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Do coders love coding?

bo0li5eumx12kp

Well - do they?

See, I try to be diverse.

Coding basically they're even teaching a primary level now, shows how integral a part of society it is.

I sucked at, and pretty much hated languages at school also.

Is coding just primarily for those who really love it from the word go?

And are really into it?

I learned the basics of javascript which was a calk walk compared to java itself.

I also did a couple semesters in college on C++ and hated it, but wish I paid more attention and it's something I feel I NEED to establish at least a base level of proficiency with if I'm to consider myself a reasonably contemporary critical thinker.

Python seems to be where it's at now and, some of these self taught kids appear to pick it up so easily.

What it is?

What's the mystery of being proficient with coding?

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lawred2

TuringBot47 wrote: »

Yeah, it's a toy database and was never considered a tier 1 supported database in any enterprise level software house I worked in.

It's clearly not a 'toy' database. Ridiculous statement.

TuringBot47

DublinWriter wrote: »

SQL Server is a joke compared to Oracle in terms of scalability and transaction management

Yeah, it's a toy database and was never considered a tier 1 supported database in any enterprise level software house I worked in.

jmcc

Mitchell Delicious Ivy wrote: »

I understand what you're saying, but it always struck me like there was a memorization aspect to certain lines and expressions that wasn't dissimilar from memorization of verbal language vocabulary.

The memorisation aspect applies to using what are effectively tools to achieve an objective. With human languages, the aim of that memorisation is different in that it is to communicate. Computer languages are task orientated rather than communications orientated.

There's been a lot written by old-school hackers about coding. One of the central elements is that it is often necessary to learn loads of stuff (inhaling textbooks is one of the more colour phrases used for the process) and then effectively forget (remove it from conscious memory) it until it is required. Actually, it is closer to developing a kind of memory palace where something that was read years ago only makes sense when it has to be used.

Many academic courses try to cram basic concepts into a a short period to cater for the lowest common denominator. The sad reality is that a lot of people who sign up for these courses will find coding difficult. Some of that is down to having to use perverse languages like Java and its unlamented predecessor Pascal, or poor teaching. But a lot of people find it difficult to think in coding terms. At the heart of this is the confusion over the nature of human and coding languages and the expectation that fluency in human languages automatically means that it would be possible to rapidly become fluent in a computer language.

Regards...jmcc

DublinWriter

John_Mc wrote: »

I think you were just bashing Microsoft for the sake of it.

I'd never bash Microsoft for the sake it...I have good reasons!

I've been around long enough to witness them be the company who thought they'd invent their own internet in the late 90's.

They've always had a culture of being very insular and arrogant. Oh sure, they're doing Open Source now, but they are *very* late to the party.

The architecture of .Net has been an ungodly mess from V.2 to V.4.x and performance is an absolute pig. If I was still developing native Windows applications I'd write them against the Win32 api instead of several layers of performance killing abstraction.

SQL Server is a joke compared to Oracle in terms of scalability and transaction management, although I do like the BI Stack (that they originally bought from Plato).

It even took them years to realise a stable and reliable OS (starting from NT 3.51) kernel based on expertise that they had to poach from Digital.

Microsoft do eventually get there, but it takes them a lot of unsuccessful tries beforehand. I'd just caution people about getting behind their first-gen products.

Sheeps

Yes, and it's something you can take emense pride in when you've written some beautiful code. Doesn't mean I want to do it all day every day, just like everything else in life.

CalamariFritti

Yes I always liked it and always came easy to me. Get real satisfaction out of producing something nice and clean and 'well rounded' that works well, doesnt matter whether its big or small. I must be wired that way.

antimatterx

Mitchell Delicious Ivy wrote: »

What language?

What undergrad course did you do?

I'm a frontend developer at the moment, so I use HTML, CSS and Javascript. I'm also starting with some React next year.

I studied computing in NCI and I can highly recommend it. Great course.

bo0li5eumx12kp

antimatterx wrote: »

I ****ing love it. I don't know how to explain it, but the feeling of solving a problem is equal to getting high.

I'm a frontend dev for the last 8 months, having been a PHP backend dev for the first 9 months of my career. Dare I say it, frontend is more fulfilling and challenging then backend was.

What language?

