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ESB eCars pricing introduction

ELM327

System Upgrade

Dear EV Drivers,

To enable us to provide you with some enhanced functionality and a new app, we will be performing a system upgrade this coming Wednesday morning, October 2nd,

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ELM327

kennethsmyth wrote: »

He he, if that was a linear charge for the 4.9kwh (i know its not) it would be 1.31 euro per kwh, and I say use 95kwh per week for 500kms (bit heavy with the right foot) then it would cost 124 euro per week to charge!

I'm using 95kWh every couple of days at present.
Am nearly at 1000kWh since purchase of the car, 6th Oct

kennethsmyth wrote: »

For the exact reason if the dc is down its either ac or a flatbed at present.

That's bad planning from the owner though, you should never put yourself in that situation.

In the future there will be more than one charger per site.

kennethsmyth

ELM327 wrote: »

Didnt see it, must be a group I'm not in.
Yes, using the fast AC for 46 mins is not on. Fully support them getting a penalty. Keep that free for cars that can actually fast charge.

I don't understand why they don't block cars from charging on AC that dont use 3 phase

For the exact reason if the dc is down its either ac or a flatbed at present.

kennethsmyth

liamog wrote: »

Did anybody see the detail of the person who got the overstay charge on Facebook?

They were plugged into the FastAC for 46 mins and received 4.9kWh, that means they must have had 6.6kW capable car.
€6.42 for 4.9kWh is an expensive way to charge a car, (though I'd of preferred they paid more, 20c/min would cost them €9.20)

He he, if that was a linear charge for the 4.9kwh (i know its not) it would be 1.31 euro per kwh, and I say use 95kwh per week for 500kms (bit heavy with the right foot) then it would cost 124 euro per week to charge!

ELM327

liamog wrote: »

Did anybody see the detail of the person who got the overstay charge on Facebook?

They were plugged into the FastAC for 46 mins and received 4.9kWh, that means they must have had 6.6kW capable car.
€6.42 for 4.9kWh is an expensive way to charge a car, (though I'd of preferred they paid more, 20c/min would cost them €9.20)

Didnt see it, must be a group I'm not in.
Yes, using the fast AC for 46 mins is not on. Fully support them getting a penalty. Keep that free for cars that can actually fast charge.

I don't understand why they don't block cars from charging on AC that dont use 3 phase

kennethsmyth

Black_Knight wrote: »

Lol. Brilliant! (Unless of course they were forced to use the AC because the DC was broken and they were stranded).

Now that's an interesting conundrum. You should be able to ring ecars and get the ac at a lower rate price if the dc is broke and you're stuck with no charge.

Black_Knight

liamog wrote: »

Did anybody see the detail of the person who got the overstay charge on Facebook?

They were plugged into the FastAC for 46 mins and received 4.9kWh, that means they must have had 6.6kW capable car.
€6.42 for 4.9kWh is an expensive way to charge a car, (though I'd of preferred they paid more, 20c/min would cost them €9.20)

Lol. Brilliant! (Unless of course they were forced to use the AC because the DC was broken and they were stranded).

liamog

Did anybody see the detail of the person who got the overstay charge on Facebook?

They were plugged into the FastAC for 46 mins and received 4.9kWh, that means they must have had 6.6kW capable car.
€6.42 for 4.9kWh is an expensive way to charge a car, (though I'd of preferred they paid more, 20c/min would cost them €9.20)

ELM327

Black_Knight wrote: »

Even though that fiver is gone now, and you could charge for cheaper at home (all assuming you've got your required charge within the 45 minutes).

Yes of course, but if I planned to stop twice on a journey (so as to make it two 35 minute stops) I would instead just stay here. I get 50kW gross from the chargers all the way to 85% or higher. I could probably do 60-70 minutes at 50kW.

kennethsmyth

McGiver wrote: »

Many people are thick (see gaussian curve of normal distribution ) or ignorant. Leave it there for hour and half and you still pay only 5 quid extra.... L

Which is why the idea of per min after the 45 mins on top of the per kwh would change that attitude, the 5 euro after 45 mins helps up to that time but then user accepts fate afterwards

McGiver

kennethsmyth wrote:

I just think that the rate per kwh up to 45mins and then the rate per kwh and same rate per min after is simple for the user to understand and in their mind will equate to double rate after 45mins.

