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The eBike thread

unkel

A quick look seems that this doesn't really seem to fit in the cycling forum. So starting a thread here about all things eBike

I'll get the ball rolling. I have zero experience with eBikes. But I was going to build myself a battery anyway, for various reasons (like in bringing with me in my EV as a "petrol can")

I'm going to buy a solderless kit to make the battery (with 18650 cells I have removed from dead / old laptop batteries). This kit cah handle 20A max, and I would like the battery pack to produce 1kW constant. P=V*I so 1000W = 50V * 20A

This dictates that my battery needs to be nominal 48V (was thinking of making a 24V battery pack, but that won't be able to charge my car)

A quick browse on eBay and Amazon shows that you could buy a powerful 1000W bike conversion kit with everything needed except the battery for about GBP120 (a bit more from Amazon but peace of mind)

What to buy though, front wheel or rear wheel kit? Pros and cons? Any other advice?

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kiely182

John Hutton wrote: »

Loughside says he gets 80miles, this is confusing.

I built a 1500w direct drive hub motor kit i also have 2100wh of batteries i can average 27mph over a 50mile route. i could probably do more but if there is a headwind range drops massively so i need a buffer. i havent been out in two weeks as i broke my wrist when the bike slipped on black ice. ive done over 4000 miles in 8 months.I go out in all conditions but probaly wont ride on frosty days any more.

loughside

John Hutton wrote: »

Loughside says he gets 80miles, this is confusing.

sorry John, getting my kms to miles mixed up, i would give an approx of 60 miles max, now thats dependant on a lot of things, obviously what cells the battery guy uses, how heavy is the bike plus yourself, how many hills along the route, the weather/wind and how much you wish to put in yourself, gearing would also come into it as well. Is this journey for touring or to a destination or what?

John Hutton

loughside wrote: »

sorry John, getting my kms to miles mixed up, i would give an approx of 60 miles max, now thats dependant on a lot of things, obviously what cells the battery guy uses, how heavy is the bike plus yourself, how many hills along the route, the weather/wind and how much you wish to put in yourself, gearing would also come into it as well. Is this journey for touring or to a destination or what?

Well I would use it weekly for leisure spins which would average at about 20 to 30 km as well as the odd spin to the shops or friends house. I do this already on a normal bike.

The main intent would be for a tour in the summer around ireland, staying in hotels/airbnbs where I would have access to recharge. As I said I'm not worried about speed, it's more to flatten hills and help with some headwinds so I'd say id have it on a low setting, I won't be sitting on the throttle for the tour. I'd only look for some decent speed on the tour in the unlikely situation I'm running really late.

I just had 100km in my head as the max I'd do in a day, probably wouldn't do that but it would be nice to have a cushion.

I could always get one battery now, and at a later stage buy another and just dump it in a pannier to swap when one dies? This might be an idea as I won't need that distance on a day to day basis.

[Deleted User]

John Hutton: I cycled on my BBSHD (just one pannier, no other luggage) based hybrid bike Leixlip -> Carlow in the summer. I kept the speed at around 30 km/h (Average speed was 27.9 km/h) and pedalled a lot myself (avg HR 133 bpm). Did 84.85 km after getting lost a couple of times and the 48V/17Ah battery would have lasted for another 10 km max I think.

Cycling with assistance at 25 km/h and lower power levels on uphills 100 km should be doable with my bike/motor/battery/rider combo. But if there is headwind or cold weather forget about it.

Joe1919

John Hutton wrote: »

Well I would use it weekly for leisure spins which would average at about 20 to 30 km as well as the odd spin to the shops or friends house. I do this already on a normal bike.

The main intent would be for a tour in the summer around ireland, staying in hotels/airbnbs where I would have access to recharge. As I said I'm not worried about speed, it's more to flatten hills and help with some headwinds so I'd say id have it on a low setting, I won't be sitting on the throttle for the tour. I'd only look for some decent speed on the tour in the unlikely situation I'm running really late.

I just had 100km in my head as the max I'd do in a day, probably wouldn't do that but it would be nice to have a cushion.

I could always get one battery now, and at a later stage buy another and just dump it in a pannier to swap when one dies? This might be an idea as I won't need that distance on a day to day basis.