What undergrad course did you do?

antimatterx

I ****ing love it. I don't know how to explain it, but the feeling of solving a problem is equal to getting high.

I'm a frontend dev for the last 8 months, having been a PHP backend dev for the first 9 months of my career. Dare I say it, frontend is more fulfilling and challenging then backend was.

bo0li5eumx12kp

jmcc wrote: »

The technical term for that is "bollox". Human languages don't require a knowledge of algorithms and other aspects such as computability and problem solving.

A coding language's use is in getting hardware or other software to do what you want it to do. It could be argued that human languages are about getting wetware to do what you want but unlike coding, human languages generally involve a two, or more, way flow of information which all parties have to process. It is not uncommon for those from an Arts background doing a one year wonder course to try to extrapolate their previous knowledge of human languages to coding but the reality is that coding, at its core, is Mathematics. Being able to think in a coding language is very different from being able to think in a human language.

Regards...jmcc

I understand what you're saying, but it always struck me like there was a memorization aspect to certain lines and expressions that wasn't dissimilar from memorization of verbal language vocabulary.

jmcc

Mitchell Delicious Ivy wrote: »

I've read becoming proficient in a coding language is not dissimilar to a verbal language in terms of approach, difficultly, and time to proficiency.

The technical term for that is "bollox". Human languages don't require a knowledge of algorithms and other aspects such as computability and problem solving.

A coding language's use is in getting hardware or other software to do what you want it to do. It could be argued that human languages are about getting wetware to do what you want but unlike coding, human languages generally involve a two, or more, way flow of information which all parties have to process. It is not uncommon for those from an Arts background doing a one year wonder course to try to extrapolate their previous knowledge of human languages to coding but the reality is that coding, at its core, is Mathematics. Being able to think in a coding language is very different from being able to think in a human language.

Regards...jmcc

John_Mc

DublinWriter wrote: »

Considering there's no support for it with Edge, Chrome and Firefox, you'd be crazy to have anything in production now using it.

Totally agree that it would be crazy- it's the same with Flash.

My point being that they didn't drop it for the next big thing. Technology evolved and it was left behind. You could adopt it if you wanted but it would be unwise.

I think you were just bashing Microsoft for the sake of it.

.Net Core is an excellent framework and they've made it Open Source. They've made huge strides with their frameworks and deserve recognition for it rather than slating.

uck51js9zml2yt

Did 3 years of coding. Hdip and post grad. Hated it!

Winning_Stroke

Do coders love coding?

I enjoy it and am grateful that I have a job that I don't hate and which is well paid. But love? No. I don't code in my free time for instance. Open source stuff, can you imagine coming home from work and dealing with GitHub issues?! Haha, no thanks.

bo0li5eumx12kp

DublinWriter wrote: »

These days it's all about all the framework, not the language.

Being more specific about this statement....?

PS - I like #2 and #3 in your sig.

RD Laing was a descentor.

#4 - I don't know those guys.

DublinWriter

Mitchell Delicious Ivy wrote: »

I've read becoming proficient in a coding language is not dissimilar to a verbal language in terms of approach, difficultly, and time to proficiency.

Absolutely not. There's vast vocabulary, nuance and ambiguity in spoken language that doesn't exist in any family of computer language.

Any half-decent journeyman programmer can be proficient in a different language given a day or two.

It always makes me laugh when people say Java, or C++ is sooo different to C#. Try Cobol, Algol or Prolog if you really want to twist your lemon.

These days it's all about all the framework, not the language.

smacl

Mitchell Delicious Ivy wrote: »

I've read becoming proficient in a coding language is not dissimilar to a verbal language in terms of approach, difficultly, and time to proficiency.

Would you agree with this?

Would you liken your bolded text to proficiency in five spoken languages in any respect?

I'd liken learning and using a programming language with one or more SDKs as similar to cooking a great meal using a good cookbook. Designing and implementing great algorithms are what makes you a chef.

bo0li5eumx12kp

seamus wrote: »

Tbh, you'd be silly hitching your wagon to almost anything these days. Within a decade there'll be a new framework that does things faster and better and more integrated with the cloud of the day.

It's one thing to spend 99% of your day coding C# or Java, but if that's all you can see yourself doing until you retire, then the amount of job opportunities will start drying up.

