and cultures. Ours was clearly a cult of Joe, (as was Fergie) who is a brilliant coach, but i mean the players didn't jokingly refer to it as camp scmhidt for the craic. they avoided him in hotel corridors etc. thats not great at all. Maybe him announcing him leaving had some subconcious effect. Sports physiology is a complex beast. Gatland was a hands off coach, so maybe it didn't affect Wales as much. Fanning and others, which Gatland basically confirmed said how wound up Joe would get over Wales or leaks or that sort of stuff. Welsh assistants told people in the Irish camp that Gats wouldn't give a **** about such trivial stuff. Different cultures.

I mean you're not alone in your thinking. But loads of other stuff was pointed out as a "crock of ****" on here, and we've now seen most of it was an accurate analysis.

I mean look at Hansen, maybe the same thing happened. But he too was more hands off. The All Blacks don't rely on one man to build the culture..

“Doubt is an uncomfortable condition, but certainty is a ridiculous one.”
― Voltaire

there was a certain comfort in Joe's ideas, a certainty in its execution. Then doubt creeped in.

Who knows

irishbucsfan

Buer wrote: »

I suppose we can't say that for definite but overall, there has been a relatively solid level of performance up until last season. Only once in his 5 years have the women's team finished outside the top 3 in the 6N (2019) including winning the title once.

We're historically way behind France and England at that level in terms of funding and playing numbers so it was always going to be an extremely difficult area to be consistently successful in. We made the semi finals of the first World Cup he was involved in but 2018 was a complete disaster which is acknowledged by all.

Nucifora and in particular one compatriot he brought with him has been a disaster for women’s XVs rugby in Ireland. We’re going backwards while others are moving forwards. Any step forwards are done through amateurs dragging a supposed professional body kicking and screaming.

The captain of the national team had to organise a ****ing protest to counter some of the lies that were being peddled about the development of the game! Not sure how much worse a sign you can get!

Anyway it’s probably not a good place to discuss it, I’m closer to it than I’d like to be to talk ****e about it on the internet, but the more you know about it the worse and worse it gets. It’s about as much an afterthought as it could be for Nucifora and that group.

Outside of that I think he has generally done very well with a few rumours of missteps here and there which is probably par for the course in such an unstructured and unique position.

aloooof

Niallof9 wrote: »

Well exactly what many critics who stuck their head out in print and radio said, and posters on here said and were shouted down for it as bitter trolls.

It's very easy to criticise after-the-fact. I might be able to take this more seriously if you had been on this forum suggesting as much yourself. But you weren't.

Your first post in all of 2018 and 2019 was the morning after the Japanese result. Prior to that, your previous most recent post was in 2017, telling us that Earls wasn't a Schmidt favourite.

Buer

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Nucifora and in particular one compatriot he brought with him has been a disaster for women’s XVs rugby in Ireland. We’re going backwards while others are moving forwards. Any step forwards are done through amateurs dragging a supposed professional body kicking and screaming.

The captain of the national team had to organise a ****ing protest to counter some of the lies that were being peddled about the development of the game! Not sure how much worse a sign you can get!

Glad we agree.

Niallof9

aloooof wrote: »

It's very easy to criticise after-the-fact. I might be able to take this more seriously if you had been on this forum suggesting as much yourself. But you weren't.

Your first post in all of 2018 and 2019 was the morning after the Japanese result. Prior to that, your previous most recent post was in 2017, telling us that Earls wasn't a Schmidt favourite.

Sorry but i was in a different guise. I couldn't take some of the stuff here so quit. I have been highly critical of Schmidt since the Argentina QF, probably even the championship wins when it ws clear we weren't getting the Joe of Leinster. when it was clear that our style would never ever win a World Cup. Anyway my first post wasn't 2018 so stop spreading untruths. I was highly critical of Joe's constant McFadden and Kearney selections and copped a fair amount of stick.

In fairness in that period one thing he did do was start backing other options and build depth. So it can't be used as a real stick to beat him with.

aloooof

Niallof9 wrote: »

Anyway my first post wasn't 2018 so stop spreading untruths.

Where did I say it was? Who's spreading untruth's now.

molloyjh

Buer wrote: »

His remit goes way beyond the senior team. He has overseen huge success at underage, womens and provincial levels. His involvement in player development and deployment of resources has been unprecedented despite taking huge criticism at the time from many. History will show him to have done a huge amount for Irish rugby at multiple levels.

With the exception of the womens XVs game I'd agree with all of the above. He's had an overwhelmingly positive influence on Irish rugby on the whole. Made some mistakes, could have done better in some areas, but then how many of us have been 100% perfect in everything theyve done?

leakyboots

Refreshing to see a player (even if recently retired) speak his mind so freely.

Shefwedfan

molloyjh wrote: »

With the exception of the womens XVs game I'd agree with all of the above. He's had an overwhelmingly positive influence on Irish rugby on the whole. Made some mistakes, could have done better in some areas, but then how many of us have been 100% perfect in everything theyve done?

Has he?

The Leinster academy and school system was already in place when he arrived. Most of the players in the team now got picked out by Joe at youth and brought up via the system by Joe(Larmour, Ryan etc).

Outside of Leinster the other provinces have struggled to produce players for the Irish team. He doesn't seem to have done anything to resolve these issues.

Ok he was involved with the Carbery move but other players seem to have decided to move on their own.

