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The eBike thread

unkel

A quick look seems that this doesn't really seem to fit in the cycling forum. So starting a thread here about all things eBike

I'll get the ball rolling. I have zero experience with eBikes. But I was going to build myself a battery anyway, for various reasons (like in bringing with me in my EV as a "petrol can")

I'm going to buy a solderless kit to make the battery (with 18650 cells I have removed from dead / old laptop batteries). This kit cah handle 20A max, and I would like the battery pack to produce 1kW constant. P=V*I so 1000W = 50V * 20A

This dictates that my battery needs to be nominal 48V (was thinking of making a 24V battery pack, but that won't be able to charge my car)

A quick browse on eBay and Amazon shows that you could buy a powerful 1000W bike conversion kit with everything needed except the battery for about GBP120 (a bit more from Amazon but peace of mind)

What to buy though, front wheel or rear wheel kit? Pros and cons? Any other advice?

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unkel

Thanks lads, I'll give that a try.

Deleted User wrote: »

You have to get the timing right Unkel, hall wires + motor phases, it all has to be in Sync and it can be a pure bitch to get working.

Now you're confusing me. Could you please have another look at the pics, only 4 wires coming out of the motor, looks like 3 phase wires and 1 neutral / ground? Seems the motor has no hall wires? What Joe1919 says about the voltages on the phase wires makes some sense. A 3 phase motor is in fact a generator, creating a voltage on the 3 phase wires when spinning even when not connected to anything

Deleted User wrote: »

Is it a geared hub ?

Not 100% sure if it's a direct drive or a geared hub motor

Maybe direct drives don't have hall sensors and geared hub motors do, or is that too much of a generalisation?

I actually bought a very similar tester a few weeks ago for less than a tenner including shipping, it's on its way to me from Chinaland

[Deleted User]

For testing motor/controller I used to use one of these, I don't know where it went to since I moved House.

[Deleted User]

You have to get the timing right Unkel, hall wires + motor phases, it all has to be in Sync and it can be a pure bitch to get working.

Is it a geared hub ?

Joe1919

unkel wrote: »

Motor broken most likely?

Maybe not. Try spinning the motor in the proper direction before flicking the throttle. This gives the controller the opportunity to figure out the motor positions and directions by sensing the voltages (back emf) on the cables before applying power. (I believe in the earlier days of these 3 phase type motors, it was always necessary to pedal the bike initially to get the motor going). This was improved and was not necessary later by using hall sensors or alternatively (sensorless) by fitting some type of learning procedure/learning wires/jumper on controller. As far as I know, this works better on direct drives, as the geared motor freewheel stops motor from turning.
However, I don't have any specific or practical knowledge of this setup.

PS. Dont damage your controller. It would be safer if you could fit some type of overcurrent protection on battery lead e.g. 6amp RCD or fuse. Even a small flick of many throttles will allow full current to motor.
Direct drive motors are relatively easy to test. The motor disconnected should turn with a small lumpy resistance.. Putting a short circuit between the phases (3 combinations, one at a time, with controller disconnected) should make yhe wheel very heavy and stiff to turn. (quick test) If you have a meter, test continuity, colour code etc
I would be a bit worried about that neutral wire i.e. It might need its own controller with 4 wires to be compatible.

unkel

I got a cheap 26" wheel with an old ABB 3 phase motor cheaply a while back. Because I still don't have my bike back, I thought I'd give the other components a try. Wired up controller to throttle and to battery. Have voltage at throttle, which apparently is a good sign everything works.

Here's the wheel:

Here's the connector of the wheel:

Brown is neutral / unused? Obviously no hall sensor here.

Connect the 3 phase wires randomly to the white, black and blue (in any combination) and as soon as I press the throttle, there is a distinct but not very loud single click from the motor (I also tried the brown, pretty much the same result)

Here's my video on it:

Linky

You can hear the click from the motor (left audio channel) and then the release click from the throttle much closer by (right audio channel)

Any ideas? Motor broken most likely? Looks like controller, throttle and battery at least are all connected up right?

John Hutton

Ah cool. Looking forward to it all arriving and putting it together, I'll share some pics when I'm done

loughside

John Hutton wrote: »

Speaking of connecting the battery, I think it comes with bullet connectors, should I bother swapping them for Anderson connectors or just slap a load of tape on the bullets to keep water out?