Being a polyglot these days is of considerable value. An expert C++ coder can learn to write any other language to a very high level inside of 3 months. The difference is in how different types of code build, interact with libraries, interact with SDKs and frameworks. Someone with a mid-level exposure to five languages will be able to make a better informed decision about the best way to approach a problem. Someone with only one language will always try to solve problems in that language.

I've read becoming proficient in a coding language is not dissimilar to a verbal language in terms of approach, difficultly, and time to proficiency.

Would you agree with this?

Would you liken your bolded text to proficiency in five spoken languages in any respect?

seamus

Tbh, you'd be silly hitching your wagon to almost anything these days. Within a decade there'll be a new framework that does things faster and better and more integrated with the cloud of the day.

It's one thing to spend 99% of your day coding C# or Java, but if that's all you can see yourself doing until you retire, then the amount of job opportunities will start drying up.

Being a polyglot these days is of considerable value. An expert C++ coder can learn to write any other language to a very high level inside of 3 months. The difference is in how different types of code build, interact with libraries, interact with SDKs and frameworks. Someone with a mid-level exposure to five languages will be able to make a better informed decision about the best way to approach a problem. Someone with only one language will always try to solve problems in that language.

DublinWriter

John_Mc wrote: »

They announced Silverlight was going to be discontinued but it's still going.

Considering there's no support for it with Edge, Chrome and Firefox, you'd be crazy to have anything in production now using it.

John_Mc

DublinWriter wrote: »

By wary of hooking your IT career to one particular-star, especially Microsoft. They are the most faddish of the lot when it comes to proffering the framework de-jour, then dropping it for another.

Care to elaborate on that? They announced Silverlight was going to be discontinued but it's still going. I'm not aware of anything else they've dropped in the manner you've described. Maybe you're mistaking this with the evolution and improvement of their offerings?

.Net Core is a substantial improvement over MVC and MVC was a substantial improvement over WebForms.

You could still get a job working with any of those frameworks if you wanted today too.

Tar.Aldarion

I like logic and solving problems, coding itself is fairly meaningless to me. I like seeing things I build being used and helping others. I don't love coding, I don't do it outside of work. I could easily do any other number of careers and be happy, this one suits me well too.

DublinWriter

To me, languages/coding were just tools in the bag. The buzz was creating a finished product and seeing it being used everyday.

I used to say that if I could develop a system using one line of code I'd be happy, and I nearly achieved that using a meta-data driven framework.

IT careers back in the day (80's-90's) were more satisfying as you got to get your hands across all aspects of a project.

These days, as IT matures, roles have become more compartmentalised and rote. If I was starting out now, I wouldn't go near IT as a career.

The one thing I notice over a long period is that IT has more in common with the fashion industry than the tech industry. In IT fads come and go (c & unix, client-server, n-tier, web services, cloud, etc).

By wary of hooking your IT career to one particular-star, especially Microsoft. They are the most faddish of the lot when it comes to proffering the framework de-jour, then dropping it for another.

bo0li5eumx12kp

28064212 wrote: »

Define "critical thinking ability"? Regardless, the answer will be no. Some coding tasks challenge critical thinking ability. Some mathematical tasks challenge critical thinking ability. Some literature, art, physics, accounting... tasks challenge critical thinking ability.

Ability to take on a discipline that you've found challenging/didn't like - boil it down to its core concepts, and build a framework where you can approach it such to yield a highly productive outcome that's not only manageable, but hopefully enjoyable for yourself.

I've done a smattering of coding - I hated it.
I hated the lecturer that taught it - he was the most a-social individual I met throughout my college career.
I spent a few months playing about with youtube tutorials and codeacademy but, messy way of learning.

But, a few years on, I understand how important computer applications are to our existence as humans, and bottom line is - I want to be a part of it.
Not necessarily to work in it (I have a great job I love and suits me perfectly), but simply to understand it.

In the same way I wanted to understand genetics, drug mechanics - whatever.

They may challenge critical thinking, but development and writing code, does so in a way that I know from (albeit limited) past experience, is so abstract/monotonous/memory heavy - to me it's hardly even comparable to any of those other disciplines listed.

