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Why aren't you a vegan!?

[Deleted User]

Cards on the table, I'm not a vegan.

That said, it's very hard to argue against the common vegan. After all, almost nobody argues that there is some positive benefit toward the infliction of suffering on animals.

Nobody would argue in favour of collecting dogs in the back of a truck, and sending them off for slaughter in some local abatoir. But that's precisely what happens with the other sentient animals.

The process is often brutal, but even if it were pain-free, the argument goes that animals shouldn't be killed in the same way we wouldn't recommend it for horses or dogs.

I can't really think of a valid argument against veganism. You'd think, then, that I would convert to veganism, but I haven't - and won't. It's a purely selfish endeavour, then, because I'm being hypocritical about how I would react if I saw dogs treated in the same way as farmed animals.

True, there are evolutionary reasons for eating meat. I think the argument now is that there are sufficient plant alternatives.

So, why aren't you a vegan?

Perhaps you have a valid position I, or others here, haven't thought of.

But thus far, I can't frame a case against it.

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Unearthly

Rodin wrote: »

I don't see any snifferpigs or guidepigs on the go

There is more to calculating an animals intelligence than these 2 things. Dogs sniff better than us so are we level in intelligence?

average_runner

IrishKev wrote: »

You're right, avocados take a lot of airmiles to get here. Buying in season, local, whole plant based foods is the best way to go.

You could be right about the lettuce leaf consumption, but there's no denying that beef is the big consumer of the world's resources in that graphic.

We are so used so what the 'natural order of the food chain' is that anything else seems foreign to us.

What other species out there cooks and eats the eggs of another animal? Or drinks the milk of another animal? If I saw a horse sucking a cow's tit it would blow my mind.

As I said, animals are already taking supplements, which like you pointed out, are not made 'naturally'. So the source of which you get your B12 is pretty much irrelevant as they're both coming from the same place essentially.

Well you won't see any other species cooking because they aren't that advance, but you will see plenty of species eating other eggs

As far I know, i dont suck milk off a cow, but i do drink milk same as cat/dog does.

IrishKev

average_runner wrote: »

I don't mind the vegan diet, do it some days myself, but alot of the posts in the thread are hinting that vegan is good and meat diet isn't.

The World Health Organisation have categorised processed meats as a Type 1 carcinogenic, along with tobacco and plutonium.

https://www.cancer.org/cancer/cancer-causes/general-info/known-and-probable-human-carcinogens.html

Forks Over Knives is a very informative documentary, created by the same guys who wrote The China Study book. Have a read/watch, they're eye opening.

Deebles McBeebles

average_runner wrote: »

As far I know, i dont suck milk off a cow, but i do drink milk same as cat/dog does.

The only milk cats and dogs should drink is from their mother. Cow's milk is not good for them.

Bass Reeves

IrishKev wrote: »

Not true. One beef burger takes 2500 litres of water to make.

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2019/02/this-is-how-much-water-is-in-your-burger/

Also, grass fed cows actually produce 20% more methane than grain fed. This is offset by the more positive impact grazing has, however it's much of a muchness.

I like to see the science behind the 2500L/quarter pounder. A bovine producing 300kgs of beef would make 2640 quarter pounder s so is accountable for over 6 million litres when you discount for the bread and salad in the burger.

Where is the 6 million litres used up. In Ireland as we use grass based system for most of an animal life.most water will be recycled back into the ground. While maybe in hot arid countries there is an issue with water in beef production it is not an issue in Ireland.

It is probably as climate friendly to eat beef as white meat here and as climate friendy as importing exotic fruit and veg or importing artificial meat replacement foods

Rodin

Unearthly wrote: »

There is more to calculating an animals intelligence than these 2 things. Dogs sniff better than us so are we level in intelligence?

Some dogs are smarter than some people.

