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Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

[Deleted User]

Continued from here
https://touch.boards.ie/thread/2057953711/251
All Ireland Senior XV related talk here.

MOD: Bear in mind this thread is starting during the World Cup window and the zero tolerance policy is in force. Trolling will be rewarded with an instant ban. For the duration of the tournament any mention of Zebo in this thread will not be permitted, it is just dragging current Ireland squad talk off topic.

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Granny15

leakyboots wrote: »

Murray's (starting) place is under a bit of threat. I thought he was superb against Ospreys (who were gash) but wasn't that great against Racing. Good to have the competition at 9. Still not sure about Luke McGrath, boxkicks from the 22 are brutal which is pretty important at international (or any) level - it'd be Marmion or Cooney for me if it's not going to be Murray starting.

At 2 right now I'd go Scannell and Kellegher in that order. Who knows what'll happen Cronin as someone said, he could be the incumbent.

15 shirt is wide open, if Haley continues his form he might be in with a shout, plenty of competition there with Larmour, possibly Conway and others. I'm not too fussed about who it is along as there is a change.

Still a good bit of rugby to be played, next few rounds of the Heineken and interpros could see guys put their hand up or s&&t the bed.

I'm going to be really fascinated with the battle between Addison, Haley and Larmour for 15 shirt. I rate Haley higher than most but think there is not much between all 3.

I think Larmour loses out possibly to Addison for the 6 nations because of his size under high balls however steady he might be and Addison's wide skillset.

I think Haley is a real option for us there despite haters always highlighting statistically his short comings - i think he provides something on the counterattack which ireland have been missing for some time.

[Deleted User]

leakyboots wrote: »

Meant to say, CJ isn't a bad shout for captain. Would think it'll one of him, James Ryan (think he'd be my pick, although maybe another couple of years might be better), Sexton and POM.

I wouldn't personally have much issue with CJ being captain but I think the IRFU might. It would ultimately draw controversy that those involved would rather avoid.

Who will be the next captain will be someone who is highly likely to start and almost certainly be in the 23.

They are generally a player who does a decent amount of media anyway.

They are often a provincial captain or former provincial captain.

Players who fit that bracket would be Henderson, PoM, CJ, Sexton, Murray, Luke McGrath. These players fit all the main criteria albeit Luke obviously has the least definite proximity to the 23.

Taking away the requirement for historical provincial captaincy, the next in line going by their general media presence and proximity to the 23 would be a much bigger pool.

Conway, Aki, Ringrose, Stockdale, Larmour, Furlong, Ryan, Beirne, Kearney, Healy, Henshaw, Jordi, VDF, Farrell.

It's a tough one to call but I'd imagine there are likely clear candidates within the group.

I think it might go to Henderson myself. Best being captain seemed to have such a soothing affect on Awec, I think the IRFU will be happy enough to continue with another Nordie if it keeps the free folk happy.

Paul Smeenus

Wow. If Hendo was made captain ahead of Ryan, I can think of a couple of heads that would explode

Shefwedfan

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Wow. If Hendo was made captain ahead of Ryan, I can think of a couple of heads that would explode

Why?

Henderson is a lion and has captained Ulster before

Is more or less a nailed on starter

[Deleted User]

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Wow. If Hendo was made captain ahead of Ryan, I can think of a couple of heads that would explode

I should have added 'owning Leinster supporters' to the list of desirable criteria above.

Paul Smeenus

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Why?

Henderson is a lion and has captained Ulster before

Is more or less a nailed on starter

Because Henderson was a Lion, but he will never be lionised like Ryan.

Poet/know it etc etc

[Deleted User]

The captain is picked by the squad, or at least it was when Schmidt was in charge and Best was selected. There was an interview with Best I think before the RWC where he talked about it.

Jump_In_Jack

My take on the current Irish Out-half landscape

Regulars:
Jonathan Sexton (Expecting this to be his final 6Nations as the starting 10)
Joey Carbery
Jack Carty
Ross Byrne

Verging on a call up to squad training:
Billy Burns
JJ Hanrahan

Good enough for a call up but way down the pecking order:
Tyler Bleyendaal
Conor Fitzgerald

Not playing enough for a call up:
Bill Johnston
Ciarán Frawley
Angus Curtis

The academy players are all talented but are nowhere near a call up:
Luke Carty (Year 3)
Harry Byrne (Year 2)
Ben Healy (Year 2)
Conor Dean (Year 2)
Bruce Houston (Year 2)
Jake Flannery (Year 1)

Expatriate players:
Johnny McPhillips (Age: 22. Moved from Ulster to Leicester during the summer)
Paddy Jackson (Age: 27. Will never find employment with the IRFU ever again)
Cathal Marsh (Age: 27. Playing in New York)
Noel Reid (Age: 29. Unlikely to return to a province in Ireland at this stage)
Ian Madigan (Age: 30. Unlikely to return to a province in Ireland at this stage)
Ian Keatley (Age: 32. Unlikely to return to a province in Ireland at this stage)

Shefwedfan

Sexton is on contract till the Lions tour, this will not be his last 6 nations unless some of the others kick him out of the jersey, which at the moment is looking unlikely

I would have JJ above Carty and R Byrne at the moment.....hopefully he continues to play like he is

R Byrne is playing well but it is clear the Irish management dont like him so no point keeping him in the mix....it baffles me personally but that seems to be the case.

Jump_In_Jack

New coaches though, so nobody can know for certain yet how they rate all the players.

Assuming Carbery won't get back up to speed by February,
I think for this 6 Nations it will be Sexton at 10 with Carty on the bench,
and one of Byrne, Hanrahan, or Burns in the training squad.
Can't see anyone else featuring outside of that group at the moment, but 3 months from now might be a different story of course.

Granny15

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

My take on the current Irish Out-half landscape

Regulars:
Jonathan Sexton (Expecting this to be his final 6Nations as the starting 10)
Joey Carbery
Jack Carty
Ross Byrne

Verging on a call up to squad training:
Billy Burns
JJ Hanrahan

Good enough for a call up but way down the pecking order:
Tyler Bleyendaal
Conor Fitzgerald

Not playing enough for a call up:
Bill Johnston
Ciarán Frawley
Angus Curtis

The academy players are all talented but are nowhere near a call up:
Luke Carty (Year 3)
Harry Byrne (Year 2)
Ben Healy (Year 2)
Conor Dean (Year 2)
Bruce Houston (Year 2)
Jake Flannery (Year 1)

Expatriate players:
Johnny McPhillips (Age: 22. Moved from Ulster to Leicester during the summer)
Paddy Jackson (Age: 27. Will never find employment with the IRFU ever again)
Noel Reid (Age: 29. Unlikely to return to a province in Ireland at this stage)
Ian Madigan (Age: 30. Unlikely to return to a province in Ireland at this stage)
Ian Keatley (Age: 32. Unlikely to return to a province in Ireland at this stage)

I think Ben Healy and Conor Dean are the most talented of the academy players you have listed (that I know - haven't seen Carty presume he's a brother of Jack or Bruce Heuston).

Would also like to see Hawkshaw at Leinster Acdemy given a few runs out at fly half on the "A's" over the next season or two.

I think we are threadbare and need to bring younger players through in the position with 2 of the 4 regulars category not being up to international standard IMO in Byrne and Carty.

Paul Smeenus

I think Lowry will make the switch back to 10 in the next couple of seasons, once he has more experience.

thebaz

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Wow. If Hendo was made captain ahead of Ryan, I can think of a couple of heads that would explode

mine would , Ryan is a much more consistent performer to Henderson , thought he was very anonymous in last few WC matches .

Former Former

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

Verging on a call up to squad training:
JJ Hanrahan

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I would have JJ above Carty and R Byrne at the moment.....hopefully he continues to play like he is

Are we getting ahead of ourselves a bit here lads? I mean, he played well but it was only one game.

Shefwedfan

Former Former wrote: »

Are we getting ahead of ourselves a bit here lads? I mean, he played well but it was only one game.

From what I have seen he has played well all season

I am not sure why people have such a problem with JJ, any player has a half decent game and they are nailed on to start in the 6 nations. JJ has a decent run at 10 and is playing well and nobody is positive about him.....

I personally think he is hugely underrated. even last season he was MoM in a HC and then next week he got dumped out of the team.

I hope he flourishes under the new management and pushs his way into the Ireland squad and team

[Deleted User]

He's never done it over a consistent period of time. The move to England seems to have been a bit of a disaster, he's been second fiddle to someone else for nearly his whole time at Munster. Maybe this season is it for him and he'll make a breakthrough but I don't think he's deserved to be involved yet and the arc of his career hasn't really suggested he's been hard done by either.

Former Former

Shefwedfan wrote: »

From what I have seen he has played well all season

I am not sure why people have such a problem with JJ, any player has a half decent game and they are nailed on to start in the 6 nations. JJ has a decent run at 10 and is playing well and nobody is positive about him.....

I personally think he is hugely underrated. even last season he was MoM in a HC and then next week he got dumped out of the team.

I hope he flourishes under the new management and pushs his way into the Ireland squad and team

I have absolutely no problem with JJ.

But his entire career is defined by occasional sparks punctuating prolonged periods of mediocrity. The guy is 27, he's been a pro for a long time and has never looked like an international.

One game isn't a decent run. If he can show consistent performances of the required quality, then absolutely he'll get his shot at Ireland.

stephen_n

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Wow. If Hendo was made captain ahead of Ryan, I can think of a couple of heads that would explode

Yours probably

Sanjuro

Aki signs central contract until 2023.

aloooof

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I personally think he is hugely underrated. even last season he was MoM in a HC and then next week he got dumped out of the team.

Carbery came back in after injury. And following the Castres game, he enjoyed his best spell of the season. I've mentioned this before:

...for the next spell of games he was brilliant; his next 4 starts were against Leinster, Connacht, Gloucester and Exeter. We won all 4 and he got MOTM in 2. He went on a run of about 5 games without missing a penalty. Gloucester in particular, he was superb.