John
I weigh about 95 kg. My legs are not very strong.e.g. On a push bike, it would take me over an hour to cycle 8 miles and I would be be exhausted after that for a while. Anyhow, on my yose 350 geared hub carrying 2 batteries in parallel (23ah X 36= 820w total), I have completed 80km journeys at about 24km/hr max speed with no severe headwind or hills.
I reckon 100km would be relatively easy for you to achieve as (from your post) you are way fitter than I am.

unkel

John Hutton wrote: »

I could always get one battery now, and at a later stage buy another and just dump it in a pannier to swap when one dies? This might be an idea as I won't need that distance on a day to day basis.

Absolutely. If you don't really need to do 100km, then you don't really need 1.4kWh in batteries just yet.

[Deleted User]

I was able to do 55 Kms easily with the Bosch mid drive, plenty of steep hills and lots of peddling and still have over 50% of the battery, and that was around 400 watt hrs, 36v 14 Ah , just bike and myself, fine weather and no panniers.

50 Nm of torque I wished for more but I was still able to get up Mount Leinster all the same, right to the TV mast but it was very tough even with the motor.

They are up to 75 Nm these days but they still sell a smaller and lighter 50 Nm.

55 Km with 500 watt hrs and some steep hills. Not bad, but as I said all I had was 50 Nm with the BBSHD it will have over twice the power and the more power the more battery you will use and faster.

Some of these motors can create some drag when the motor is off, the Bosch motor is known for this and I certainly noticed increased resistance, I think they have resolved this on this years models, I don't know what the BBSHD is like to pedal without motor assistance.

The BBS 02 is probably going to provide all the power you need and be easier on the battery but the BBSHD should haul anything you can put on the bike easily.

unkel

BBSHD has 150Nm torque and 1000W as standard but it can handle a lot more than that.

That torque is almost the same as my best mate's BMW K1600 6 cylinder motor bike

[Deleted User]

With the BBSHD I'd be carrying a spare chain that's for sure.

I was running huge torque in some of my hubs and the beauty about hubs is that you don't have to stop the motor to change gears.

John Hutton

Thanks guys you have been a massive help.

A few more questions if you don't mind!

Batteries seem to be a mine field. I've decided to go with a 17.5ah at first and buy an extra battery later if needed.

What should I be looking for beyond the ah size? Are there particular brands I should be looking at? I plan on storing the battery in a rear pannier rather than bolted to the frame, is this practicable? Is there a particular shape battery I should get? Should I buy the battery and motor seperately?

I have been pricing on Amazon and there is a set here with battery for about 750 pounds or from German Amazon for 850 euro:
JUNSTAR Mountain Bike Mid-Drive Motor Road Bike Electric Mid Motor Bafang BBS02B 48V 750W (MM G340.750) Bike Conversion Kit With Battery And LCD Display https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B07P7K5KRR/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_V9r3DbQ1149Q2

I have also been thinking about BBS02 vs BBSHD. 750w v 1000w.

Theres a set as per the above with the HD for 1000 euro which is right at the top of the budget.
Motor itself is about 600 pounds.

There's a substantial difference on price between the 750 and 1000w, considering I'll have to buy some accessories too like a gear change sensor and an in cable line brake sensor.

As I'm not too pushed for speed, I say the 750 should be plenty with 120nm loads to help me up hills. The 750 is also smaller and a bit lighter. So unless I want to go very fast (I don't) the BBSHD sounds to me a bit like overkill, and it would also use the battery faster. Am I overlooking anything that should make me consider the BBSHD?

And then there is the question of what display to get!!

[Deleted User]

I picked a BBSHD just for expected reliablity. I have almost 16000 km on the clock since 2017 and it has been very reliable so very happy with it. It's my daily so wanted to maximise the reliablity by overspec'ing it. I normally run at settings that result about 12A max even on uphills to save stress on components like the 10 speed chain. And that trip to Carlow shows that my at that time 2 year old 17.X Ah battery is doing great also. Mine has Sanyo NCR 3500 mAh cells in and I usually charge 4 times a week (every day I commute my 41k round trp).

