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Why aren't you a vegan!?

[Deleted User]

Cards on the table, I'm not a vegan.

That said, it's very hard to argue against the common vegan. After all, almost nobody argues that there is some positive benefit toward the infliction of suffering on animals.

Nobody would argue in favour of collecting dogs in the back of a truck, and sending them off for slaughter in some local abatoir. But that's precisely what happens with the other sentient animals.

The process is often brutal, but even if it were pain-free, the argument goes that animals shouldn't be killed in the same way we wouldn't recommend it for horses or dogs.

I can't really think of a valid argument against veganism. You'd think, then, that I would convert to veganism, but I haven't - and won't. It's a purely selfish endeavour, then, because I'm being hypocritical about how I would react if I saw dogs treated in the same way as farmed animals.

True, there are evolutionary reasons for eating meat. I think the argument now is that there are sufficient plant alternatives.

So, why aren't you a vegan?

Perhaps you have a valid position I, or others here, haven't thought of.

But thus far, I can't frame a case against it.

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Sloppy_Joe

Deleted User wrote: »

Vegans talk about the need "not exploit animals".

Surely one of the greatest ways to exploit animals is by taking their habitats/land/territory and transforming it into something that benefits us - whether its city expansion, creating research zones, or whatever it may be; humans are constantly encroaching on the territory of other animals for our own benefit.

That happens, of course, on a global scale - and vegans are inextricably part of that process - yet appear to be perfectly willing to accept that form of exploitation.

Hypocritical, perhaps?

And also the vegans with pets.

gormdubhgorm

Sloppy_Joe wrote: »

Also why are vegans so vocal about being vegan. It's like an identity, having it on your twitter bio.

It is a religious fervor type thing
I assume a lot of them will grow out of it as well, as they become less ideological and more practical.

Tired Gardener

Used to be a Vegan before I moved to Rural Ireland. Due to how hard it is to acquire certain food stuffs, I have had to switch back to a Vegetarian diet. Eating out in Rural Ireland is also near enough impossible for a Vegan diet, so switching back has given me a bit more flexibility.

I still try to limit my diary and egg in take, and do manage a good number of Vegan days. However I know that a Vegan diet has a lot of health and environmental benefits, and would love to switch back... even if I have developed a taste for Halloumi.

RoboRat

I would consider going vegeterian but never vegan. I like too many things that would be against vegan values plus I find most vegans to be utterly tedious.

gormdubhgorm

Deleted User wrote: »

Vegans talk about the need "not exploit animals".

Surely one of the greatest ways to exploit animals is by taking their habitats/land/territory and transforming it into something that benefits us - whether its city expansion, creating research zones, or whatever it may be; humans are constantly encroaching on the territory of other animals for our own benefit.

That happens, of course, on a global scale - and vegans are inextricably part of that process - yet appear to be perfectly willing to accept that form of exploitation.

Hypocritical, perhaps?

Sloppy_Joe wrote: »

And also the vegans with pets.

'Pro-Choice Vegans' there is another one that is difficult for me to get my head around.
Seems like a lot of cognitive dissonance is required for them.

whisky_galore

PokeHerKing wrote: »

Asia has created most of the recent killer hybrid diseases by having such filthy markets with all kinds of live and dead meat side by side. Certainly nothing to aspire to.

There's never been a meat processing scandal in the West detrimental to public health of course ... oh wait...

gormdubhgorm

Tired Gardener wrote: »

Used to be a Vegan before I moved to Rural Ireland. Due to how hard it is to acquire certain food stuffs, I have had to switch back to a Vegetarian diet. Eating out in Rural Ireland is also near enough impossible for a Vegan diet, so switching back has given me a bit more flexibility.

I still try to limit my diary and egg in take, and do manage a good number of Vegan days. However I know that a Vegan diet has a lot of health and environmental benefits, and would love to switch back... even if I have developed a taste for Halloumi.

At least I learnt what Halloumi is after quick internet search. More of a cheddar man meself....

Thelonious Monk

Seriously where are all these f*cking vocal vegans you all meet? I doubt the types on here giving out about vegans hang out at Buddhist talks or mindfulness meet ups?

IrishKev

Deleted User wrote: »

Vegans talk about the need "not exploit animals".

Surely one of the greatest ways to exploit animals is by taking their habitats/land/territory and transforming it into something that benefits us - whether its city expansion, creating research zones, or whatever it may be; humans are constantly encroaching on the territory of other animals for our own benefit.

That happens, of course, on a global scale - and vegans are inextricably part of that process - yet appear to be perfectly willing to accept that form of exploitation.

Hypocritical, perhaps?

We're all hypocrites, vegan or not. Like you say, we're all inextricably part of our society - turning back the clock and changing that is not possible. What is possible is controlling what you eat and buy, and making conscious choices to do as little harm as possible in the process.

The bottom line is the amount of meat consumed today is ruining the planet, end of. Look at the Amazon rainforest fires - this is land being cleared for either livestock, or for food for livestock. It's a global problem, not a national one. The argument that buying meat in Ireland doesn't in any way contribute to this is narrow-minded and wrong.

gormdubhgorm

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Seriously where are all these f*cking vocal vegans you all meet? I doubt the types on here giving out about vegans hang out at Buddhist talks or mindfulness meet ups?

Any vegan I ever met is like that, or at the very least disdainful of non vegans.
Plus the vegans internet presence is completely disproportionate to thier numbers globally. Because they are extremely vocal or at the very least make themselves visible in a passive aggressive manner.

Thelonious Monk

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Any vegan I ever met is like that, or at the very least disdainful of non vegans.
Plus the vegans internet presence is completely disproportionate to thier numbers globally. Because they are extremely vocal or at the very least make themselves visible in a passive aggressive manner.

Funny how I've never met a vegan as far as I know, certainly not a vocal one, and I have a diverse bunch of friends and acquaintances.
I also don't encounter them on the internet either!

Ragnar Lothbrok

Vegetarian all my life (parents were veggies) but I'm too lazy to become a vegan. It seems like too much hard work.

I admire anyone that can commit to a vegan lifestyle, although I've never knowingly met one. Where are theses hordes of "vocal vegans" I wonder? Perhaps they only live in certain people's minds.

gormdubhgorm

IrishKev wrote: »

We're all hypocrites, vegan or not. