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Child Item

Neighbor complaining about my instrument

Jenneke87

I would appreciate your advice.

I moved into a new appartement this august. It's a fantastic place but (quite) noisy in the sense that you can hear sounds coming from the surrounding apartments. I can hear toilets being flushed, you can hear people walking, etc.

Now I play a musical instrument, the harp. I have two of them, one larger harp, one smaller. The neighbor living below me has come up twice now to complain about the noise she hears when I play. The first time when she came to complain I was playing the larger harp and after, bought a thick rubber mat for isolation, so now I always place the harps on a thick mat, over that I pull the rug that's on the floor and that I cover with a blanket or towels, and I never play any later than 21:00.

So today, I practiced between 19:00-20:00 and she came to complain. She said she could hear the noise through her entire house and even when she turns up the T.V, she still can't drown out the sounds. I find this difficult to believe since a harp doesn't produce a very loud sound, you'd have to play with quite a force in order to get such a sound out of it. I was playing the smaller harp this time, which produces less sound, but she claims it made no difference at all.

She tried to be "reasonable" by saying I can only play on a Monday and Thursday, as she will be home later on those days, or only play for half an hour. I feel like I'm not being unreasonable by practicing an hour and that she can't dictate on which days I can play and on which ones I can't.

I'm starting to feel like a prisoner in my own home and every time I practice I fear she'll come up to complain. So far, there have been no complaints from other neighbors.

I feel like she's overreacting and that hearing sound (within reason) is to be expected but also fear that could turn in a potential nasty fight where even the slightest noise will irritate her. What can/should I do and am I in the wrong here?

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ted1

AulWan wrote: »

The OP's neighbour was there first, it appears the OP only moved in recently, so in my view, she is the one who should be making adaptations, not the neighbours.

That argument doesn’t hold up. The city is in a state of constant change

petros1980

AulWan wrote: »

A harp being played for an hour every day is not what I would consider as occupants going about their daily life.

Who cares what you'd consider it.....(You're user name holds up by the way :pac::pac:)

Fact is that people do all sorts of things that make noise as part of their daily lives. From hoovering, to watching TV, to singing, to playing instruments, to playing with children etc etc.

Any apartment I've lived in has stipulated no excessive noise after 11pm. So complaining about a harp being played at 7pm???

Away and feck off

AulWan

petros1980 wrote: »

Who cares what you'd consider it.....(You're user name holds up by the way :pac::pac:)

Fact is that people do all sorts of things that make noise as part of their daily lives. From hoovering, to watching TV, to singing, to playing instruments, to playing with children etc etc.

Any apartment I've lived in has stipulated no excessive noise after 11pm. So complaining about a harp being played at 7pm???

Away and feck off

A considerate neighbour would care if they were causing a disturbance to their neighbours, and the OP obviously does care, as she did not just tell her neighbour to "away and feck off" (classy).

Jackman25

chuck eastwood wrote: »

To be honest I see both sides here. My neighbour took up keyboard about 8 years ago (He's still brutal). At first he played in the evenings and we didn't really care because we both worked full time and shifts but when he started playing it after 7.30pm while we had both been up since 4am I called him on it. I simply said we are entitled to peace and quite in our own home in the evenings and could he possibly practice at the weekend or when our cars aren't in the drive. He decided not to be an arse (I'm not saying you are OP) and said yeah no bother. He now plays the very odd evening and I just have to WhatsApp him to say they kids are going to bed and he stops. No big deal.
Also, my wife is starting Bodhrán lessons I two weeks and my 5 year old is going with her. Revenge is the best medicine lol.
On a serious note you are not a prisoner in your own home as you have a choice to play or not, she has no choice but to tolerate it. You're not the victim here even though it is difficult for you to practice

Revenge for what? he seems to have been very sound about it.

AulWan

ted1 wrote: »

That argument doesn’t hold up. The city is in a state of constant change

Tell that to those who are suggesting the OP's elderly neighbour should have to move, when she was living there (probably quite peacefully) before the OP moved in with her harps?

And then suggesting the neighbour should be the one to pay for sound proofing? Ridiculous suggestion.

ncmc

AulWan wrote: »

Tell that to those who are suggesting the OP's elderly neighbour should have to move, when she was living there (probably quite peacefully) before the OP moved in with her harps?

And then suggesting the neighbour should be the one to pay for sound proofing? Ridiculous suggestion.

What if the OP had a baby and in a couple of years a toddler running around? Should the OP have to move because the neighbour was there first and the OP has changed the dynamics by having a baby? You cannot expect to live in an apartment and have zero residual noise. It doesn't matter if things were peaceful for X amount of time, things change, different people move in and out. As long as the OP is being reasonable (which she absolutely is) and making an effort to keep noise to a minimum or at least within social hours, then the neighbour is going to have to deal with it.

Also those saying a harp would create vibrations, I'm no expert, but surely a harp, played on a mat wouldn't cause vibrations that would reverberate down to the apartment below. I can see how it would happen with the sub woofers mentioned earlier, but surely not a harp.

AulWan

ncmc wrote: »

What if the OP had a baby and in a couple of years a toddler running around? Should the OP have to move because the neighbour was there first and the OP has changed the dynamics by having a baby? You cannot expect to live in an apartment and have zero residual noise. It doesn't matter if things were peaceful for X amount of time, things change, different people move in and out. As long as the OP is being reasonable (which she absolutely is) and making an effort to keep noise to a minimum or at least within social hours, then the neighbour is going to have to deal with it.

Also those saying a harp would create vibrations, I'm no expert, but surely a harp, played on a mat wouldn't cause vibrations that would reverberate down to the apartment below. I can see how it would happen with the sub woofers mentioned earlier, but surely not a harp.

But she doesn't have a baby, so lets stick with the matter at hand, shall we?

If you want to make comparisons, make like with like. What if it was heavy metal thrash music the OP was playing for an hour everyday, instead of a harp? Would you then be okay with it? Up to 11pm at night?

Like hell you would.

ncmc

AulWan wrote: »

But she doesn't have a baby, so lets stick with the matter at hand, shall we?

If you want to make comparisons, make like with like. What if it was heavy metal thrash music the OP was playing for an hour everyday, instead of a harp? Would you then be okay with it? Up to 11pm at night?

Like hell you would.

Are you seriously comparing playing heavy thrash music at 11pm with playing a harp at 7pm?

One is loud, one is quiet

One is late at night, one is early evening

One is anti social, one is not

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

AulWan

ncmc wrote: »

Also those saying a harp would create vibrations, I'm no expert, but surely a harp, played on a mat wouldn't cause vibrations that would reverberate down to the apartment below. I can see how it would happen with the sub woofers mentioned earlier, but surely not a harp.

As you said, you're no expert. But harps are not quiet, and the sound deeply resonates.

Its irrelevant whether you or any other poster thinks a harp is a pleasant sound in comparison to any other type of music.

What matters is the neighbour is disturbed enough by the OP practicing that she went to the trouble of complaining about it (more then once), so the OP has to deal with it, and not just ignore it.

Also, South Dublin County Council categorise anything that causes a constant disturbance to a neighbour as anti-social behaviour.

ncmc

AulWan wrote: »

As you said, you're no expert. But harps are not quiet, and the sound deeply resonates.

I'm no expert, but presumably the OP is and she said in her very first post that it isn't at all loud.

For every neighbour with a genuine gripe about noise, there's a cantankerous trouble maker who will be knocking on your door if they hear as much as a pin drop.

AulWan

Sound travels. Just because the OP does not think its loud does not mean it isn't, especially in the apartment below.

khaldrogo

Don't open the door....... problem solved

<Mod snip - no need to quote entire OP>

LegacyUser

I hate saying this but I can see your neighbours side, I think living in apartments everybody is expected to have more consideration of others who live relatively close.

Moving into an apartment, in my view means you shouldnâ€™t play loud instruments, have loud pets, have loud parties etc.

woodchuck

Mod note:

That's enough off topic bickering. Everyone is reminded to keep things on topic and only post if you have advice for the OP.

@petros1980 and AulWan - if you keep insulting each other on here, you'll be getting cards.

LegacyUser

Like many OP I can see both sides. Apartment leaving can be tricky and Irish ones tend to be poorly made.

OP you have three options:

Bend over do what the neighbour asks and only play at times she deems ok. honestly this opens a can of worms depending on the neighbour and demands so I'd avoid.

Be rude and just ignore her. Not nice and she may report the nose to the landlord or council and you'd end up with a really nasty atmosphere in the building

Or try and work with them. As someone suggested earlier have someone come play while you go down and listen and see what the volume is like (or you play and have a friend or family member go down). You'll either find that she's being overly sensitive in which case tell her you'll be respectively but you are within your rights to practice in your own home. Or you'll find there is something odd up like maybe you've placed the harp in a spot that is amplifying the sound and you just need to move it somewhere else in the apartment.

But you may find that it is making an awful loud noise and in that case it would be the build of the apartment and not a lot you can do but reduce the amount you play until you can move some where more suitable. the only way you'll know is to go listen for yourself. Take a sound meter with you if you can as all the landlord/council care about is doesn't it breach the law on sound level.

B0jangles

I have a lot of sympathy for both parties here - OP it's your home, and you obviously love playing the harp and want/need to practice your music somewhere.

If I was the neighbour though, and if it's like the kind of music practice I'm familiar with I really do think I'd be driven nuts - it's not like music on the radio playing - its scales, warmups, playing the same piece, or the same short section of a piece over and over and over again in slightly different ways to get the fingering sorted etc. That's maddening to listen to.

(obviously if you're playing through full pieces the above doesn't apply

)

cloudatlas

Can you get a friend who plays to come in and play, and go down to the woman's apartment to hear what it's like. There needs to be some middle ground she's given you two days but you need more than two can you negotiate 4 days and stipulate particular times, you shouldn't pay for expensive equipment but it would be nice if this could end amicably.

MartyMcFly84

Is there an Electric Harp an option that would could play with an amp and plug in earphones?

I did this while in college on an electric guitar. Not sure if you can do the same with a Harp?

pwurple

There aren't enough harpists in the world, well done to you for being one. We've got all sorts of instruments being practiced in my house by the kids, brass, wind, keyboard, strings and we just shut the door if it's too loud. Yes you can hear it if you're downstairs, but it's just background noise. She'd know all about it if it was a brass band playing I can tell you!

You cannot live in an apartment and expect silence at all times, she can go live in the woods. Earplugs, playing other music, turning up her TV are all alternatives open to her.

seamus

AulWan wrote: »

A harp being played for an hour every day is not what I would consider as occupants going about their daily life.

We'd have to disagree on that one.

Plenty of people turn the radio or TV on and leave it on all day. A harp is no louder than that.

A person practicing a musical instrument for an hour during normal daytime hours, is very much "going about their daily life".

AulWan

seamus wrote: »

We'd have to disagree on that one.

Plenty of people turn the radio or TV on and leave it on all day. A harp is no louder than that.

A person practicing a musical instrument for an hour during normal daytime hours, is very much "going about their daily life".

Yes, we will. I don't know where people are getting the idea the a harp is a quiet instrument, especially a larger one. It's not. I do have experience of harps.

Anyway, saying any more is just going in circles, so I'll leave it there.

Fair play to the op at least for not just dismissing her elderly neighbour out of hand, as so many think she should.

sammyjo90

I can hear the lad downstairs from me sneeze. And the woman beside me coughing.. Do i tell ask them to stop sneezing/coughing so loudly?no I dont..living in apartment means you hear stuff you dont want to..

cloudatlas wrote: »

Can you get a friend who plays to come in and play, and go down to the woman's apartment to hear what it's like. There needs to be some middle ground she's given you two days but you need more than two can you negotiate 4 days and stipulate particular times, you shouldn't pay for expensive equipment but it would be nice if this could end amicably.

Think this is the only thing you can do.
A compromise is needed here. She needs to find something to do/put headphones into the tv when she has agreed you can play.

qwerty13

I wondered as another poster did re what you’re playing. Is it pieces, or is it warm ups, scales, exercises, repeats of snipets of a piece - because I get how that could be maddening.

I’ve heard people say how apartments are often so poorly built that sound carries a lot, but I’m wondering if the sound carries more from an instrument, than say normal tv. I’m no expert, but I wonder do the reverberations carry, especially if the instrument is on the floor directly above your neighbour.

Do you have windows closed when you’re playing? And has she complained about any other noise before this? If not, maybe the sound genuinely is reverberating into her apartment.

If you go for lessons, or know any other players, maybe ask them of their experience re neighbours.

Tbh electric guitar turned up to 11 would wreck my head no matter what time of the day or night it was, but I’ve no idea how a harp compares. Like are you used to it and don’t realise how loud it can be? Or is it a genuinely quiet instrument? I don’t put my tv up very loud, but I know myself that I’ve been surprised at how loud it can seem from upstairs in my place. So maybe the way the sound carries is a big factor.

