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M7 - Naas/Newbridge Bypass Upgrade [Junction 9a now open]

JupiterKid

Following on from the suggestion of a poster, this thread has been set up to discuss the need for widening the M7.

The section of the M7 IMO in immediate need (really a backlog need) for widening is the section from the Maudlins Interchange at Naas to the M9 interchange - basically the original 1983 Naas Bypass and half of the 1993 Newbridge Bypass. Is this likely to proceed in the near future?

Would the central median be wide enough for widening to D3M here? I'm pretty sure it is wide enough on the Newbridge bypass section but I'm not so sure in the case of the Naas Bypass.

Also, what bridges will need to be demolished and rebuilt? Or would it be more practical to drop the hard shoulder through the existing bridges?

What about the proposal a few years back to build a new junction at on the Naas Bypass at Osberstown? Will it still go ahead?

In the longer term, does anyone see a need to widen the M7 to the N7/M8 junction?

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Be well and win

M7 website is saying its 120 kph from Monday 9th

thebiglad

Deleted User wrote: »

Even with the three lanes it's significantly worse driving south now compared to 5 years ago. What will it be like in 5 more?

Well what would it be like without the additonal lane capacity - at least they have done something...

[Deleted User]

Deleted User wrote: »

Even with the three lanes it's significantly worse driving south now compared to 5 years ago. What will it be like in 5 more?

If the expected recession hits hard it will be quiet and freeflowing.

[Deleted User]

Stan27 wrote: »

Have to say going southbound has been a real success.

Except when there's crashes or cars on fire like last week when it was as bad as it ever was during the major works.

Even with the three lanes it's significantly worse driving south now compared to 5 years ago. What will it be like in 5 more?

Stan27

Have to say going southbound has been a real success.

BuzzFish

http://www.kildare.ie/CountyCouncil/PressReleasesAdverts/TemporaryRoadWorksSpeedLimitOrderM9M7N7.html

Confirmed, back to 120 on the 9th as temporary restrictions will lift then 😀

Other than a Facebook post from local councillor still no official confirmation of J9a opening next friday published. Surely it will though.

"This Road Works Speed Limit Order will apply from Sunday, 1 December 2019 to Sunday, 8 December"

spacetweek

I’ve removed off topic posts about driver behaviour and stopping distances. Please keep this thread to construction updates. Next two events are opening of Junctions 9A and 10 in early Dec.

pad199207

Absolute disaster outbound tonight. Cars broken down blocking lanes, cars on fire too.

MaceFace

Tomrota wrote: »

Have you ever used Sallins ... (SNIP)What use is that to someone who wants to go to Sandyford, Citywest, or basically anywhere outside the city centre? (SNIP) travelling in cars?

Firstly, apols for snipping your post, but it was rather long and I was hoping you would bring up this point. A lot of the posts in this thread talk about having 4 tracks to Kildare or P&R around Naas or beyond, but the real problem for most people is exactly this - arriving in Heuston is fine if you work around there or maybe directly in the city center, but terrible if you work anywhere else as it means train, Luas/bus and Dart/bus/walk.
I've done Sallins to Blackrock for 4 years - walk, train, luas, dart, walk, every single day. I know how horrible it is and it simply does not work for parents.
So, building more capacity along the N7 won't help the majority of people because we need an extensive high speed, high frequency Dublin transport system. That is something completely different. Everyone wants it but no one wants to pay the price of suffer the disruption.
That HAS to be central to any solution and more capacity into Heuston is just fluff.

Tomrota

MaceFace wrote: »

There is a high capacity route along the N7 where you can get from Sallins/Naas to Heuston in under 30 mins. Regular commuters can avail of taxsavers tickets. For about €5 per workday, you have unlimited use of train and Dart, including parking in Sallins station.

I do question if you have experience in intercity/town commuting in the big European cities. It's great when you are in the city or most suburbs, but from towns 30kms or more away from a city?