Many people are thick (see gaussian curve of normal distribution

) or ignorant. Leave it there for hour and half and you still pay only 5 quid extra.... L

kennethsmyth

McGiver wrote: »

No it must be prohibitively expensive to discourage "I'll squeeze 100% out of it" but not completely prohibitive to the still allow some freedom of choice. If it's too cheap, the charger won't be vacated.

5 eur overstay = 10 min at 0.50/min.
Who wants to stay can stay a bit longer but it's costly.

Flat overstay fee is nonsensical because the person can stay there for 30 extra minutes or longer.

Ok I get what you're on about and agree in principle.

I just think that the rate per kwh up to 45mins and then the rate per kwh and same rate per min after is simple for the user to understand and in their mind will equate to double rate after 45mins.

I think it would have the same effect of moving them on quickly.

McGiver

kennethsmyth wrote:

Ok after doing the maths, I agree but not 50cent.

No it must be prohibitively expensive to discourage "I'll squeeze 100% out of it" but not completely prohibitive to the still allow some freedom of choice. If it's too cheap, the charger won't be vacated.

5 eur overstay = 10 min at 0.50/min.
Who wants to stay can stay a bit longer but it's costly.

Flat overstay fee is nonsensical because the person can stay there for 30 extra minutes or longer.

McGiver

kennethsmyth wrote:

45 mins charge per kwh 5euro charge on 46th min On 61st min the charge per kwh goes up to 50 cents

Too complicated.
45+ mins charge 0.5/min

kennethsmyth

McGiver wrote: »

No, it should be per minute. It's very simple. 0.50 perhaps minute or something.

Ok after doing the maths, I agree but not 50cent.

Essentially double (but not quiet as its a mix of kwh and mins) the rate.

If you are paying 29cents per kwh, after 45mins it becomes 29cent per kwh and 29cent per min after 45mins.

If paying 33cent per kwh, after 45mins its 33cent per kwh and 33cent per min after 45mins.

This is simple and easy to understand and will have same effect of the 5euro charge after 45 but push people to leave instead of "I've paid the 5euro now so I'll stay as I'm no longer in a rush"

Silent Running

It's a pity that there isn't a system where a car could stay charging after the 45 minutes is up without an overstay charge, as long as there isn't another car waiting. If the charger is going to be left idle there would be an incentive for ecars to keep it busy.

45 minutes isn't really enough for some of the bigger battery cars to get to 80%. On a long journey it might make the difference between one charge stop and two.

Obviously, if there's a car waiting the charger should be freed up as soon as possible to let the other driver on. Even 45 minutes seems too long in this case.

MJohnston

graememk wrote: »

Figured that would happen... All you need now is 2 accounts. Not saying I'll be doing it, just poking for loopholes

After this year, that'd mean you'd be paying an extra €5 a month for each account.

graememk

ethernet wrote: »

Should hopefully incur the overstay fee or get you booted off the system if a repeat offender:

Figured that would happen... All you need now is 2 accounts. Not saying I'll be doing it, just poking for loopholes

ethernet

graememk wrote: »

What would happen if you stopped the charge and started it again, would it be a new session?

Should hopefully incur the overstay fee or get you booted off the system if a repeat offender:

3. The Service
...
3.4 We shall be entitled to suspend Your Account and/or terminate the Agreement if:
...
3.3.3 You repeatedly avoid the overstay fee as specified in the Price Plan Terms and Conditions, in a clear and unambiguous attempt to lengthen Your charge time, and circumvent the application of the overstay fee by;
3.3.3.1 Stopping an in-progress charge before the overstay fee is due to apply;
3.3.3.2 Starting another charge on the same Charge Point from the same Account within a nominal time period (5 minutes) following the ending of the first charge.

7. Overstay Fees
...
7.2 In general, the application of the overstay fee will be automated. However, we reserve the right to apply this manually and retrospectively should we detect that attempts are being made to circumvent it. We would consider behaviour such as stopping an in-progress charge and starting another one on the same Charge Point from the same Account, with just a token period of inactivity (less than 5 minutes) inbetween to represent an attempt at circumvention.

graememk

What would happen if you stopped the charge and started it again, would it be a new session?

McGiver

DrPhilG wrote:

Should be â‚¬5 after 45 minutes and another â‚¬5 every half hour thereafter.