Do you think JJ should have been starting these games ahead of Carbery?

Shefwedfan

Former Former wrote: »

I have absolutely no problem with JJ.

But his entire career is defined by occasional sparks punctuating prolonged periods of mediocrity. The guy is 27, he's been a pro for a long time and has never looked like an international.

One game isn't a decent run. If he can show consistent performances of the required quality, then absolutely he'll get his shot at Ireland.

Carty is 27.......I won't say anything else after that :P

EachSmallChime

Fair point about them both being 27. Difference is that Jack only seems to have come good in the last 2 years. I would say that Jack has overachieved to go to the RWC and could go higher. But no one ever expected any of that.

JJ showed incredible potential at such young age and was tipped to be the next big thing. He's had a good professional career but by never playing well consistently over a run of games, has underachieved massively.

Funnily enough, Jack isn't in good form at the minute, so if JJ got a good run over winter, he should definitely get the call up.

Former Former

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Carty is 27.......I won't say anything else after that :P

You could have said...

- Carty has been first choice at his province for a few years now
- Has shown good consistency of performance
- His performances were rewarded by call-up to the national squad.

None of which apply to JJ - but he's exactly what JJ should be aiming for.

Dubinusa

Who knows what the pecking order will be! After Sexton it's a mixed bag. Still don't get why RB is so underrated. His win % is probably higher than the others.
Carberry has not shown much, imo. Carty came out of nowhere and was fantastic last year. Burns is really playing well and RB is still playing well. Sexton will be there until someone usurps him. Fitzgerald looks promising, JJ played well last week, but historically his form is up and down and he can't win the 10 shirt for Munster.
Carty is struggling right now. So, it is up in the air. My guess would be Burns gets capped during the 6nations and Carty is the back up.

Yeah_Right

Dubinusa wrote: »

Stander is a good player. So is Conan. They offer different attributes. Stander can trick the ball all day. Conan is better in a an open type of match!
Neither is close to Billy V, or Coetzee, even Read. I think Conan has more upside. Deegan is a different beast. He's quicker and imo, more of a skilled player. Doris is a strong carrying 8. I think Doris would be more of a Schmidt type of player.
I believe Doris could also be a good 6! I think he'd do better than Deegan at 6. I may be wrong.
Anyway, I don't expect massive change. It will be incremental and hopefully well planned. I would expect a new 15, a new 2 and a possible change at 9. Otherwise it should be the status quo, except Marty Moore, who I think will see game time this 6nations.

I think Deegan is coming along nicely. I thought he looked good last year and better this year. His workrate seems higher this year and he appears to be getting more involved in the grunt work and the tight stuff. Obviously there is still a lot more to work on but he appears to be heading in the right direction.

One thing I noticed in last week's match was that a couple of times he struggled controlling the ball at the base of the scrum. I know this is actually a difficult skill and it is something he needs to work on to be an international no. 8. I hope if he doesn't make the Irish squad, Farrell sits him down and gives him a bunch of work-ons so that he can keep developing.

As for the Doris v Deegan debate; I feel I haven't seen enough of Doris to make a call yet but at the moment I think Deegan is ahead.

Richie_Rich89

I'd like to see a backrow of 6. C.J. Stander, 7. Josh van der Flier, 8. Max Deegan; 20. Peter O'Mahony in the 6N. I think they need to make changes from the POM, JvdF, Stander backrow that just didn't work most of the time.

shootermacg

I'd have no issues with CJ captaining the team. He's pretty unbreakable, so will generally always be available and he's pretty much going to be in the back-row for the foreseeable future at 6 or 8.

Other's may have issues with him playing on an Irish team, but he's here now and he's done as much, if not more, as any other player to deserve it.

Clegg

Will Connors needs to be looked at by Andy Farrel. The guy is starting to match VdF for work rate around the pitch. He tackles everything that moves and carries a lot of slow ball whilst still making metres. He's also dominant in the tackle which is something we've missed since Leavy got injured. On the subject of openside flankers, VDF is in brilliant form as well. He was good at the World Cup and has moved up a level again since returning.

Might need to reintegrate Toner into the side too. He was imperious in the lineout.

tryagain

A lot of players were good at world cup but we need more how can our 4 sides in Europe show so much fight pull on green at WC and do nothing cycle after cycle. Is it to much pressure for our players because we now expect to win we are not underdogs anymore is it a mental thing .

Shefwedfan

tryagain wrote: »

A lot of players were good at world cup but we need more how can our 4 sides in Europe show so much fight pull on green at WC and do nothing cycle after cycle. Is it to much pressure for our players because we now expect to win we are not underdogs anymore is it a mental thing .

They won a Grand Slam in 2018.....

In the last 6 years they have won the 6 nations 3 times, won a tour of Australia, beat NZ twice.....etc etc

Does that count as nothing now?