The latest revision of BBS02B seem very reliable also and it is much cheaper that the HD. One supplier in UK can even sell a "legal" "250W" 48 volt motor kit. I would go for a 48V system to keep the Amps as low as possible as the battery and power electronics have easier life that way.

unkel

If you don't need to go up steep trails and don't need the speed, then the BBS02 is plenty. Also, don't get a 48V battery, get a 52V one instead. And make sure your controller can handle at least 25A continuously. That will give you over 1000W (after losses) to the motor , which can handle it.

Maybe it's just me, some people swear by overpriced batteries, but if you are just carrying the batteries in your panniers and you don't need a fancy battery case on your frame, why not go for cheap "24V" 7S (29.4V when charged) scooter batteries from China? Six of them (2 in series, 3 parallel) will cost you just €150 shipped and will give you a 52V 18Ah battery. That's what I'm doing (I'm getting just 4 of them for €100)

@samih - you chicken!

loughside

John Hutton wrote: »

What should I be looking for beyond the ah size? Are there particular brands I should be looking at? I plan on storing the battery in a rear pannier rather than bolted to the frame, is this practicable? Is there a particular shape battery I should get? Should I buy the battery and motor seperately? YES!

Pannier storage for a battery should be ok, there`s no particular brand as such it`s what cellls they use inside the casing, one of the reasons i would steer well away from batteries from china, and if one of those 42 cells goes faulty it becomes a nightmare to return. Btw never leave a battery on charge in the house unattended, they can explode and water wont put them out

My BBSHD and 02 Motor purchases were made here, very genuine company, kept me informed all the way, delivery was 10 days https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1720186674.html?spm=2114.12010612.8148356.2.54a74233sCM8s3
they seem to be doing a `black friday` deal at decent money.
Another plus point that hasn`t been mentioned is with these motors the internal controller parameters can be reprogtammed to suit your riding style via your laptop, a cable is included for that from the company above. Thats something you can`t do with your Haibike, Cube etc etc

If you`re still iffy about the battery speak to Jim at Insat, he will advise and wont try to sell you anything, just put away half an hour of your time, he will expain every battery ever made!!

[Deleted User]

unkel wrote: »

If you don't need to go up steep trails and don't need the speed, then the BBS02 is plenty. Also, don't get a 48V battery, get a 52V one instead. And make sure your controller can handle at least 25A continuously. That will give you over 1000W (after losses) to the motor , which can handle it.

Maybe it's just me, some people swear by overpriced batteries, but if you are just carrying the batteries in your panniers and you don't need a fancy battery case on your frame, why not go for cheap "24V" 7S (29.4V when charged) scooter batteries from China? Six of them (2 in series, 3 parallel) will cost you just €150 shipped and will give you a 52V 18Ah battery. That's what I'm doing (I'm getting just 4 of them for €100)

@samih - you chicken!

Unkel, yours is definitely a way to go if you don't need the bike every day. You also learn a lot in the process. The flip side is that if you get drenched on the way to work on a rainy day the bike may not work anymore and then you end up taking it apart at work before heading home. For example.

For easy life you can't go much wrong with the BBS as controller is built-in and automatically protected from the elements. And you don't need to worry about the wheels, just go to any bike shop for a new wheel if needed. And mid drive makes fixing punctures easier also at the roadside (recommend good tyres with puncture protection for a daily btw; Scwalbe Marathons last for 10000+ km and so far didn't have a single puncture this year, jinx).

unkel

Ah yeah, forgot the BBS have the controller built in. I've no doubt I'll get a mid drive at some point too, to make my experience complete

John Hutton

loughside wrote: »

Pannier storage for a battery should be ok, there`s no particular brand as such it`s what cellls they use inside the casing, one of the reasons i would steer well away from batteries from china, and if one of those 42 cells goes faulty it becomes a nightmare to return. Btw never leave a battery on charge in the house unattended, they can explode and water wont put them out

My BBSHD and 02 Motor purchases were made here, very genuine company, kept me informed all the way, delivery was 10 days https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1720186674.html?spm=2114.12010612.8148356.2.54a74233sCM8s3
they seem to be doing a `black friday` deal at decent money.
Another plus point that hasn`t been mentioned is with these motors the internal controller parameters can be reprogtammed to suit your riding style via your laptop, a cable is included for that from the company above. Thats something you can`t do with your Haibike, Cube etc etc

If you`re still iffy about the battery speak to Jim at Insat, he will advise and wont try to sell you anything, just put away half an hour of your time, he will expain every battery ever made!!

