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Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

[Deleted User]

Continued from here
https://touch.boards.ie/thread/2057953711/251
All Ireland Senior XV related talk here.

MOD: Bear in mind this thread is starting during the World Cup window and the zero tolerance policy is in force. Trolling will be rewarded with an instant ban. For the duration of the tournament any mention of Zebo in this thread will not be permitted, it is just dragging current Ireland squad talk off topic.

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sydthebeat

Love it....!!

jacothelad

damianmcr wrote: »

Id rather Sexton never picked again.

He is still the best 10. None of the others stand out as being his immediate replacement at the moment. The day will come when one will have to step in and step up. Until that day comes - in any position - we should chose the clearly outstanding players most likely to drive Ireland to win. Jettisoning him prematurely would be an error of judgement i.m.o. If there is little to choose between a 'veteran' and a younger player then the choice would be easier.

One positive we have is that all of the likely 'pretenders' are quite young and one might burst from the pack to become his heir apparent. I have always felt that the Irish and provincial teams are often too reluctant to blood real high potential young guys with promise.

bilston

Clegg wrote: »

Based off last weekend.

Healy
Kelleher
Furlong
Toner
Ryan
Ruddock
VDF
Deegan
McGrath
Sexton
Stockdale
Henshaw
Ringrose
Larmour
Kearney.

The subtle, yet effective inclusion of Stockdale was a masterstroke.

Clegg

bilston wrote: »

The subtle, yet effective inclusion of Stockdale was a masterstroke.

Was considering Zebo, but he'd take up the entire back three by himself.

Buer

jacothelad wrote: »

He is still the best 10. None of the others stand out as being his immediate replacement at the moment. The day will come when one will have to step in and step up. Until that day comes - in any position - we should chose the clearly outstanding players most likely to drive Ireland to win. Jettisoning him prematurely would be an error of judgement i.m.o. If there is little to choose between a 'veteran' and a younger player then the choice would be easier.

I think the last fortnight has shown two things:

- Sexton is still our best available 10.
- There's a gulf between club rugby and test rugby (which shouldn't need stating but it does) and I don't expect these showings to necessarily translate into great test performances

With Sexton's coming towards the end of his career, we need to provide game time to others. Half the problem is that we're not even certain who the heir apparent is any longer. It was undoubtedly Carbery 12 months ago but injuries and a generally mediocre/average Irish career to date hasn't exactly made it a certainty.

I think Sexton still needs to start the big games but we cannot be reluctant to afford game time to others either coming on early or starting games we expect to win i.e. Italy in Dublin, a couple of November internationals or even a couple of top tier games with Sexton coming on for the last 30 minutes. Sexton seems fairly bullish about staying around for a while yet and I think he'll be involved at least until 2021 in some capacity.

Niallof9

thomond2006 wrote: »

Rugbypass are ragebait. I wouldn't take it seriously.

Ragebait? Yeah their stats are just plucked from thin air

This is the issue in Irish rugby. People are oblivious to the reaility of how much stats the lads use. I know professional analysts and this is the bible for lads, rugby pass have some of the best free stats available. All the other nitty gritty stuff is paid for by the teams. Ovbiously its only one part. But we often hear how good Jimmy Ryan is. His stats on rugby pass bear that out. We often hear POM is the invisible man in international rugby. His stats bear that out. Obviously ruck stats would give a bit more to POM, but the gist of it is there.

We have people picking Kearney. the lad is finished in an Irish shirt. He might be picked but he doesn't have the attacking game to justify his place in a non one dimensional system.

McCloskey's stats place him 6th best centre - again people placing nonsense standards on non squad players. Look at JJ, great game, great passing. Misses one drop goal...oh the lad is **** etc.

Cooney not good enough is another gem..the two of them were the best Irish players statistically and performance wise last season.

Now its a leap obviously from club to country but what justification have some of the incumbents shown recently?

I can only pray that Andy doesn't place as much faith in the old than some people on here.

aloooof

Niallof9 wrote: »

Ragebait? Yeah their stats are just plucked from thin air

This is the issue in Irish rugby. People are oblivious to the reaility of how much stats the lads use. I know professional analysts and this is the bible for lads, rugby pass have some of the best free stats available. All the other nitty gritty stuff is paid for by the teams. Ovbiously its only one part. But we often hear how good Jimmy Ryan is. His stats on rugby pass bear that out. We often hear POM is the invisible man in international rugby. His stats bear that out. Obviously ruck stats would give a bit more to POM, but the gist of it is there.