My 02 came with the bullets, never changed them, just make sure they fit tight and you keep the water out.

John Hutton

loughside wrote: »

Hi john, I take it you checked your BB size and all is ok?
Your rear QR `should` be ok, i have that on my HD conversion so far holding up ok, tho saying that i never have to go over PAS4 (out of nine) so try to keep torque in check
You may need this spanner.. see pic.. you`ll find this has to be really tight
The left crank will come loose over time, needs Loctite or similar
If you`re not using the brake levers provided, one of the brake sensors is enough
And before you fit whip off the motor cover, six Allens iirc, and check there`s enough grease on those steel cogs, its common to find little or no grease in there, use AeroShell or similar not the ordinary stuff.
The loom will also be too long, i tidied it into one of those bar bags.
Programming software can be dowmloaded here https://www.poweredride.com/info/bbshd-and-bbs02-configuration-programming-resources
I read in PSW`s ad this `Hot rod programmed for ultimate performance` not something i`d recommend, i`d pull the amps down to 20 for starters, when you`re touring you dont want everything running at peak power.

good luck with the build, you`ll like it!

Yeah the BB is just a regular 68 one.

Speaking of connecting the battery, I think it comes with bullet connectors, should I bother swapping them for Anderson connectors or just slap a load of tape on the bullets to keep water out?

Good call on that tool, I'll buy one.

loughside

Hi john, I take it you checked your BB size and all is ok?
Your rear QR `should` be ok, i have that on my HD conversion so far holding up ok, tho saying that i never have to go over PAS4 (out of nine) so try to keep torque in check
You may need this spanner.. see pic.. you`ll find this has to be really tight
The left crank will come loose over time, needs Loctite or similar
If you`re not using the brake levers provided, one of the brake sensors is enough
And before you fit whip off the motor cover, six Allens iirc, and check there`s enough grease on those steel cogs, its common to find little or no grease in there, use AeroShell or similar not the ordinary stuff.
The loom will also be too long, i tidied it into one of those bar bags.
Programming software can be dowmloaded here https://www.poweredride.com/info/bbshd-and-bbs02-configuration-programming-resources
I read in PSW`s ad this `Hot rod programmed for ultimate performance` not something i`d recommend, i`d pull the amps down to 20 for starters, when you`re touring you dont want everything running at peak power.

good luck with the build, you`ll like it!

John Hutton

Joe1919 wrote: »

John, I would definitely fit that 4kg battery on the downtube where its supposed to go. I had problems before with a heavy battery causing a shimmy and also making the bike unbalanced by putting too much weight in the rear. Rear batteries work ok with front hubs (as they counterbalance) and are often necessary with low step thru bikes.Remember also that you might be adding additional weight if touring.
I would also fit an mtb type solid bolt on axle in the rear hub as it far more secure than a quick release.

Cheers Joe, I think you're right, I'll stick in on the downtube.

I'm gonna try the new skewer and the surly hurdy gurdy thing first. I'm reluctant to lose the quick release, much more likely to get a puncture at the rear and I don't wanna get stuck with a flat.

If my set up doesn't work I'll switch to the solid bolt.

Joe1919

John Hutton wrote: »

Just for those following, I have a thread here: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=103460&p=1513614#p1513614

Reckon I have missed anything? I have a good set of tools for bike building so unless there is some sort of unique bafang tool needed I should be ok there.

John, I would definitely fit that 4kg battery on the downtube where its supposed to go. I had problems before with a heavy battery causing a shimmy and also making the bike unbalanced by putting too much weight in the rear. Rear batteries work ok with front hubs (as they counterbalance) and are often necessary with low step thru bikes.Remember also that you might be adding additional weight if touring.
I would also fit an mtb type solid bolt on axle in the rear hub as it far more secure than a quick release.

John Hutton

Just for those following, I have a thread here: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=103460&p=1513614#p1513614

Basically I got the 750w motor, 17.5ah battery (will have to see how good this actually is) and charger, gear sensor, brake sensors, new Shimano QR skewer and a surly hurdy gurdy for a grand total of 760euro including delivery.

