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ESB eCars pricing introduction

ELM327

System Upgrade

Dear EV Drivers,

To enable us to provide you with some enhanced functionality and a new app, we will be performing a system upgrade this coming Wednesday morning, October 2nd,

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ethernet

graememk wrote: »

What would happen if you stopped the charge and started it again, would it be a new session?

Should hopefully incur the overstay fee or get you booted off the system if a repeat offender:

3. The Service
...
3.4 We shall be entitled to suspend Your Account and/or terminate the Agreement if:
...
3.3.3 You repeatedly avoid the overstay fee as specified in the Price Plan Terms and Conditions, in a clear and unambiguous attempt to lengthen Your charge time, and circumvent the application of the overstay fee by;
3.3.3.1 Stopping an in-progress charge before the overstay fee is due to apply;
3.3.3.2 Starting another charge on the same Charge Point from the same Account within a nominal time period (5 minutes) following the ending of the first charge.

7. Overstay Fees
...
7.2 In general, the application of the overstay fee will be automated. However, we reserve the right to apply this manually and retrospectively should we detect that attempts are being made to circumvent it. We would consider behaviour such as stopping an in-progress charge and starting another one on the same Charge Point from the same Account, with just a token period of inactivity (less than 5 minutes) inbetween to represent an attempt at circumvention.

graememk

ethernet wrote: »

Should hopefully incur the overstay fee or get you booted off the system if a repeat offender:

Figured that would happen... All you need now is 2 accounts. Not saying I'll be doing it, just poking for loopholes

MJohnston

graememk wrote: »

Figured that would happen... All you need now is 2 accounts. Not saying I'll be doing it, just poking for loopholes

After this year, that'd mean you'd be paying an extra €5 a month for each account.

Silent Running

It's a pity that there isn't a system where a car could stay charging after the 45 minutes is up without an overstay charge, as long as there isn't another car waiting. If the charger is going to be left idle there would be an incentive for ecars to keep it busy.

45 minutes isn't really enough for some of the bigger battery cars to get to 80%. On a long journey it might make the difference between one charge stop and two.

Obviously, if there's a car waiting the charger should be freed up as soon as possible to let the other driver on. Even 45 minutes seems too long in this case.

kennethsmyth

McGiver wrote: »

No, it should be per minute. It's very simple. 0.50 perhaps minute or something.

Ok after doing the maths, I agree but not 50cent.

Essentially double (but not quiet as its a mix of kwh and mins) the rate.

If you are paying 29cents per kwh, after 45mins it becomes 29cent per kwh and 29cent per min after 45mins.

If paying 33cent per kwh, after 45mins its 33cent per kwh and 33cent per min after 45mins.

This is simple and easy to understand and will have same effect of the 5euro charge after 45 but push people to leave instead of "I've paid the 5euro now so I'll stay as I'm no longer in a rush"

McGiver

kennethsmyth wrote:

45 mins charge per kwh 5euro charge on 46th min On 61st min the charge per kwh goes up to 50 cents

Too complicated.
45+ mins charge 0.5/min

McGiver

kennethsmyth wrote:

Ok after doing the maths, I agree but not 50cent.

No it must be prohibitively expensive to discourage "I'll squeeze 100% out of it" but not completely prohibitive to the still allow some freedom of choice. If it's too cheap, the charger won't be vacated.

5 eur overstay = 10 min at 0.50/min.
Who wants to stay can stay a bit longer but it's costly.

Flat overstay fee is nonsensical because the person can stay there for 30 extra minutes or longer.

kennethsmyth

McGiver wrote: »

No it must be prohibitively expensive to discourage "I'll squeeze 100% out of it" but not completely prohibitive to the still allow some freedom of choice. If it's too cheap, the charger won't be vacated.

5 eur overstay = 10 min at 0.50/min.
Who wants to stay can stay a bit longer but it's costly.

Flat overstay fee is nonsensical because the person can stay there for 30 extra minutes or longer.

Ok I get what you're on about and agree in principle.

I just think that the rate per kwh up to 45mins and then the rate per kwh and same rate per min after is simple for the user to understand and in their mind will equate to double rate after 45mins.

I think it would have the same effect of moving them on quickly.

McGiver

kennethsmyth wrote:

I just think that the rate per kwh up to 45mins and then the rate per kwh and same rate per min after is simple for the user to understand and in their mind will equate to double rate after 45mins.

Many people are thick (see gaussian curve of normal distribution

) or ignorant. Leave it there for hour and half and you still pay only 5 quid extra.... L

kennethsmyth

McGiver wrote: »

Many people are thick (see gaussian curve of normal distribution ) or ignorant. Leave it there for hour and half and you still pay only 5 quid extra.... L

Which is why the idea of per min after the 45 mins on top of the per kwh would change that attitude, the 5 euro after 45 mins helps up to that time but then user accepts fate afterwards

ELM327

Black_Knight wrote: »

Even though that fiver is gone now, and you could charge for cheaper at home (all assuming you've got your required charge within the 45 minutes).