We have people picking Kearney. the lad is finished in an Irish shirt. He might be picked but he doesn't have the attacking game to justify his place in a non one dimensional system.

McCloskey's stats place him 6th best centre - again people placing nonsense standards on non squad players. Look at JJ, great game, great passing. Misses one drop goal...oh the lad is **** etc.

Cooney not good enough is another gem..the two of them were the best Irish players statistically and performance wise.

Now its a leap obviously from club to country but what justification have some of the incumbents shown recently?

I don't think people are oblivious, to be honest. And the IRFU will have exponentially more stats available to them than rugby pass, or any other media outlet you want to name.

But equally, stats aren't the be-all and end-all. For example, Ringrose's missed tackle stats are occasionally quite high. But that's because he's very good at identifying when to shoot. This in turn slows the attacking player down behind the gainline and often, the assist tackler will come in to complete the tackle.

The attacking team will have lost ground, but it'll go down as a negative stat for Ringrose. The stat doesn't tell the full story.

Niallof9

aloooof wrote: »

I don't think people are oblivious, to be honest. And the IRFU will have exponentially more stats available to them than rugby pass, or any other media outlet you want to name.

But equally, stats aren't the be-all and end-all. For example, Ringrose's missed tackle stats are occasionally quite high. But that's because he's very good at identifying when to shoot. This in turn slows the attacking player down behind the gainline and often, the assist tackle will come in the complete the tackle.

The attacking team will have lost ground, but it'll go down as a negative stat for Ringrose. The stat doesn't tell the full story.

I know i said that. I know they pay for the privilege.

I also said the latter part.

But i'm arguing that certain sites can't be dismissed as "ragebait" nor can certain players be dimissed because they fall outside the golden circle. McCloskey and Cooney two players dismissed out of hand on this thread in the last few pages, despite the reality being that they are two form players on the Island.

Faugheen

Niallof9 wrote: »

I know i said that. I know they pay for the privilege.

I also said the latter part.

But i'm arguing that certain sites can't be dismissed as "ragebait" nor can certain players be dimissed because they fall outside the golden circle. McCloskey and Cooney two players dismissed out of hand on this thread in the last few pages, despite the reality being that they are two form players on the Island.

You’re just as guilty of dismissing players out of hand to be fair.

And they’re the two form players on the island in your opinion. I for one think Van Der Flier is playing at a level nobody else is touching at the moment, and McCloskey wasn’t great against Clermont.

Niallof9

Faugheen wrote: »

You’re just as guilty of dismissing players out of hand to be fair.

And they’re the two form players on the island in your opinion. I for one think Van Der Flier is playing at a level nobody else is touching at the moment, and McCloskey wasn’t great against Clermont.

I'm dismissing people who have completely failed recently. I mean look we're talking about a squad who failed. how do we change it? its not by dismissing players who are outside of that squad...

VDF has been super yeah. He's a different beast when backed to be a link man and carrier.

All bets have to be off imo, and if McCloskey or Cooney came in and added nothing then yeah look that argument dies. But so far they haven't been given a chance. There's other lads as well. Conway, Ruddock all fall into this subset, but don't have people questioning the veracity of their claims. Maybe because the all seeing Joe trusted them to an extent.

Its a new era. Its a reset i think

Yeah_Right

McCloskey is a strange one. He has all the physical attributes to be a top class 12 and there are times he puts in fantastic performances. He sometimes looks like he could the Irish SBW. Then there are games where he goes missing or is muck. It's that inconsistency that makes me hesitant about him playing for Ireland.

On Friday he seemed more interested in niggle than in playing rugby.

Paul Smeenus

McCloskey was excellent last season. Really good.

Serious question - what player doesn't go missing occasionally? And don't say Ryan - I watched the RWC New Zealand game.

Paul Smeenus

Without getting into 70 pages of Ryan nonsense, because it's deathly dull, every player is inconsistent to a degree. It was only the end of last season people were wondering what had happened to Ringrose. Sexton was pretty inconsistent during the RWC, as was Henshaw. If someone's really flaky, fine, but otherwise, it's weird to say that and then say "class is permament etc etc" when other players aren't performing.

Yeah_Right

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

McCloskey was excellent last season. Really good.

Serious question - what player doesn't go missing occasionally? And don't say Ryan - I watched the RWC New Zealand game.

