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M50 Congestion

First Up

I had to go from Dalkey to just off the N81 towards Blessington yesterday at about 5pm. The obvious (only?) route was via Cherrywood to the M50 and off at Firhouse. I expected it to be busy but nothing could prepare me for the experience.

No problems getting to the M50 but as I approached the Carrickmines junction the signs were flashing about delays and I could already see the tailback ahead. It then took well over an hour to cover the few miles to Firhouse. There was no sign of any accidents and the traffic programme on Dublin City FM just casually mentioned it was slow but it sounded like they considered this normal.

Is this normal? The motorway on that section is at least 2 and mostly 3 lanes and the only "complications" are a couple of exit and entry points. Is that all it takes to reduce traffic to 5k an hour in first gear? (It seemed to be equally bad further on.)

Do regular users have to put up with this every day?

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magicbastarder

First Up wrote: »

Thanks. Now can you apply that equation to the M50, where cycling is not allowed?

i always said that the biggest trick they missed when widening the M50 is not putting a cycle lane at the top of the embankment (this is without quite having a plan for how they would deal with the interchanges).
i've known two people living in dublin 15 and working out near parkwest in the last few years. main street blanch to the fox and geese is a simple spin down the M50 (incurring a toll despite only passing one junction). but cycling there is another matter entirely, and only experienced cyclists would consider it.

if you want to get from say carpenterstown to liffey valley retail park (less than 2km as the crow flies), it's 10km walking or on the bike - and that would involve cycling on roads that many experienced cyclists would not enjoy cycling, let alone enticing non-cyclists to try it.

First Up

Highways in the US close to cities usually have "Diamond Lanes" that can only be used by cars with 3+ occupants. It encourages car pooling.

The M50 is a busy road because it serves an important purpose. That isn't going to change. When it works, it works reasonably well. Orbital motorways are needed and used all over the world.

Improved driving and less accidents would speed the M50 up considerably. No big spend needed on new roads, extra buses or abandoning cars for bikes. Just proper bloody driving (encouraged by drastic punishment for those who don't.)

LeinsterDub

First Up wrote: »

Highways in the US close to cities usually have "Diamond Lanes" that can only be used by cars with 3+ occupants. It encourages car pooling.

The M50 is a busy road because it serves an important purpose. That isn't going to change. When it works, it works reasonably well. Orbital motorways are needed and used all over the world.

Improved driving and less accidents would speed the M50 up considerably. No big spend needed on new roads, extra buses or abandoning cars for bikes. Just proper bloody driving (encouraged by drastic punishment for those who don't.)

This is a pie in the sky solution. Motorist break the law at an alarming rate, even with anpr covering the entire M50 law breaking will still occur. Accidents will still occur.

The fact of the matter the cause of congestion is too many cars. Any 'solutions' that propose to solve it without decreasing the number of cars is a nonsense

MJohnston

First Up wrote: »

Highways in the US close to cities usually have "Diamond Lanes" that can only be used by cars with 3+ occupants. It encourages car pooling.

The M50 is a busy road because it serves an important purpose. That isn't going to change. When it works, it works reasonably well. Orbital motorways are needed and used all over the world.

Improved driving and less accidents would speed the M50 up considerably. No big spend needed on new roads, extra buses or abandoning cars for bikes. Just proper bloody driving (encouraged by drastic punishment for those who don't.)

Yeah, none of that will actually solve anything here though.

Carpooling might have some advantages, but it works in the US because there are bigger distances between exits. Most HOV/diamond lanes prevent you from exiting at every exit, for example, as they're generally intended as an express route from end to end. Those that don't generally have built extensive HOV exit bridges that would never happen in Ireland.

The majority of the congestion causing driving on the M50 is merely 'bad' driving, it is not illegal driving.

Hogging the middle lane? Basically not illegal, certainly not to any enforceable level.
Driving too close and having to brake for the cars in front, causing accordion effect congestion? Mostly not illegal, unless of course you're tailgating.
Not using the full length of the auxiliary lane to accelerate to motorway speeds before merging in and causing slowdowns? Not illegal.
etc. etc.

Accidents are also always going to happen - it's a country with frequent bad weather.

First Up

LeinsterDub wrote:

The fact of the matter the cause of congestion is too many cars. Any 'solutions' that propose to solve it without decreasing the number of cars is a nonsense

Decreasing the number of cars would help but not by nearly as much as cutting out the delays caused by bad driving.

Some peak time congestion is inevitable; its an important road doing an important job. Accidents and breakdowns are entirely avoidable and eliminating most of them is quicker, cheaper and more realistic than anything else that has been suggested.

First Up

MJohnston wrote:

The majority of the congestion causing driving on the M50 is merely 'bad' driving, it is not illegal driving.

Some of it is illegal but I agree; many Irish drivers don't understand how motorways work.

MJohnston wrote:

Hogging the middle lane? Basically not illegal, certainly not to any enforceable level. Driving too close and having to brake for the cars in front, causing accordion effect congestion? Mostly not illegal, unless of course you're tailgating. Not using the full length of the auxiliary lane to accelerate to motorway speeds before merging in and causing slowdowns? Not illegal. etc. etc.