Have you ever used Sallins and seen the parking situation? Yup, that’s not a situation you should see in one of the wealthier European countries. And Sallins to Heuston? What use is that to someone who wants to go to Sandyford, Citywest, or basically anywhere outside the city centre? Even from Heuston you have to take a Luas to get anywhere. My complaint isn’t just about traffic on the N7, it’s the entire system. Imagine having all DART lines constructed, metro north, metro west, and so much more if the government actually ever gave a toss.

As for your other comment, I don’t see what your point is? Are you saying we should continue to sit on the N7 and further every single day and not even think about providing alternatives for where all there cars are magically coming from? If thousands of people are commuting from said place every single day, public transport should be provided. If the government want people to switch from cars to public transport, it has to be even more aggressive. Ever hear of supply induced demand?

Commuting is generally so much easier in many European countries, lots of which are much poorer than Ireland. Find me a commuter town in Europe that still uses diesel trains to get around the city. Let’s take a commute from a commuter town similar in size to Naas - Durango which is the same distance from the city centre of Bilbao as Naas is to Dublin. You can take a look for yourself how much more effective public transport is there, I’m not going to go into detail.

Sorry this is such a long post and kinda off topic but I don’t accept the premise that effective public transport isn’t possible for the city, it’s suburbs, and it’s commuter towns. They all work hand in hand together and if a comprehensive system is designed that makes EVERYONES commutes faster and easier, people will start to switch from their cars. If you blocked off the M1, N7, N4, N3, M11 one morning, you would see the M50 and Dublin’s roads clear and free of traffic. You see Dublin has one of the worst amounts of traffic in Europe according to the independent, and there’s a reason for that- it’s not because of the great job the government is doing.

I don’t get why some people are so against providing transport where 1000’s of car journeys are being made. I want everyone to have the option of using it, not just for easier accessibility, but for mental health and climate change among so many other reasons. In many countries, it is much quicker and cheaper to use transport. Can’t say the same for this country. We could be a model city for public transport, the Dublin-Area shouldn’t be that hard to get around it’s not that big. Can we not do better than Spain? Are we just so exceptional we should continue to do all our travelling in cars?

MaceFace

Tomrota wrote: »

With no integration with LEAP caps and LEAP 90 discount, that is ineffective. Also JJ kavanagh charge ridiculously high fares (3€ from one side of Naas to the other, seriously? You can get from Bray to IKEA for 2.50€). Most people will have to get a second bus or train when they reach the city. So you’d have to pay for parking, pay the high fare, and then pay for another fare. Cheaper to drive.

In order for public transport to work it has to be considerably faster or considerably cheaper than driving, and in most effective circumstances both. The entire N7 corridor doesn’t have either of those benefits, and nobody will leave their cars until its provided by the government.

Put a 5€ toll on the N7 tomorrow and you’d see car numbers won’t drop because there are NO alternatives. People would just pay it. I despise people who suggest tolling the N7 and M50. It we had a public transport network like Amsterdam, actually, if we had one like ANY other EU capital, it would be fine to put a toll on the roads. But we don’t, and never will, because politicians don’t care about it.

There is a high capacity route along the N7 where you can get from Sallins/Naas to Heuston in under 30 mins. Regular commuters can avail of taxsavers tickets. For about €5 per workday, you have unlimited use of train and Dart, including parking in Sallins station.

I do question if you have experience in intercity/town commuting in the big European cities. It's great when you are in the city or most suburbs, but from towns 30kms or more away from a city?

riddlinrussell

Tomrota wrote: »

And yet the Bus Eireann is empty and the JJ is full because it costs about 400€ to get anywhere on that bus lmao.

That’s good that they’re gonna integrate with the LEAP. It seems to bizarre boarding a bus and paying with cash in 2019. It should be done away with on all routes. These buses take so long at bus stops sometimes.