Prices seem very good there, but won't I get hit for customs etc? And it says shipping is free? Seems too good to be true

Is there anywhere I can order from within the EU where I won't get hit with these fees? And be easier to return it should anything go wrong

loughside

Customs charge on this my last order, BBSHD kit, via DHL was £32GBP

And no need for anything bigger than a 7-speed cassette, in fact i change two at a time, the torque of the motor compensates, and you can use a stronger chain compared to the 10/11 spd cass.

unkel

John Hutton wrote: »

Is there anywhere I can order from within the EU where I won't get hit with these fees? And be easier to return it should anything go wrong

Browse up a few pages, John. We've covered that. I posted links to sites that ship from within the EU

loughside wrote: »

Customs charge on this my last order, BBSHD kit, via DHL was £32GBP

That means your supplier fraudulently under declared the value of the product. I had just a motor shipped from the far east a few weeks ago. It paid just €75 for the motor, it was declared at that value, so I had to pay 23% VAT + handling charge of about €14 on that. On a €600 bit of kit, you will owe over €150 in tax and handling :eek:

John Hutton

unkel wrote: »

Browse up a few pages, John. We've covered that. I posted links to sites that ship from within the EU

That means your supplier fraudulently under declared the value of the product. I had just a motor shipped from the far east a few weeks ago. It paid just €75 for the motor, it was declared at that value, so I had to pay 23% VAT + handling charge of about €14 on that. On a €600 bit of kit, you will owe over €150 in tax and handling :eek:

Those charges are punitive!

Ye are all a treasure trove of information! Thanks I've searched the thread to collate links:

First we have https://www.yosepower.com/en/category/48V-72.html
Has 750 for 452 and the 1000w for 469. (Pounds) Shipping is 20 British pounds. Says that the items are located in Germany. Anyone deal with this site?

Then we have pswpower on Amazon, again says it's from Germany: https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/B07TK99MJ1/ref=ox_sc_act_image_1?smid=A3SCW7S4VL313R&psc=1
365 pounds including delivery.

We also have what appears to be the pswpower direct website: http://www.pswpower.com/ven.php?cargo.2017-61-s29r
Has it for 370 Dollars, again apparently from Germany... I'm very suspicious of this one, anyone use it?

As you discussed a few pages back it may be better to order from their Amazon page given the security that gives?

John Hutton

John Hutton wrote: »

Those charges are punitive!

Ye are all a treasure trove of information! Thanks I've searched the thread to collate links:

First we have https://www.yosepower.com/en/category/48V-72.html
Has 750 for 452 and the 1000w for 469. (Pounds) Shipping is 20 British pounds. Says that the items are located in Germany. Anyone deal with this site?

Then we have pswpower on Amazon, again says it's from Germany: https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/B07TK99MJ1/ref=ox_sc_act_image_1?smid=A3SCW7S4VL313R&psc=1
365 pounds including delivery.

We also have what appears to be the pswpower direct website: http://www.pswpower.com/ven.php?cargo.2017-61-s29r
Has it for 370 Dollars, again apparently from Germany... I'm very suspicious of this one, anyone use it?

As you discussed a few pages back it may be better to order from their Amazon page given the security that gives?

Although payment is through PayPal so there is some protection there too. They have cheap batteries too but they are probably crap.

loughside

That Amazon one looks a decent deal, but i`m still not sure they`re from the EU, says shipping 18th - 30th Dec?!

Then theres this one over in Northumberland, does a range of motors, but slightly pricier ..> http://eclipsebikes.com/index.php?cPath=26_27

unkel

loughside wrote: »

That Amazon one looks a decent deal, but i`m still not sure they`re from the EU, says shipping 18th - 30th Dec?!

It clearly says shipping from Germany, no taxes.

Amazon is very good when it comes to customer service. You get a full refund and sending the goods back doesn't cost anything either.

John Hutton

loughside wrote: »

That Amazon one looks a decent deal, but i`m still not sure they`re from the EU, says shipping 18th - 30th Dec?!

Then theres this one over in Northumberland, does a range of motors, but slightly pricier ..> http://eclipsebikes.com/index.php?cPath=26_27

For me it says it would arrive between 7th and 14th December.... It clearly says it's from Germany so if it's not I reckon there would be some comeback there.