Rodin

Bass Reeves wrote: »

I like to see the science behind the 2500L/quarter pounder. A bovine producing 300kgs of beef would make 2640 quarter pounder s so is accountable for over 6 million litres when you discount for the bread and salad in the burger.

Where is the 6 million litres used up. In Ireland as we use grass based system for most of an animal life.most water will be recycled back into the ground. While maybe in hot arid countries there is an issue with water in beef production it is not an issue in Ireland.

It is probably as climate friendly to eat beef as white meat here and as climate friendy as importing exotic fruit and veg or importing artificial meat replacement foods

The figures are nonsense.

IrishKev

average_runner wrote: »

Well you won't see any other species cooking because they aren't that advance, but you will see plenty of species eating other eggs

As far I know, i dont suck milk off a cow, but i do drink milk same as cat/dog does.

Cats and dogs take what it given to them, that's not much of an argument really.

Also, cows only produce milk when they give birth to a calf. It's cow breast milk, made for a calf to drink in order to grow. The part where humans come along and drink it is pretty crazy when you actually think about it.

Rodin

I'm not a vegan because meat tastes GooooooD.

average_runner

IrishKev wrote: »

The World Health Organisation have categorised processed meats as a Type 1 carcinogenic, along with tobacco and plutonium.

https://www.cancer.org/cancer/cancer-causes/general-info/known-and-probable-human-carcinogens.html

Forks Over Knives is a very informative documentary, created by the same guys who wrote The China Study book. Have a read/watch, they're eye opening.

Anything process has a great chance of causing cancer, there is plenty of unhealthy process vegan food also, ie frozen fake chicken!!!(massive amount of salt in it). Coconut yogurt is not great for you,

average_runner

Deebles McBeebles wrote: »

The only milk cats and dogs should drink is from their mother. Cow's milk is not good for them.

Actually for a kitten its no harm at all, science has proven that, Kittens can break down the lactose.

Sir Guy who smiles

IrishKev wrote: »

Cats and dogs take what it given to them, that's not much of an argument really.

They can't milk cows, they lack opposable thumbs.

Bass Reeves

IrishKev wrote: »

You're right, avocados take a lot of airmiles to get here. Buying in season, local, whole plant based foods is the best way to go.

You could be right about the lettuce leaf consumption, but there's no denying that beef is the big consumer of the world's resources in that graphic.

We are so used so what the 'natural order of the food chain' is that anything else seems foreign to us.

What other species out there cooks and eats the eggs of another animal? Or drinks the milk of another animal? If I saw a horse sucking a cow's tit it would blow my mind.

As I said, animals are already taking supplements, which like you pointed out, are not made 'naturally'. So the source of which you get your B12 is pretty much irrelevant as they're both coming from the same place essentially.

I heard a doctor that specializes in allergies on the radio recently. He made a point that Human being developed so fast from when they started to farm because of dairy produce. People who has no intolerance to lactose out bred those that had.

We developed to a higher platform than other animals. You could ask the same question regarding animals I know of no other animal that cooks there vegetables or other plant based products. There are three main animal types, herbivore, omnivore and carnivores. We are omivores like all other primates.

IrishKev

Bass Reeves wrote: »

I like to see the science behind the 2500L/quarter pounder. A bovine producing 300kgs of beef would make 2640 quarter pounder s so is accountable for over 6 million litres when you discount for the bread and salad in the burger.

Where is the 6 million litres used up. In Ireland as we use grass based system for most of an animal life.most water will be recycled back into the ground. While maybe in hot arid countries there is an issue with water in beef production it is not an issue in Ireland.

It is probably as climate friendly to eat beef as white meat here and as climate friendy as importing exotic fruit and veg or importing artificial meat replacement foods

It's not just the water they drink, but also the water used up in the massive amounts of food they eat.

It's not enough to just argue that because we're in Ireland, we should be OK doing X, Y or Z. Ireland creates the 3rd highest amount of carbon emissions in Europe per capita, and we export a hell of a lot of beef. We're contributing to the global emissions crisis as much as anyone else, and more than most.