No, it should be per minute. It's very simple. 0.50 perhaps minute or something.

innrain

September1 wrote: »

I think it you have a car with larger battery it would be reasonable to plan staying 2 hours, you would lose 5 euro but gain some convenience of not charging twice on the way.

You don't gain anything for staying two hours. This should have been explained by the seller, by the ecars, by manufacturers, by RTE (instead of running ads to cars which claim to be perpetuum mobile).

Here is the range gain for Hyundai Kona64 as function of charging time at DC50kW for different starting battery states. If you start charging from 10%-30% you gain approx 225 km in 45 mins. But if you start at 80% you gain a mere 70km in the same time. 150 km difference in range. Wouldn't be better you charge 45 mins, you drive 1h30 mins and you charge again another 45 mins? The 5 euro overstay fee will set you back 17.24 kWh which is around 100-120km driving range. This is what you drive in an hour on the motorway.

kennethsmyth

liamog wrote: »

So basically a 33c/min charge (starting +45mins) plus 29c/kWh.
It's funny how often people keep designing per minute charges that kick in just after there own needs are usually met.

Its not my needs, its the needs of nearly every current family affordable electric car at present.

45 mins at a set rate per kwh is fair, if overstaying then yes a cost is needed to move people on. Its been proven here that 30 mins is not enough if using a charger for longer distances or have charging rate issues.

liamog

kennethsmyth wrote: »

I normally wouldnt agree with this but as the charge could have unitended consequences by only working once, I think it should go as follows.

45 mins charge per kwh
5euro charge on 46th min
5euro charge on 61st min
5euro charge on 76th min etc..

So basically a 33c/min charge (starting +45mins) plus 29c/kWh.
It's funny how often people keep designing per minute charges that kick in just after there own needs are usually met.

kennethsmyth

Black_Knight wrote: »

Even though that fiver is gone now, and you could charge for cheaper at home (all assuming you've got your required charge within the 45 minutes).

I normally wouldnt agree with this but as the charge could have unitended consequences by only working once, I think it should go as follows.

45 mins charge per kwh
5euro charge on 46th min
5euro charge on 61st min
5euro charge on 76th min etc..

OR

45 mins charge per kwh
5euro charge on 46th min
On 61st min the charge per kwh goes up to 50 cents

My preference is the second one.

Black_Knight

ELM327 wrote: »

Didnt see that, glad to see it's already being implemented.

If I get caught and dont end the session after 45 mins you can be damn sure I'll stay the full 2 hours to 100% to get the "value" of my fee

Even though that fiver is gone now, and you could charge for cheaper at home (all assuming you've got your required charge within the 45 minutes).

September1

ELM327 wrote: »

If I get caught and dont end the session after 45 mins you can be damn sure I'll stay the full 2 hours to 100% to get the "value" of my fee

I think it you have a car with larger battery it would be reasonable to plan staying 2 hours, you would lose 5 euro but gain some convenience of not charging twice on the way.

ELM327

September1 wrote: »

I saw on Facebook that someone who overstayed below 2 minutes got charged this 5E fee.

Didnt see that, glad to see it's already being implemented.

If I get caught and dont end the session after 45 mins you can be damn sure I'll stay the full 2 hours to 100% to get the "value" of my fee

DrPhilG

September1 wrote: »

I saw on Facebook that someone who overstayed below 2 minutes got charged this 5E fee.

Yep, delighted to see it.

Credit to the guy he wasn't complaining about the fee, just annoyed at himself for getting his timing wrong.

I still there there needs to be a further penalty to encourage disconnect after that fee. Otherwise he could have just said balls to it then, if I'm being hung for the fiver I'll stay another hour.

Should be €5 after 45 minutes and another €5 every half hour thereafter.

September1

I saw on Facebook that someone who overstayed below 2 minutes got charged this 5E fee.

MJohnston

An app like PlugShare shows a much higher level of polish and refinement for the exact same functionality.

Realistically, I think ESB's best approach should be to build a basic web app themselves, and then provide API access to all of the same functionality, to allow third-party apps to integrate instead (they're already partway here by letting other apps show station status). With the fragmentation of the charging networks, it's getting really frustrating to have to swap between a bunch of apps to find the true list of nearby stations.

Currently I have 4 different apps I use regularly for finding stations, because some (like Polar in the north) have their own siloed access.

Things are never going to go mainstream if this is to be the status quo.