H3llR4iser

WhiteMemento9 wrote: »

It highly depends on the job but in many cases, the way Software Development has gone sucks the life out of any enjoyment. Sprints, constant meetings, deadlines, testing, the constant need for the business to quantify work done so always trying to find better and better ways to track and quantify work. It doesn't feel as creative or enjoyable when all those get thrown in the mix.

https://medium.com/@melissamcewen/i-just-dont-want-to-be-a-software-developer-anymore-a371422069a1

This is it - and the blog article is pretty much spot on.

I've been dabbling with code for over 30 years (got started by modifying BASIC listings from books and magazines on the C64), been doing it as a job since 2001.

In short, all she says about the way developer jobs have gone is quite true, especially the "Snow Crash" comparison. That's exactly the way it works.

Most of the blame has to fall on the dumpster fire that is "Agile" - add unnecessary rush, complication and fragmentation to churn out "sellable features". Research and propositive thinking are discouraged - takes too long. And dependencies hell is a real thing - nobody really develops new stuff at a corporate level anymore, they simply "glue together" frameworks and libraries. Even when they contain loads of stuff they don't need. Basically, the industry had gone from finely crafted, beautiful Lego creations to chunky, tacky unrefined Playmobil horrors - often kept together with generous amounts of duct tape.

That's why when a management position was available, I took it with both hands. Most "coders", developers and technical people in general never make the transition, preferring to be code monkeys the whole life - I couldn't take it anymore.

That said, just like the blogger lady, I do still code in my own time, for my own sake. I've got a few pet projects - a couple of Unity games that I'll surely never finish and an Arduino-based control dashboard for my model railway...which kinda works

28064212

Mitchell Delicious Ivy wrote: »

And if one wanted to challenge their critical thinking ability, it's the realm of coding that would present the greatest challenge?

Define "critical thinking ability"? Regardless, the answer will be no. Some coding tasks challenge critical thinking ability. Some mathematical tasks challenge critical thinking ability. Some literature, art, physics, accounting... tasks challenge critical thinking ability.

bo0li5eumx12kp

bpmurray wrote: »

All good coders love coding. They see a programming task as akin to a crossword or suduko. Look at the kids at Coderdojo - they're absolutely engrossed in what they do. In particular, there's a great sense of achievement when everything works.

Of course, there are times when the task is mind-numbingly boring. Even when trying to find a bug in some archaic code, there's a sense of solving a puzzle, so it can suck you in and still gives that sense of achievement.

Clearly that's not how everyone's mind is wired, so don't sweat it if you're not one of these. If you're in the computer industry, you probably know that bringing something to market is only around 30% development. The rest is design, planning, marketing, managing, etc. So if you're not really into coding but have an appreciation of software development, there's plenty of room in the other 70% of the process.

But it's fair to say that coding/development is the true heartbeat of the process?

And if one wanted to challenge their critical thinking ability, it's the realm of coding that would present the greatest challenge?

bpmurray

All good coders love coding. They see a programming task as akin to a crossword or suduko. Look at the kids at Coderdojo - they're absolutely engrossed in what they do. In particular, there's a great sense of achievement when everything works.

Of course, there are times when the task is mind-numbingly boring. Even when trying to find a bug in some archaic code, there's a sense of solving a puzzle, so it can suck you in and still gives that sense of achievement.

Clearly that's not how everyone's mind is wired, so don't sweat it if you're not one of these. If you're in the computer industry, you probably know that bringing something to market is only around 30% development. The rest is design, planning, marketing, managing, etc. So if you're not really into coding but have an appreciation of software development, there's plenty of room in the other 70% of the process.

BrokenArrows

Do all coders/developers love it? Well No.

Its just like any other job. Some people are passionate about it and others are just working the hours and going home.

Some people are naturally gifted at it, and others are just able to do the job after studying and learning.

jmcc

Jim2007 wrote: »

In 12 months, nope simply not possible. Any language school will tell you it takes about two years of full time courses to get to A2 level, which means you could just about survive in a language and a further two years time get to B1 which would mean you could work through the language.

There's a big difference between human languages and coding languages. With human languages, it is all about the ideas that one wants to communicate. With coding it is about what one wants to do.

With coding languages, it is possible to pick up the basics of another language in a few hours if one is already proficient in a coding language. But proficiency and productivity are completely different issues. It can take as long as five years of continual use to be able to "think" in a computer language.

Regards...jmcc