Sir Guy who smiles

IrishKev wrote: »

Y....Or drinks the milk of another animal? If I saw a horse sucking a cow's tit it would blow my mind.
.

https://www.independent.ie/business/farming/rural-life/cow-fostering-foals-proves-shes-not-a-one-trick-pony-38178743.html

Also, a neighbour of mine was able to foster calves on a Nanny goat.

Unearthly

average_runner wrote: »

Anything process has a great chance of causing cancer, there is plenty of unhealthy process vegan food also, ie frozen fake chicken!!!(massive amount of salt in it). Coconut yogurt is not great for you,

It's an interesting topic as vegan processed junk food is quite new so science hasn't really done research on this yet. The science studies that show vegan diets as healthy is probably because they eat whole foods. After all, back in the 80's you couldn't pop into Burger King and get a Rebel Whopper.

In 10 years or so you might see cancer, heart disease etc is just as bad as you will have people who are junk food vegans.

Deebles McBeebles

average_runner wrote: »

Actually for a kitten its no harm at all, science has proven that, Kittens can break down the lactose.

I don't think science has proven that at all. Young kittens can handle the lactose but cows milk is not recommended for them. A milk replacement with essential nutrients etc can be used if mothers milk is not available but if you're giving them cows milk, you might as well just give them water. Adult cats are usually lactose intolerant.

But this isnt really the point of the thread.

Tropheus

We evolved over millions of years eating meat. We are natural omnivores. You can't change how we evolved and I believe going vegan/vegetarian causes a nutrient deficiency.

[Deleted User]

Tropheus wrote: »

We evolved over millions of years eating meat. We are natural omnivores. You can't change how we evolved and I believe going vegan/vegetarian causes a nutrient deficiency.

If a vegan approached you and said, "Does that justify slashing an animal in the throat?, or, "Does that justify gassing animals to death?" - what would your response be, do you think?

Of course, calling the police is not an option, though perhaps tempting if an evangelical pseudomilitant vegan were to approach you.

IrishKev

Sir Guy who smiles wrote: »

https://www.independent.ie/business/farming/rural-life/cow-fostering-foals-proves-shes-not-a-one-trick-pony-38178743.html

Also, a neighbour of mine was able to foster calves on a Nanny goat.

Yep, that's pretty crazy. So much so that it's newsworthy. Yet most people do this on a daily basis and it's seen as completely normal.

IrishKev

Rodin wrote: »

Dogs are smarter than cows.

What does that prove? We're smarter than dogs, so should we eat dogs?

jaja321 wrote: »

I think if I still lived in the US I might. Production practices there are particularly hideous. Maybe I'm in denial about practices in Ireland though?

I don't eat a huge amount of meat, but think I would still find it hard to give it up entirely. I'd live without milk, but don't know if I could ever give up cheese.

I was the exact same mate. It's a gradual process but it got to the point where I didn't want to be a part of the dairy industry anymore for several reasons.

This is from a UK farm, just across the pond

average_runner wrote: »

Anything process has a great chance of causing cancer, there is plenty of unhealthy process vegan food also, ie frozen fake chicken!!!(massive amount of salt in it). Coconut yogurt is not great for you,

Definitely. Whole food, plant based diet is the best way to go.

Tropheus wrote: »

We evolved over millions of years eating meat. We are natural omnivores. You can't change how we evolved and I believe going vegan/vegetarian causes a nutrient deficiency.

Just because you believe something it doesn't mean it's true. Look up vegan bodybuilders, athletes or just regular vegan diets. You will get everything you need from them and reduce cholesterol, blood pressure, and anything else that's too high in the process

[Deleted User]

Rodin wrote: »

I don't see any snifferpigs or guidepigs on the go

Truffle sniffing by both pigs and dogs

[Deleted User]

For example, here's a video of how they gas pigs:

gozunda

jimgoose wrote: »

I would imagine you'd get a few growls if you went along to a flower-arranging forum and set about explaining to the good burghers therein/on that flower-arranging was a waste of time, misguided, bad for them and contrary to the natural order, yes! And in case you were wondering, I'm an insatiable and incorrigible carnivore.