I think the greater issue is if TFI are setting timetables they are essentially ending up with an hourly service running two buses instead of a half hourly service with the exact same resources.

Apparently the reason they hadn't done it yet was that the card readers are incredibly expensive.

antietam1

riddlinrussell wrote: »

An inbound journey shortly before outbound rush hour?

You were both early and going against the tide.

Reason I asked was I did not see a lot of traffic on the other side, so just early then.

Tomrota

riddlinrussell wrote: »

I've heard from JJ.Kavanagh drivers that the company is planning to roll out leap integration in the next year, They were also complaining about their timetabling (apparently this is set by TFI?) The Naas to Dublin bus is scheduled to arrive in Naas at 33 minutes past the hour, while the Bus Eireann arrives at 30 minutes past the hour...

Is completion of the Bypass still scheduled for March?

And yet the Bus Eireann is empty and the JJ is full because it costs about 400€ to get anywhere on that bus lmao.

That’s good that they’re gonna integrate with the LEAP. It seems to bizarre boarding a bus and paying with cash in 2019. It should be done away with on all routes. These buses take so long at bus stops sometimes.

riddlinrussell

antietam1 wrote: »

Left Kildare retail outlet at 3.45 pm last Friday and drove to Red cow with no delays.
Was I just lucky? or early?

An inbound journey shortly before outbound rush hour?

You were both early and going against the tide.

Mantis Toboggan

antietam1 wrote: »

Left Kildare retail outlet at 3.45 pm last Friday and drove to Red cow with no delays.
Was I just lucky? or early?

You were going against the traffic - try it a weekday morning.

antietam1

Left Kildare retail outlet at 3.45 pm last Friday and drove to Red cow with no delays.
Was I just lucky? or early?

riddlinrussell

Tomrota wrote: »

With no integration with LEAP caps and LEAP 90 discount, that is ineffective. Also JJ kavanagh charge ridiculously high fares (3€ from one side of Naas to the other, seriously? You can get from Bray to IKEA for 2.50€). Most people will have to get a second bus or train when they reach the city. So you’d have to pay for parking, pay the high fare, and then pay for another fare. Cheaper to drive.

In order for public transport to work it has to be considerably faster or considerably cheaper than driving, and in most effective circumstances both. The entire N7 corridor doesn’t have either of those benefits, and nobody will leave their cars until its provided by the government.

Put a 5€ toll on the N7 tomorrow and you’d see car numbers won’t drop because there are NO alternatives. People would just pay it. I despise people who suggest tolling the N7 and M50. It we had a public transport network like Amsterdam, actually, if we had one like ANY other EU capital, it would be fine to put a toll on the roads. But we don’t, and never will, because politicians don’t care about it.

I've heard from JJ.Kavanagh drivers that the company is planning to roll out leap integration in the next year, They were also complaining about their timetabling (apparently this is set by TFI?) The Naas to Dublin bus is scheduled to arrive in Naas at 33 minutes past the hour, while the Bus Eireann arrives at 30 minutes past the hour...

Is completion of the Bypass still scheduled for March?

Tomrota

BuzzFish wrote: »

Wouldn't be be great if a JJ Kavanagh or other large reputable bus operator bought a parcel of land in Naas millenium Park or close by and got a license to run direct to Dublin city center. Private enterprise P&R.

Once successful that 3rd lane could become a bus corridor at peak times.

They'd do for Kildare, Laois and Carlow commuters what quickpark did for Dublin airport parking. Competition = efficiency and cost control. Whole other thread though, but there must be a business case in it. There are good bus services to Dublin from Naas but nowhere for commuters to park.

With no integration with LEAP caps and LEAP 90 discount, that is ineffective. Also JJ kavanagh charge ridiculously high fares (3€ from one side of Naas to the other, seriously? You can get from Bray to IKEA for 2.50€). Most people will have to get a second bus or train when they reach the city. So you’d have to pay for parking, pay the high fare, and then pay for another fare. Cheaper to drive.

In order for public transport to work it has to be considerably faster or considerably cheaper than driving, and in most effective circumstances both. The entire N7 corridor doesn’t have either of those benefits, and nobody will leave their cars until its provided by the government.

Put a 5€ toll on the N7 tomorrow and you’d see car numbers won’t drop because there are NO alternatives. People would just pay it. I despise people who suggest tolling the N7 and M50. It we had a public transport network like Amsterdam, actually, if we had one like ANY other EU capital, it would be fine to put a toll on the roads. But we don’t, and never will, because politicians don’t care about it.

Cazale

Drove through the works last night around 2am and there was loads of works on the northbound side. Around ten different crews involved.

BuzzFish

Wouldn't be be great if a JJ Kavanagh or other large reputable bus operator bought a parcel of land in Naas millenium Park or close by and got a license to run direct to Dublin city center. Private enterprise P&R.

Once successful that 3rd lane could become a bus corridor at peak times.

They'd do for Kildare, Laois and Carlow commuters what quickpark did for Dublin airport parking. Competition = efficiency and cost control. Whole other thread though, but there must be a business case in it. There are good bus services to Dublin from Naas but nowhere for commuters to park.

tom1ie

MaceFace wrote: »

The problem extending to 4 lanes past Hazelhatch is there is no space in Sallins - just look at a satellite image and you see the school and shops/apartments in the Waterways and then on the other side of the Sallins road are housing estates.

Regardless of that, the bigger problem is the train only brings people to Heuston which is fine if you work around there or maybe bang in the city center. For people who need to go to Blackrock, Sandyford, UCD, East Wall, even Merrion Square, that means a Bus/Luas and/or Dart as well. Door to door, it just doesn't work for many people.
And just thinking about it - the vast majority of people on the N7 in the mornings join the M50 (or get off at Citywest) suggesting that not many are heading to the city unless they head to the N4?

Yeah which is why the express busses from this theoretical p+r would have to stop at key interchange points for bus orbital routes, heavy rail stations, Luas stations and cycle stations
Again though, this is not something our minister for transport is capable of suggesting to the nta, nor does he want the hassle.

donvito99

MaceFace wrote: »

It may be but it’s quicker to drive.
As Hazelhatch isn’t ain’t the n7 though, look at Sallins. Still quicker by car from Blackrock during rush hour. That’s the point, encouraging people out of their cars.
I done that route Sallins-Blackrock for a few years about 10 years ago. There were a few of us who did and it was horrendous. Always stressing about making connections or having to wait for another 20 mins.

If we had invested in the railway with the same eagerness as we did the roads, we'd be laughing.

Dart Underground, as was proposed, would have allowed for high speed access from Sallins to Pearse, and then it's about 20minutes by Dart to Blackrock, etc. Would also have seen a massive increase in frequency, reliability and capacity. But we through a few billion at the M50 widening and now we're talking about outer M50, bypass of the N11....

MaceFace

donvito99 wrote: »

Given the distance involved, an hour from Hazelhatch to Blackrock is very reasonable.

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Hazelhatch,+Co.+Dublin/Blackrock,+Dublin/@53.334854,-6.4910867,11z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m19!4m18!1m5!1m1!1s0x48677115f85c8629:0x2600c7a7bb54d022!2m2!1d-6.5189387!2d53.3221966!1m5!1m1!1s0x486708c6c593433b:0x849955b6c2e83605!2m2!1d-6.1778335!2d53.3021597!2m4!5e0!5e1!5e2!5e3!3e3

It may be but it’s quicker to drive.
As Hazelhatch isn’t ain’t the n7 though, look at Sallins. Still quicker by car from Blackrock during rush hour. That’s the point, encouraging people out of their cars.
I done that route Sallins-Blackrock for a few years about 10 years ago. There were a few of us who did and it was horrendous. Always stressing about making connections or having to wait for another 20 mins.

donvito99

MaceFace wrote: »

You mean Phoenix Park tunnel?
Yes, but it is an hour from sallins to grand canal so door to door by train for most people will be a very long commute.