Cuddlesworth

seamus wrote: »

We'd have to disagree on that one.

Plenty of people turn the radio or TV on and leave it on all day. A harp is no louder than that.

A person practicing a musical instrument for an hour during normal daytime hours, is very much "going about their daily life".

That's a bit of a simplistic way of looking at it. Your talking about two devices, with different level of sound output, operating at different frequency ranges and a different type of sound out of them. A TV will usually have some light background noise and dialog from people. Its part of the reason adverts are so jarring to the ears, they tend to carry a lot of background noise into the foreground. I mean, there is a entire industry built around sound proofing for that reason, its a crap shoot without proper mass and isolation.

The OP could look into some options of reducing the reverb into the walls but the reality is, you usually just reduce the level of the noise, not stop the noise itself.

Calypso Realm

Jenneke87 wrote: »

So today, I practiced between 19:00-20:00 and she came to complain. She said she could hear the noise through her entire house and even when she turns up the T.V, she still can't drown out the sounds. I find this difficult to believe since a harp doesn't produce a very loud sound, you'd have to play with quite a force in order to get such a sound out of it. I was playing the smaller harp this time, which produces less sound, but she claims it made no difference at all.

This is incredibly flawed logic! If she couldn't hear it she wouldn't have approached you to complain!

In addition, while you like the sound this lady evidently does not since it's annoying her!

Assuming you have wooden floors, have you thought about carpeting or purchasing some thick rugs? Or playing in a different room in the apartment? Or both.

LegacyUser

Calypso Realm wrote: »

This is incredibly flawed logic! If she couldn't hear it she wouldn't have approached you to complain!

In addition, while you like the sound this lady evidently does not since it's annoying her!

Assuming you have wooden floors, have you thought about carpeting or purchasing some thick rugs? Or playing in a different room in the apartment? Or both.

According to the OP's first post: "bought a thick rubber mat for isolation, so now I always place the harps on a thick mat, over that I pull the rug that's on the floor and that I cover with a blanket or towels, and I never play any later than 21:00"

The OP has made a reasonable effort to reduce the sound so it's not like they are just saying the neighbour should just put up with it. As several people have said the OP should ask someone to play the harp while they listen in the neighbours apartment, thats the only way to see if they (the neighbour) are being overly sensitive or if there is an issue that is causing the sound to be amplified. It could be something simple like moving the location they practice to another part of the apartment or it could be a build issue with the apartments which will leave the OP with the option to try and fix it or not play the harp in the apartment or move.

Apartment living means you will always hear some sounds and that doesn't suit some people. The wording of the EPA Act says a noise that is ‘so loud, so continuous, so repeated, of such duration or pitch or occurring at such times as to give reasonable cause for annoyance to a person in any premises in the neighbourhood or to a person lawfully using any public place’ so ask yourself OP if the harp playing could be viewed as such.

skallywag

This is a tough one. I have spent many years living in a flat in various locations, and on all of those experiences the sound isolation was terrible. I could hear TVs from my neighbours, and they could hear me talking to my friends. Even the sound of someone walking around in loud shoes above you could do your head in.

I play a lot of music myself (loud guitar music) and the only way you can really do so is getting a stand alone type place, which I know is a lot easier said than done.

ILoveYourVibes

MartyMcFly84 wrote: »

Is there an Electric Harp an option that would could play with an amp and plug in earphones?

I did this while in college on an electric guitar. Not sure if you can do the same with a Harp?

There are electrics harps and also electric acoustic harps.

To buy a new harp though is very expensive.

What about a harp mute OP?

They are not expensive ..you might need more than one for the whole harp though is it a concert harp?

I am sure you can find one in a music store ..or online.

I know you can get violin mutes that totally silence the noise or simply soften it greatly.

[Deleted User]

Personal I find it very selfish, why should your neighbours be subjected to your harp music against their will? Its 2019, not 1719. Buy an electric harp and turn the volume down. Even better plug in some headphones and play as loud as you like. Everyone is a winner, simple really.

[Deleted User]

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

There are electrics harps and also electric acoustic harps.

To buy a new harp though is very expensive.

What about a harp mute OP?

They are not expensive ..you might need more than one for the whole harp though is it a concert harp?

I am sure you can find one in a music store ..or online.

I know you can get violin mutes that totally silence the noise or simply soften it greatly.

It may be expensive but I think it's fair and reasonable to say that is the price you pay if you want to play a harp in an apartment block.