If it all arrives I think that's a decent deal.

Interesting point made in that thread about the forward facing semi horizontal dropouts on my bike and the chance of the axel slipping forward under heavy load. This actually happened once to me on that bike, but that was mainly due to paint on the drop out from when I sprayed the frame. Since I sanded it it hasn't happened even with the cheap QR skewer I currently have. Hopefully the new QR and the surly hurdy gurdy (stupid name for what seems a decent bit of kit) will stop any slippage. But we will see!

Reckon I have missed anything? I have a good set of tools for bike building so unless there is some sort of unique bafang tool needed I should be ok there.

unkel

loughside wrote: »

Read on down the listing

--> Warranty : 1 year(based on the purchase data): Free repaire,buyer pay for return postage and resend postage

Don`t fancy paying FedEx for the carriage on a 5kg Motor back to Germany AND then on top of that paying for the return trip!!

Amazon's customer service should override whatever the manufacturer offers. So I would still expect a free return and 100% refund if anything goes wrong with the part.

John Hutton

It's probably safer with PayPal from the site then, you can raise a dispute

loughside

unkel wrote: »

You get a full refund and sending the goods back doesn't cost anything either.

Read on down the listing

--> Warranty : 1 year(based on the purchase data): Free repaire,buyer pay for return postage and resend postage

Don`t fancy paying FedEx for the carriage on a 5kg Motor back to Germany AND then on top of that paying for the return trip!!

John Hutton

loughside wrote: »

That Amazon one looks a decent deal, but i`m still not sure they`re from the EU, says shipping 18th - 30th Dec?!

Then theres this one over in Northumberland, does a range of motors, but slightly pricier ..> http://eclipsebikes.com/index.php?cPath=26_27

For me it says it would arrive between 7th and 14th December.... It clearly says it's from Germany so if it's not I reckon there would be some comeback there.

What do you make of pswpower.com itself? Significantly cheaper, again it says they ship from Germany.

unkel

loughside wrote: »

That Amazon one looks a decent deal, but i`m still not sure they`re from the EU, says shipping 18th - 30th Dec?!

It clearly says shipping from Germany, no taxes.

Amazon is very good when it comes to customer service. You get a full refund and sending the goods back doesn't cost anything either.

loughside

That Amazon one looks a decent deal, but i`m still not sure they`re from the EU, says shipping 18th - 30th Dec?!

Then theres this one over in Northumberland, does a range of motors, but slightly pricier ..> http://eclipsebikes.com/index.php?cPath=26_27

John Hutton

John Hutton wrote: »

Those charges are punitive!

Ye are all a treasure trove of information! Thanks I've searched the thread to collate links:

First we have https://www.yosepower.com/en/category/48V-72.html
Has 750 for 452 and the 1000w for 469. (Pounds) Shipping is 20 British pounds. Says that the items are located in Germany. Anyone deal with this site?

Then we have pswpower on Amazon, again says it's from Germany: https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/B07TK99MJ1/ref=ox_sc_act_image_1?smid=A3SCW7S4VL313R&psc=1
365 pounds including delivery.

We also have what appears to be the pswpower direct website: http://www.pswpower.com/ven.php?cargo.2017-61-s29r
Has it for 370 Dollars, again apparently from Germany... I'm very suspicious of this one, anyone use it?

As you discussed a few pages back it may be better to order from their Amazon page given the security that gives?

Although payment is through PayPal so there is some protection there too. They have cheap batteries too but they are probably crap.

John Hutton

unkel wrote: »

Browse up a few pages, John. We've covered that. I posted links to sites that ship from within the EU

That means your supplier fraudulently under declared the value of the product. I had just a motor shipped from the far east a few weeks ago. It paid just €75 for the motor, it was declared at that value, so I had to pay 23% VAT + handling charge of about €14 on that. On a €600 bit of kit, you will owe over €150 in tax and handling :eek:

Those charges are punitive!

Ye are all a treasure trove of information! Thanks I've searched the thread to collate links:

First we have https://www.yosepower.com/en/category/48V-72.html
Has 750 for 452 and the 1000w for 469. (Pounds) Shipping is 20 British pounds. Says that the items are located in Germany. Anyone deal with this site?