But I dont think that's the issue. I see a constant flow of misinformation on agriculture and farming and meat / dairy that are regularly dished out as gospel. The stuff regularly gets pushed in AH and CA / IMHO so you dont even have to go to any one forum to see this stuff at play. Then of course where anyone points out what has been said is not factually correct - you get virtually screamed at for supposedly 'attacking' veganism etc. For example I pointed out that a comment which claimed all cattle were AI'd was incorrect and was subsequently jumped on as making it up etc. I can understand people not knowing some of this stuff - but the crap that is believed is only woeful tbh.

jimgoose

gozunda wrote: »

...For example I pointed out that a comment which claimed all cattle were AI'd was incorrect and was subsequently jumped on as making it up etc. I can understand people not knowing some of this stuff - but the crap that is believed is only woeful tbh.

What sodding difference does it make if cattle are AI'd?? :pac:

[Deleted User]

I don't understand why they can't develop a means to render animals unconscious en masse, then kill them.

I mean, if you deprive humans from oxygen in an aircraft, for example, they delve into unconsciousness without pain.

Surely, a similar and cheap means could be used for farming - then finding a quick and effective means for instant death.

It surely must be possible - and would eliminate any excessive levels of suffering experienced by the animals.

emaherx

IrishKev wrote: »

The World Health Organisation have categorised processed meats as a Type 1 carcinogenic, along with tobacco and plutonium.

https://www.cancer.org/cancer/cancer-causes/general-info/known-and-probable-human-carcinogens.html

Forks Over Knives is a very informative documentary, created by the same guys who wrote The China Study book. Have a read/watch, they're eye opening.

This is a perfect example of misinformation.

Please define a type 1 carcinogens, it seems you either misunderstand the term or else just want to mislead people.

https://www.who.int/features/qa/cancer-red-meat/en/

osarusan

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

That is not my point my point is the ideologically aggressive nature they have plus how vocal they are despite such a small percentage of the population.

I'm in my 40s. By the law of averages I must have met a certain number of vegans in my life, a dozen or two, but I genuinely don't think I've ever had somebody tell me they were a vegan. And I don't just mean telling me for no reason, I mean nobody ever telling me.

We've all heard the joke about how you always know somebody is a vegan because they'll tell you hahaha, but it's never happened to me.

Sure, you see it more online but online is just a place for the more vocal to congregate and whine at length, and that goes for the anti-vegans as well, and for every other kind of whiner too.

corks finest

Money + time + knowledge

gozunda

Unearthly wrote: »

It's not preachy to point out a poor argument. Look it up on Google if you have time.Anyway, Gozunda who in the past has been accused at being the biggest anti vegan poster on boards (unfair imo as I think he argues his points constructively) agreed with me.

Well I believe the general rule is attack the post and not the poster. But as I pointed out earlier not much changes there eh?

I'm sorry unearthly we've had some intersting discussions - but please point out where it is alleged "the biggest anti vegan poster". I see what you did there btw ...

As detailed many many times - I really dont care what anyone eats and I do not make comments about vegans personal choices btw. That's not my style. What no one likes is the endless crap like that by a small number of 'preachy' posters who have a tendency to personally attack anyone who points out that the 'facts' derived from various bs plant advocacy website are either incorrect or just complete rubbish. And shock horror yes it's mainly agriculture related posts to which I have replied. Plus this is a public forum last time I looked.

If you anyone else thinks for a millisecond that is being anti or attacking' anyone by engaging in discussion - then possibly the best thing to do is report the post and dont hide behind faux outrage and bile.