He failed to stop players like Madigan/Zebo/D Ryan moving abroad

Players like Farrell, Addison & Haley all mention Joe when discussing about moving to Ireland. C Farrell especially as Jackman said Joe was always on the phone looking for updates etc

The womens 15's game has been a disaster.

He could claim the men's 7's has been a success. I dont know enough about the womens 7's to comment

Dubinusa

Best and his opinion and analysis is refreshing. The pathway for Irish coaches must be made. He's right, an accent from another place should not be the end all. Ultimately. Nucifora should be creating a pathway for Irish coaches. We don't really have many! R.O.G and Jackman and others went abroad. The amount of coaches that are Irish in the game is pathetic.
I do think Nucifora has done well. He's tried to get more interprovincial player swaps and has put the 7's on the map. These must be commended. It's a step in the right direction, imo.

Sabre0001

Coincidentally, Jackman was interviewed about the career of coaching. Doesn't sound that tempting: https://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/an-unbelievably-unstable-way-of-making-a-living-why-irish-rugbys-biggest-stars-are-turning-away-from-coaching-38753307.html

Professor Genius

Niallof9 wrote: »

Well exactly what many critics who stuck their head out in print and radio said, and posters on here said and were shouted down for it as bitter trolls.Best as captain has basically confirmed that the environment became far too micro managed and basically had fallen apart at that stage whihc was evident in body language even in the Japan game.

Nucifora also saying Farrell isn't tainted by it. He 100 per cent is

I feel satisified now at least, that most of our correct analysis, has been sort of confirmed by the captain and DOR, who is loyal to Joe, which is part of the issue they were all too afraid to speak up. In comparison to an SA side with similar tactics, maybe the Saffers are just blunt. I mean i work with similar Dutch people, who's bluntness comes across as rudeness. Maybe we just pussyfooted around, as typical Irish people. And anyway South Africa offloaded more times than we did, they were arguably more expansive.

Schmidt now being called out as the busted flush and charlatan he allowed himself to develop into in 2019. He’s been scalded out of it the past few weeks.

JJJackal

Dubinusa wrote: »

Best and his opinion and analysis is refreshing. The pathway for Irish coaches must be made. He's right, an accent from another place should not be the end all. Ultimately. Nucifora should be creating a pathway for Irish coaches. We don't really have many! R.O.G and Jackman and others went abroad. The amount of coaches that are Irish in the game is pathetic.
I do think Nucifora has done well. He's tried to get more interprovincial player swaps and has put the 7's on the map. These must be commended. It's a step in the right direction, imo.

I think there are alot of Irish coaches:

3 in Pro 14
4 in English premiership
At least 1 in top 14 (couldnt find an easy to access list)

Not a bad number really

Jump_In_Jack

I read Best's comments, and it really didn't come off as a criticism of the coaches, it came off as a criticism of the players leadership group, I take that to mean Best himself, Sexton, O'Mahony and any of the senior players such as Healy, Murray, Earls, Kearney, perhaps also Henderson.

Those players would have been listened to if they had gathered together and told the coaches to give them some breathing space.

I think Best is very honest here, he's basically saying that they all were accountable and in coming out with that fact it might help future Ireland squads to learn from their mistake.

He also mentioned complacency creeping into the preparation due to overconfidence after 2018, which is a more difficult one to figure out seeing as the stakes were so high, but it may have accounted for a tiny element of the change in performance.

The major criticism I picked up was not rotating the squad enough after the Scotland match, given the 6 day turnaround, the age of some of the players, the heat, and the travel, not to mention the stress of delivering a performance back to back.

In hindsight I'd bet that Schmidt would have freshened up his 23 for the Japan match a bit more, I felt at the time that it was too big of an ask and unfortunately now according to Best it seems that was the case.

If we had beaten Japan it would have made the rest of the pool matches more relaxed and would have had a better chance against South Africa as we no doubt had planned for that all year.
Playing New Zealand in the quarters was not part of the plan and I think that was part of the mental issues Schmidt alluded to.

tototoe

Professor Genius wrote: »

Schmidt now being called out as the busted flush and charlatan he allowed himself to develop into in 2019. He’s been scalded out of it the past few weeks.

Might be a bit strong, but for sure the Joe brand is badly damaged. The truth is slowly trickling out but some of the blind faithful still can't see it.

Whoever advised him on the timing of his book release should resign. Where he got the time to write a book in a world cup year is anyone's guess. He had one job, and seems to have made a mess of the ending.

In Joe we trust..bla bla bla

Will be very interesting to see what Farrell does, more of the same is not an option.

[Deleted User]

I see the glee crew are back.

Jog on lads, cop onto yourselves.

Shefwedfan

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

The major criticism I picked up was not rotating the squad enough after the Scotland match, given the 6 day turnaround, the age of some of the players, the heat, and the travel, not to mention the stress of delivering a performance back to back.

In hindsight I'd bet that Schmidt would have freshened up his 23 for the Japan match a bit more, I felt at the time that it was too big of an ask and unfortunately now according to Best it seems that was the case.

I mentioned swapping the front liners and bringing in a new front row etc for Japan game and it was laughed about here....

I mentioned the humity and again people laughed about it here.....comments like Ireland has higher humidity

So people looking back in hindsight now saying he should have swapped the front liners had a different opinion at the time.

Not saying you did, but it was a discussion on here