Then we have pswpower on Amazon, again says it's from Germany: https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/B07TK99MJ1/ref=ox_sc_act_image_1?smid=A3SCW7S4VL313R&psc=1
365 pounds including delivery.

We also have what appears to be the pswpower direct website: http://www.pswpower.com/ven.php?cargo.2017-61-s29r
Has it for 370 Dollars, again apparently from Germany... I'm very suspicious of this one, anyone use it?

As you discussed a few pages back it may be better to order from their Amazon page given the security that gives?

unkel

John Hutton wrote: »

Is there anywhere I can order from within the EU where I won't get hit with these fees? And be easier to return it should anything go wrong

Browse up a few pages, John. We've covered that. I posted links to sites that ship from within the EU

loughside wrote: »

Customs charge on this my last order, BBSHD kit, via DHL was £32GBP

That means your supplier fraudulently under declared the value of the product. I had just a motor shipped from the far east a few weeks ago. It paid just €75 for the motor, it was declared at that value, so I had to pay 23% VAT + handling charge of about €14 on that. On a €600 bit of kit, you will owe over €150 in tax and handling :eek:

loughside

Customs charge on this my last order, BBSHD kit, via DHL was £32GBP

And no need for anything bigger than a 7-speed cassette, in fact i change two at a time, the torque of the motor compensates, and you can use a stronger chain compared to the 10/11 spd cass.

John Hutton

loughside wrote: »

Pannier storage for a battery should be ok, there`s no particular brand as such it`s what cellls they use inside the casing, one of the reasons i would steer well away from batteries from china, and if one of those 42 cells goes faulty it becomes a nightmare to return. Btw never leave a battery on charge in the house unattended, they can explode and water wont put them out

My BBSHD and 02 Motor purchases were made here, very genuine company, kept me informed all the way, delivery was 10 days https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1720186674.html?spm=2114.12010612.8148356.2.54a74233sCM8s3
they seem to be doing a `black friday` deal at decent money.
Another plus point that hasn`t been mentioned is with these motors the internal controller parameters can be reprogtammed to suit your riding style via your laptop, a cable is included for that from the company above. Thats something you can`t do with your Haibike, Cube etc etc

If you`re still iffy about the battery speak to Jim at Insat, he will advise and wont try to sell you anything, just put away half an hour of your time, he will expain every battery ever made!!

Prices seem very good there, but won't I get hit for customs etc? And it says shipping is free? Seems too good to be true

Is there anywhere I can order from within the EU where I won't get hit with these fees? And be easier to return it should anything go wrong

unkel

Ah yeah, forgot the BBS have the controller built in. I've no doubt I'll get a mid drive at some point too, to make my experience complete

[Deleted User]

unkel wrote: »

If you don't need to go up steep trails and don't need the speed, then the BBS02 is plenty. Also, don't get a 48V battery, get a 52V one instead. And make sure your controller can handle at least 25A continuously. That will give you over 1000W (after losses) to the motor , which can handle it.

Maybe it's just me, some people swear by overpriced batteries, but if you are just carrying the batteries in your panniers and you don't need a fancy battery case on your frame, why not go for cheap "24V" 7S (29.4V when charged) scooter batteries from China? Six of them (2 in series, 3 parallel) will cost you just €150 shipped and will give you a 52V 18Ah battery. That's what I'm doing (I'm getting just 4 of them for €100)

@samih - you chicken!

Unkel, yours is definitely a way to go if you don't need the bike every day. You also learn a lot in the process. The flip side is that if you get drenched on the way to work on a rainy day the bike may not work anymore and then you end up taking it apart at work before heading home. For example.

For easy life you can't go much wrong with the BBS as controller is built-in and automatically protected from the elements. And you don't need to worry about the wheels, just go to any bike shop for a new wheel if needed. And mid drive makes fixing punctures easier also at the roadside (recommend good tyres with puncture protection for a daily btw; Scwalbe Marathons last for 10000+ km and so far didn't have a single puncture this year, jinx).

loughside

John Hutton wrote: »

What should I be looking for beyond the ah size? Are there particular brands I should be looking at? I plan on storing the battery in a rear pannier rather than bolted to the frame, is this practicable? Is there a particular shape battery I should get? Should I buy the battery and motor seperately? YES!