Yes, all big contributors and I'd like to see a lot more effort go into education and enforcement.

MJohnston wrote:

Accidents are also always going to happen - it's a country with frequent bad weather.

Weather causes a tiny fraction of our accidents compared to bad/stupid driving.

LeinsterDub

First Up wrote: »

. Accidents and breakdowns are entirely avoidable and eliminating most of them is quicker, cheaper and more realistic than anything else that has been suggested.

You should sell this magical solution the government and help save hundreds of people are year. I'm eager to hear your solution to breakdowns. I'm wagering your solution involves some manner of crystal ball

First Up

LeinsterDub wrote:

You should sell this magical solution the government and help save hundreds of people are year. I'm eager to hear your solution to breakdowns. I'm wagering your solution involves some manner of crystal ball

Education, enforcement and drastic punishment.

It works.

ELM327

First Up wrote: »

Education, enforcement and drastic punishment.

It works.

This I agree with
The amount of awful driving i witness on the M3 and M50 is incredible

MJohnston

First Up wrote: »

Education, enforcement and drastic punishment.

Of what?

ELM327

MJohnston wrote: »

Of what?

Driving laws as mentioned above..

MJohnston

ELM327 wrote: »

Driving laws as mentioned above..

There were no driving laws mentioned above

LeinsterDub

MJohnston wrote: »

There were no driving laws mentioned above

I think we have to be reasonable here. A prescient police state is the simplest, best, most cost effective solution.

First Up

MJohnston wrote:

There were no driving laws mentioned above

Education on how motorways work, specifically on lane usage, braking distance and how to enter and exit

Enforcement of the above through cameras and patrols.

Punishment for bad driving causing accidents - and break downs caused by poor maintenance and running out of fuel. Towing charges, fines and penalty points

LeinsterDub

First Up wrote: »

Education on how motorways work, specifically on lane usage, braking distance and how to enter and exit

Enforcement of the above through cameras and patrols.

Punishment for bad driving causing accidents - and break downs caused by poor maintenance and running out of fuel. Towing charges, fines and penalty points

This sounds like punishment after the fact. You told us we could avoid them altogether!

Enforced by who? An before you say AGS remember they don't care about all the rest of road user law breaking so why would they magical decide to care about your commute?

Stark

First Up wrote: »

Weather causes a tiny fraction of our accidents compared to bad/stupid driving.

Have to agree here. Though it sure gets used as an excuse a lot.

https://twitter.com/DubFireBrigade/status/1198024397480697858

Poor guy, guess it couldn't have been avoided, the roads were wet after all.

First Up

LeinsterDub wrote:

This sounds like punishment after the fact. You told us we could avoid them altogether!

Enforced by who? An before you say AGS remember they don't care about all the rest of road user law breaking so why would they magical decide to care about your commute?

Cameras would take care of most of it.

The threat of detection and drastic punishment changed drink driving habits a fair bit. It would on the M50 too.

Borgo

Maybe you should have to drive on the motorway as part of your test or as part of your lessons with your instructor. We drive around as a learner permit, pass the test, and thats it off you go, without any knowledge of the motorway. A couple of questions about the motorway in the RSA centre is not enough.

First Up

Borgo wrote:

Maybe you should have to drive on the motorway as part of your test or as part of your lessons with your instructor. We drive around as a learner permit, pass the test, and thats it off you go, without any knowledge of the motorway. A couple of questions about the motorway in the RSA centre is not enough.

Agree; the consequences of bad motorway driving are a lot worse than on the suburban roads where tests are usually conducted!

[Deleted User]

Borgo wrote: »

Maybe you should have to drive on the motorway as part of your test or as part of your lessons with your instructor. We drive around as a learner permit, pass the test, and thats it off you go, without any knowledge of the motorway. A couple of questions about the motorway in the RSA centre is not enough.

It is not education, really, when it comes down to it. Almost everyone knows what they should be doing and how they should behave when they're on the M50 or whatever. There is practically zero enforcement, however. They just get into the habit of driving like pricks because it is almost consequence free 99.9% of the time.

Do something bad like stay in lane 3 and skip all the slowcoaches,
Nothing happens as a consequence,
In fact you seem to get there quicker,
Incorporate it into your regular driving habits,
Do something else bad like break the speed limit,
Rinse & repeat

First Up

Deleted User wrote:

Do something bad like stay in lane 3 and skip all the slowcoaches, Nothing happens as a consequence, In fact you seem to get there quicker, Incorporate it into your regular driving habits, Do something else bad like break the speed limit, Rinse & repeat

Middle lane hoggers are a bigger problem but that has been discussed many times.

Borgo

[Deleted User] wrote: »

It is not education, really, when it comes down to it. Almost everyone knows what they should be doing and how they should behave when they're on the M50 or whatever. There is practically zero enforcement, however. They just get into the habit of driving like pricks because it is almost consequence free 99.9% of the time.