Given the distance involved, an hour from Hazelhatch to Blackrock is very reasonable.

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Hazelhatch,+Co.+Dublin/Blackrock,+Dublin/@53.334854,-6.4910867,11z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m19!4m18!1m5!1m1!1s0x48677115f85c8629:0x2600c7a7bb54d022!2m2!1d-6.5189387!2d53.3221966!1m5!1m1!1s0x486708c6c593433b:0x849955b6c2e83605!2m2!1d-6.1778335!2d53.3021597!2m4!5e0!5e1!5e2!5e3!3e3

MaceFace

Tom Cruises Left Nut wrote: »

Trains go through the tunnel to meet the other line though

You mean Phoenix Park tunnel?
Yes, but it is an hour from sallins to grand canal so door to door by train for most people will be a very long commute.

Tom Cruises Left Nut

MaceFace wrote: »

The problem extending to 4 lanes past Hazelhatch is there is no space in Sallins - just look at a satellite image and you see the school and shops/apartments in the Waterways and then on the other side of the Sallins road are housing estates.

Regardless of that, the bigger problem is the train only brings people to Heuston which is fine if you work around there or maybe bang in the city center. For people who need to go to Blackrock, Sandyford, UCD, East Wall, even Merrion Square, that means a Bus/Luas and/or Dart as well. Door to door, it just doesn't work for many people.
And just thinking about it - the vast majority of people on the N7 in the mornings join the M50 (or get off at Citywest) suggesting that not many are heading to the city unless they head to the N4?

Trains go through the tunnel to meet the other line though

MaceFace

BuzzFish wrote: »

There was talk of a P&R off the new J9a on the opposite side to Kerry Group. Not only could you put a P&R for buses in there, but you could add a new train station as the Arrow passes by. No forward thinking though. Even to create it for buses right now and add the train later once they (will they ever!!) add the extra 2 train lines to Kildare to allow more frequent arrow with impacting intercity.
Sallins station is just too small and parking is too tight to increase passenger numbers any further.

The problem extending to 4 lanes past Hazelhatch is there is no space in Sallins - just look at a satellite image and you see the school and shops/apartments in the Waterways and then on the other side of the Sallins road are housing estates.

Regardless of that, the bigger problem is the train only brings people to Heuston which is fine if you work around there or maybe bang in the city center. For people who need to go to Blackrock, Sandyford, UCD, East Wall, even Merrion Square, that means a Bus/Luas and/or Dart as well. Door to door, it just doesn't work for many people.
And just thinking about it - the vast majority of people on the N7 in the mornings join the M50 (or get off at Citywest) suggesting that not many are heading to the city unless they head to the N4?

harr

I had the misfortune of traveling to the airport a number of times last week during rush hour ... traveling from Portlaoise and it was a complete nightmare... most the people I was dropping up were from various European capitals and they were taken aback by how inaccessible the airport was. A park and ride on N7 with links to city and a fast link is the airport would be a god send.

BuzzFish

tom1ie wrote: »

Good ideas. It’s amazing that they haven’t built a p+r just off the n7, and then run high frequency busses into the city, via a qbc along the n7, from the p+r. There could be strategic stops along the way to allow the p+r bus to integrate with existing pt, to allow people to change modes or busses.
In time, when this idea is found to work, the qbc could be upgraded to a metro.

There was talk of a P&R off the new J9a on the opposite side to Kerry Group. Not only could you put a P&R for buses in there, but you could add a new train station as the Arrow passes by. No forward thinking though. Even to create it for buses right now and add the train later once they (will they ever!!) add the extra 2 train lines to Kildare to allow more frequent arrow with impacting intercity.
Sallins station is just too small and parking is too tight to increase passenger numbers any further.