Yes of course, but if I planned to stop twice on a journey (so as to make it two 35 minute stops) I would instead just stay here. I get 50kW gross from the chargers all the way to 85% or higher. I could probably do 60-70 minutes at 50kW.

liamog

Did anybody see the detail of the person who got the overstay charge on Facebook?

They were plugged into the FastAC for 46 mins and received 4.9kWh, that means they must have had 6.6kW capable car.
€6.42 for 4.9kWh is an expensive way to charge a car, (though I'd of preferred they paid more, 20c/min would cost them €9.20)

Black_Knight

liamog wrote: »

Did anybody see the detail of the person who got the overstay charge on Facebook?

They were plugged into the FastAC for 46 mins and received 4.9kWh, that means they must have had 6.6kW capable car.
€6.42 for 4.9kWh is an expensive way to charge a car, (though I'd of preferred they paid more, 20c/min would cost them €9.20)

Lol. Brilliant! (Unless of course they were forced to use the AC because the DC was broken and they were stranded).

kennethsmyth

Black_Knight wrote: »

Lol. Brilliant! (Unless of course they were forced to use the AC because the DC was broken and they were stranded).

Now that's an interesting conundrum. You should be able to ring ecars and get the ac at a lower rate price if the dc is broke and you're stuck with no charge.

ELM327

liamog wrote: »

Did anybody see the detail of the person who got the overstay charge on Facebook?

They were plugged into the FastAC for 46 mins and received 4.9kWh, that means they must have had 6.6kW capable car.
€6.42 for 4.9kWh is an expensive way to charge a car, (though I'd of preferred they paid more, 20c/min would cost them €9.20)

Didnt see it, must be a group I'm not in.
Yes, using the fast AC for 46 mins is not on. Fully support them getting a penalty. Keep that free for cars that can actually fast charge.

I don't understand why they don't block cars from charging on AC that dont use 3 phase

kennethsmyth

liamog wrote: »

Did anybody see the detail of the person who got the overstay charge on Facebook?

They were plugged into the FastAC for 46 mins and received 4.9kWh, that means they must have had 6.6kW capable car.
€6.42 for 4.9kWh is an expensive way to charge a car, (though I'd of preferred they paid more, 20c/min would cost them €9.20)

He he, if that was a linear charge for the 4.9kwh (i know its not) it would be 1.31 euro per kwh, and I say use 95kwh per week for 500kms (bit heavy with the right foot) then it would cost 124 euro per week to charge!

kennethsmyth

ELM327 wrote: »

Didnt see it, must be a group I'm not in.
Yes, using the fast AC for 46 mins is not on. Fully support them getting a penalty. Keep that free for cars that can actually fast charge.

I don't understand why they don't block cars from charging on AC that dont use 3 phase

For the exact reason if the dc is down its either ac or a flatbed at present.

ELM327

kennethsmyth wrote: »

He he, if that was a linear charge for the 4.9kwh (i know its not) it would be 1.31 euro per kwh, and I say use 95kwh per week for 500kms (bit heavy with the right foot) then it would cost 124 euro per week to charge!

I'm using 95kWh every couple of days at present.
Am nearly at 1000kWh since purchase of the car, 6th Oct

kennethsmyth wrote: »

For the exact reason if the dc is down its either ac or a flatbed at present.

That's bad planning from the owner though, you should never put yourself in that situation.

In the future there will be more than one charger per site.

kennethsmyth

ELM327 wrote: »

I'm using 95kWh every couple of days at present.
Am nearly at 1000kWh since purchase of the car, 6th Oct

That's bad planning from the owner though, you should never put yourself in that situation.

In the future there will be more than one charger per site.

Understand you stating the bad planning by the owner but most people want to drive a car and stop when they need to charge without planning. In saying that I wouldn't do distances without knowing my own backups - but I'm a bit OCD, most persons are not.

A lady in front of our offices owns a brand new model 3 performance, I said to her beautiful car, she replied ahh yeah its grand. I totally got the feeling this was her first electric car and if it didnt work as good as a normal ice she'd give it back. Lucky she has a model 3 then.

ELM327

kennethsmyth wrote: »

Understand you stating the bad planning by the owner but most people want to drive a car and stop when they need to charge without planning. In saying that I wouldn't do distances without knowing my own backups - but I'm a bit OCD, most persons are not.

A lady in front of our offices owns a brand new model 3 performance, I said to her beautiful car, she replied ahh yeah its grand. I totally got the feeling this was her first electric car and if it didnt work as good as a normal ice she'd give it back. Lucky she has a model 3 then.

I suppose, but to be honest I've never ran out and I charged en route giving myself an option (even if that was 1 hour at an SCP).
Now with the Tesla I can pick any charger and if it's not working, go to the next one.