Do something bad like stay in lane 3 and skip all the slowcoaches,
Nothing happens as a consequence,
In fact you seem to get there quicker,
Incorporate it into your regular driving habits,
Do something else bad like break the speed limit,
Rinse & repeat

I agree some do it as theres no consequence and they incorporate it into there driving etc but I genuinely think most people havent a clue. I passed my test a good few months ago now and Id say I got asked about two questions about the motorway. Thats it. Ive also drove on it lots of times since ive passed and its shocking. Just a little more knowledge and actually driving on the thing before your test or during it wont do any harm. Thank god I dont have to drive on that M50 everyday.

[Deleted User]

First Up wrote: »

Middle lane hoggers are a bigger problem but that has been discussed many times.

Exactly......sit in the middle with zero repercussions and it becomes your default. If you got two fines a day for a week it would soon soften your cough.

First Up

Deleted User wrote:

Exactly......sit in the middle with zero repercussions and it becomes your default. If you got two fines a day for a week it would soon soften your cough.

It would, and allow the road be used as intended.

Breezer

Lads, it’s not an either/or solution. Cycling infrastructure, ebike share schemes and incentives, and even, I suspect, providing ANPR and Garda resources, can all be done for a fraction of what we waste in Health every year. They will all help and everyone’s a winner, even your man here who would prefer to sit in traffic than have a bullet train from his sofa to his jacks with a steak dinner provided.

What probably is either/or is building another orbital motorway vs building Metrolink, DART Underground and DART expansion. And if you want to reduce congestion there’s one clear winner when those are weighed up.

LeinsterDub

First Up wrote: »

Agree; the consequences of bad motorway driving are a lot worse than on the suburban roads where tests are usually conducted!

The majority of deaths and injuries happen off motorways. The majority of accidents on the m50 are vender benders but you being home in time for tea is of course of the upmost importance

First Up

LeinsterDub wrote:

The majority of deaths and injuries happen off motorways. The majority of accidents on the m50 are vender benders but you being home in time for tea is of course of the upmost importance

Its fender and the consequences of bending one on a busy motorway are multiples of it happening on a side road.

People miss flights, hospital and business appointments and hours of productive work time because people don't drive properly on the M50.

I could ask you to explain what deaths and injuries on other roads have to do with M50 congestion but I your contributions to this topic don't encourage me to bother.

LeinsterDub

First Up wrote: »

Its fender and the consequences of bending one on a busy motorway are multiples of it happening on a side road.

People miss flights, hospital and business appointments and hours of productive work time because people don't drive properly on the M50.

I could ask you to explain what deaths and injuries on other roads have to do with M50 congestion but I your contributions to this topic don't encourage me to bother.

What does it have to with M50 congestion? Well that's fairly simple. Your commute isn't the most important thing in the world. If we are going to introduce ANPR it should be used for used for bus lanes. If we are going to have a crackdown on illegal driving it should be behaviour that kills and injures. Ironically this would help the M50 more than your fictional enforcement clamp down as if you stop people bus lane jumping they'll consider getting the bus. If you stop people red light and illegal parking they might consider cycling.

The amount of resources required for your clamp down is a complete waste of resources

Idbatterim

Breezer wrote: »

Lads, it’s not an either/or solution. Cycling infrastructure, ebike share schemes and incentives, and even, I suspect, providing ANPR and Garda resources, can all be done for a fraction of what we waste in Health every year. They will all help and everyone’s a winner, even your man here who would prefer to sit in traffic than have a bullet train from his sofa to his jacks with a steak dinner provided.

What probably is either/or is building another orbital motorway vs building Metrolink, DART Underground and DART expansion. And if you want to reduce congestion there’s one clear winner when those are weighed up.

hang on though! if they build the outer orbital road, the love affair with roads can continue and the best bit of all? much of it wouldnt have to run in county Dublin!!!!

We can continue with the backward road based planning embraced by this country and deprive "de dubs" (of DM and DU) sure they already have a buses up there etc...

First Up

LeinsterDub wrote:

What does it have to with M50 congestion? Well that's fairly simple. Your commute isn't the most important thing in the world. If we are going to introduce ANPR it should be used for used for bus lanes. If we are going to have a crackdown on illegal driving it should be behaviour that kills and injures. Ironically this would help the M50 more than your fictional enforcement clamp down as if you stop people bus lane jumping they'll consider getting the bus. If you stop people red light and illegal parking they might consider cycling.

The amount of resources required for your clamp down is a complete waste of resources

I'm not arguing the relative importance of my journeys but a road with over 140,000 daily users deserves attention. Delays on the M50 affect more people than any others and unlike commuter routes into and out of the city, people caught up in them have few other options.

It is built for purpose and (after several upgrades such as a 3rd lane and the Red Cow interchange) it delivers most of the time. When it doesn't, my experience is that 9 times out of 10 the problems are caused by bad driving.

That is a something that should and can be addressed.