Occasionally would be one thing because you're right, every player goes missing or has a bad game at some point. For me, McCloskey does it too often to be a top player. If it happened occasionally it wouldn't be such a problem. At the moment I think its 1/3, 1/3, 1/3 between good, average and bad performances from him.

Paul Smeenus

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Occasionally would be one thing because you're right, every player goes missing or has a bad game at some point. For me, McCloskey does it too often to be a top player. If it happened occasionally it wouldn't be such a problem. At the moment I think its 1/3, 1/3, 1/3 between good, average and bad performances from him.

I think that's a distance off. I'm not saying he should be in the Ireland team ahead of anyone, I don't think that. But he was the absolute backbone of the Ulster team last season. One of our best and actually most consistent performers.

He was poor at the weekend, but he's had a shoulder injury, and wouldn't be playing if Hume wasn't out.

sydthebeat

Great interview with Joe Schmidt on off the ball podcast.

All those knee jerk reactor posters should give it a good listen.

thomond2006

Niallof9 wrote: »

Ragebait? Yeah their stats are just plucked from thin air

Some of their original content is good (like the feature on Zebre last season) but the Twitter account reads like a clickbait site.

Squidgy Black

thomond2006 wrote: »

Some of their original content is good (like the feature on Zebre last season) but the Twitter account reads like a clickbait site.

The video side and the Twitter/'news' side are almost like completely different companies. They've produced some great documentaries like the mentioned Zebre one and the Nadolo one, the Legends series as well as the Leicester academy series.

However the articles are pure shít driven for clicks.

Shefwedfan

sydthebeat wrote: »

Great interview with Joe Schmidt on off the ball podcast.

All those knee jerk reactor posters should give it a good listen.

If they do they will totally ignore it and continue on:P

thebaz

sydthebeat wrote: »

Great interview with Joe Schmidt on off the ball podcast.

All those knee jerk reactor posters should give it a good listen.

good interview - I like Joe , but still don't really understand what went wrong in one year - the WC is the ultimate - winning 6 Nations is great, but a successful WC is what determines the best

Shefwedfan

thebaz wrote: »

good interview - I like Joe , but still don't really understand what went wrong in one year - the WC is the ultimate - winning 6 Nations is great, but a successful WC is what determines the best

I don't think anyone can pin point what went wrong.....

salmocab

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I don't think anyone can pin point what went wrong.....

I would think there were several things that went wrong, possibly each on their own wouldn’t have made much difference but a few things wrong for a year or so at that level might cause things to dip significantly.

sydthebeat

Joe gives a very good outline as to what he thinks went wrong, and the logic leading up to the individual decisions

shootermacg

Sexton's close to being washed up. In 4 years he will be entirely washed up. It'd be brave of Farrell to give him the boot, but it would be the right decision.

It's time he took his payday in France and retired.

The Lost Sheep

shootermacg wrote: »

Sexton's close to being washed up. In 4 years he will be entirely washed up. It'd be brave of Farrell to give him the boot, but it would be the right decision.

It's time he took his payday in France and retired.

This is rubbish. What exactly is washed up anyway? And go to France? Eh no....

shootermacg

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

This is rubbish. What exactly is washed up anyway? And go to France? Eh no....

Oh the rubbish game? Well OK then. This post is rubbish. What exactly is rubbish anyway? And go to France? People do that. Eh yeah....

The Lost Sheep

shootermacg wrote: »

Oh the rubbish game? Well OK then. This post is rubbish. What is rubbish anyway? And go to France? People do that. Eh yeah....

Sexton go to France. That's rubbish. You on the wind up with that. As seriously??

And he wont be playing in 4 years anyway.

Shefwedfan

shootermacg wrote: »

Sexton's close to being washed up. In 4 years he will be entirely washed up. It'd be brave of Farrell to give him the boot, but it would be the right decision.

It's time he took his payday in France and retired.

So who is the replacement?

also might be good to explain how he is washed up?

4 years? Have we not done this to death, 4 years is a long time in rugby so why do we give a crap about a tournament in 4 years?

shootermacg

Shefwedfan wrote: »

So who is the replacement?

also might be good to explain how he is washed up?

4 years? Have we not done this to death, 4 years is a long time in rugby so why do we give a crap about a tournament in 4 years?

He should take Kearney and Cronin with him.

sydthebeat

Sexton is still the best 10 in the country right now.

"Washed up" is laughable