Interesting point re FCP charging costs... I went out to lunch with the folks from work today. We went to blanch through the SC.. and lo and behold no one charging.

Same for Navan, I havent seen anyone at it since payment came in! It's great!

DrPhilG

ECars just confirmed on Facebook that even if you already have 2 charge cards, they will charge you a tenner to add the second one to your account, lol.

Silent Running

DrPhilG wrote: »

ECars just confirmed on Facebook that even if you already have 2 charge cards, they will charge you a tenner to add the second one to your account, lol.

I have 2 cards on my account. One I had and one they sent to me when I registered (I didn't ask for it). I haven't been charged...... yet.

ELM327

DrPhilG wrote: »

ECars just confirmed on Facebook that even if you already have 2 charge cards, they will charge you a tenner to add the second one to your account, lol.

Just create a second account

Play the idiots at their own game :cool::cool::pac::pac:

unkel

ELM327 wrote: »

We went to blanch through the SC.. and lo and behold no one charging.

That's quite likely the second busiest charger in the country. As the one in Lucan (the busiest in the land), it was very rare to see no one charging at it. Now rarely occupied.

So much better with the charging for charging. If you need a fast charge in Dublin, you can actually get one.

MJohnston

ELM327 wrote: »

I'm using 95kWh every couple of days at present.
Am nearly at 1000kWh since purchase of the car, 6th Oct

That's bad planning from the owner though, you should never put yourself in that situation.

In the future there will be more than one charger per site.

You can hardly call it bad planning when there are plenty of ESB stations that don’t report their status at all, and most don’t report faults in their status.

We were driving to Belfast a few weeks ago and planned to stop at Applegreen Castlebellingham. When I got there, the CCS just wouldn’t start, but the app reported it as “available”. Luckily I didn’t really need the charge to reach my destination, but it meant driving more conservatively for the trip.

ESB need to get a lot better at this, and stations need to massively improve in reliability. You can’t blame drivers for bad planning when the infrastructure isn’t there to plan sensibly.

ELM327

MJohnston wrote: »

You can hardly call it bad planning when there are plenty of ESB stations that don’t report their status at all, and most don’t report faults in their status.

We were driving to Belfast a few weeks ago and planned to stop at Applegreen Castlebellingham. When I got there, the CCS just wouldn’t start, but the app reported it as “available”. Luckily I didn’t really need the charge to reach my destination, but it meant driving more conservatively for the trip.

ESB need to get a lot better at this, and stations need to massively improve in reliability. You can’t blame drivers for bad planning when the infrastructure isn’t there to plan sensibly.

But you have CCS, right? So you could have used Ionity at Gormanston, or travelled to the next charger. Dublin to Belfast is well served.

MJohnston

ELM327 wrote: »

But you have CCS, right? So you could have used Ionity at Gormanston, or travelled to the next charger. Dublin to Belfast is well served.

With a 3 year old in tow, the Applegreens are really the only usable stops given the superb kids facilities they provide.

My specific case doesn't matter though - point is you can't make reliable plans when the information provided to you for planning purposes is inaccurate.

If that charging stop had been vital to my plan, I'd absolutely have eaten the overstay fee and made sure I had enough slow charge to complete the journey.

ELM327

MJohnston wrote: »

With a 3 year old in tow, the Applegreens are really the only usable stops given the superb kids facilities they provide.

My specific case doesn't matter though - point is you can't make reliable plans when the information provided to you for planning purposes is inaccurate.

If that charging stop had been vital to my plan, I'd absolutely have eaten the overstay fee and made sure I had enough slow charge to complete the journey.

But that's the thing, you have the option to pay the overstay and stay longer if needed.

When we go with the kids it is immaterial where we stop once it's a services (luckily Tesla and Ionity are all in good service stops). If I'm charging on esb and it takes more than 45 minutes then that's what it takes - I'll pay the fee and only stop there (essentially just stay till I have enough to get home )

MJohnston

I'm fine personally with paying the overstay, but it is somewhat unfair that we're forced into that because ESB can't keep their chargers functional, or have their apps actually reflect reality.

zg3409

ELM327 wrote: »

But you have CCS, right? So you could have used Ionity at Gormanston, or travelled to the next charger. Dublin to Belfast is well served.

Gormanstown Ionity is still being built as far as I know and Ionity have had their fair share of multiple dodgy chargers and starting charge issues. I heard a statistic recently that something like 20% of the fast chargers in the UK are out of service all the time. The esb even have issues with brand new triple head and slow chargers giving trouble within days of installation. Another big fixable issue is esb refuse to mark any charger as faulty until an engineer has visited (they don't seem to work weekends), attempted to fix the issue and failed. Only then is it marked as down. This can easily be 4+days from when someone reported it on Facebook or plugshare and savvy users are already avoiding it. Combined with this they don't tell you if it is fixed (unless it was marked as broken) so you don't know the reported issue was solved and the charger is more likely to work. Multiple chargers would help, but they need 99% reliability.