Pannier storage for a battery should be ok, there`s no particular brand as such it`s what cellls they use inside the casing, one of the reasons i would steer well away from batteries from china, and if one of those 42 cells goes faulty it becomes a nightmare to return. Btw never leave a battery on charge in the house unattended, they can explode and water wont put them out

My BBSHD and 02 Motor purchases were made here, very genuine company, kept me informed all the way, delivery was 10 days https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1720186674.html?spm=2114.12010612.8148356.2.54a74233sCM8s3
they seem to be doing a `black friday` deal at decent money.
Another plus point that hasn`t been mentioned is with these motors the internal controller parameters can be reprogtammed to suit your riding style via your laptop, a cable is included for that from the company above. Thats something you can`t do with your Haibike, Cube etc etc

If you`re still iffy about the battery speak to Jim at Insat, he will advise and wont try to sell you anything, just put away half an hour of your time, he will expain every battery ever made!!

unkel

If you don't need to go up steep trails and don't need the speed, then the BBS02 is plenty. Also, don't get a 48V battery, get a 52V one instead. And make sure your controller can handle at least 25A continuously. That will give you over 1000W (after losses) to the motor , which can handle it.

Maybe it's just me, some people swear by overpriced batteries, but if you are just carrying the batteries in your panniers and you don't need a fancy battery case on your frame, why not go for cheap "24V" 7S (29.4V when charged) scooter batteries from China? Six of them (2 in series, 3 parallel) will cost you just €150 shipped and will give you a 52V 18Ah battery. That's what I'm doing (I'm getting just 4 of them for €100)

@samih - you chicken!

[Deleted User]

I picked a BBSHD just for expected reliablity. I have almost 16000 km on the clock since 2017 and it has been very reliable so very happy with it. It's my daily so wanted to maximise the reliablity by overspec'ing it. I normally run at settings that result about 12A max even on uphills to save stress on components like the 10 speed chain. And that trip to Carlow shows that my at that time 2 year old 17.X Ah battery is doing great also. Mine has Sanyo NCR 3500 mAh cells in and I usually charge 4 times a week (every day I commute my 41k round trp).

The latest revision of BBS02B seem very reliable also and it is much cheaper that the HD. One supplier in UK can even sell a "legal" "250W" 48 volt motor kit. I would go for a 48V system to keep the Amps as low as possible as the battery and power electronics have easier life that way.

John Hutton

Thanks guys you have been a massive help.

A few more questions if you don't mind!

Batteries seem to be a mine field. I've decided to go with a 17.5ah at first and buy an extra battery later if needed.

What should I be looking for beyond the ah size? Are there particular brands I should be looking at? I plan on storing the battery in a rear pannier rather than bolted to the frame, is this practicable? Is there a particular shape battery I should get? Should I buy the battery and motor seperately?

I have been pricing on Amazon and there is a set here with battery for about 750 pounds or from German Amazon for 850 euro:
JUNSTAR Mountain Bike Mid-Drive Motor Road Bike Electric Mid Motor Bafang BBS02B 48V 750W (MM G340.750) Bike Conversion Kit With Battery And LCD Display https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B07P7K5KRR/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_V9r3DbQ1149Q2

I have also been thinking about BBS02 vs BBSHD. 750w v 1000w.

Theres a set as per the above with the HD for 1000 euro which is right at the top of the budget.
Motor itself is about 600 pounds.

There's a substantial difference on price between the 750 and 1000w, considering I'll have to buy some accessories too like a gear change sensor and an in cable line brake sensor.

As I'm not too pushed for speed, I say the 750 should be plenty with 120nm loads to help me up hills. The 750 is also smaller and a bit lighter. So unless I want to go very fast (I don't) the BBSHD sounds to me a bit like overkill, and it would also use the battery faster. Am I overlooking anything that should make me consider the BBSHD?

And then there is the question of what display to get!!

[Deleted User]

With the BBSHD I'd be carrying a spare chain that's for sure.

I was running huge torque in some of my hubs and the beauty about hubs is that you don't have to stop the motor to change gears.