What do you make of pswpower.com itself? Significantly cheaper, again it says they ship from Germany.

loughside

unkel wrote: »

You get a full refund and sending the goods back doesn't cost anything either.

Read on down the listing

--> Warranty : 1 year(based on the purchase data): Free repaire,buyer pay for return postage and resend postage

Don`t fancy paying FedEx for the carriage on a 5kg Motor back to Germany AND then on top of that paying for the return trip!!

John Hutton

It's probably safer with PayPal from the site then, you can raise a dispute

unkel

loughside wrote: »

Read on down the listing

--> Warranty : 1 year(based on the purchase data): Free repaire,buyer pay for return postage and resend postage

Don`t fancy paying FedEx for the carriage on a 5kg Motor back to Germany AND then on top of that paying for the return trip!!

Amazon's customer service should override whatever the manufacturer offers. So I would still expect a free return and 100% refund if anything goes wrong with the part.

John Hutton

Just for those following, I have a thread here: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=103460&p=1513614#p1513614

Basically I got the 750w motor, 17.5ah battery (will have to see how good this actually is) and charger, gear sensor, brake sensors, new Shimano QR skewer and a surly hurdy gurdy for a grand total of 760euro including delivery.

If it all arrives I think that's a decent deal.

Interesting point made in that thread about the forward facing semi horizontal dropouts on my bike and the chance of the axel slipping forward under heavy load. This actually happened once to me on that bike, but that was mainly due to paint on the drop out from when I sprayed the frame. Since I sanded it it hasn't happened even with the cheap QR skewer I currently have. Hopefully the new QR and the surly hurdy gurdy (stupid name for what seems a decent bit of kit) will stop any slippage. But we will see!

Reckon I have missed anything? I have a good set of tools for bike building so unless there is some sort of unique bafang tool needed I should be ok there.

Joe1919

John Hutton wrote: »

Just for those following, I have a thread here: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=103460&p=1513614#p1513614

Reckon I have missed anything? I have a good set of tools for bike building so unless there is some sort of unique bafang tool needed I should be ok there.

John, I would definitely fit that 4kg battery on the downtube where its supposed to go. I had problems before with a heavy battery causing a shimmy and also making the bike unbalanced by putting too much weight in the rear. Rear batteries work ok with front hubs (as they counterbalance) and are often necessary with low step thru bikes.Remember also that you might be adding additional weight if touring.
I would also fit an mtb type solid bolt on axle in the rear hub as it far more secure than a quick release.

John Hutton

Joe1919 wrote: »

John, I would definitely fit that 4kg battery on the downtube where its supposed to go. I had problems before with a heavy battery causing a shimmy and also making the bike unbalanced by putting too much weight in the rear. Rear batteries work ok with front hubs (as they counterbalance) and are often necessary with low step thru bikes.Remember also that you might be adding additional weight if touring.
I would also fit an mtb type solid bolt on axle in the rear hub as it far more secure than a quick release.

Cheers Joe, I think you're right, I'll stick in on the downtube.

I'm gonna try the new skewer and the surly hurdy gurdy thing first. I'm reluctant to lose the quick release, much more likely to get a puncture at the rear and I don't wanna get stuck with a flat.

If my set up doesn't work I'll switch to the solid bolt.

loughside

Hi john, I take it you checked your BB size and all is ok?
Your rear QR `should` be ok, i have that on my HD conversion so far holding up ok, tho saying that i never have to go over PAS4 (out of nine) so try to keep torque in check
You may need this spanner.. see pic.. you`ll find this has to be really tight
The left crank will come loose over time, needs Loctite or similar
If you`re not using the brake levers provided, one of the brake sensors is enough
And before you fit whip off the motor cover, six Allens iirc, and check there`s enough grease on those steel cogs, its common to find little or no grease in there, use AeroShell or similar not the ordinary stuff.
The loom will also be too long, i tidied it into one of those bar bags.
Programming software can be dowmloaded here https://www.poweredride.com/info/bbshd-and-bbs02-configuration-programming-resources
I read in PSW`s ad this `Hot rod programmed for ultimate performance` not something i`d recommend, i`d pull the amps down to 20 for starters, when you`re touring you dont want everything running at peak power.

good luck with the build, you`ll like it!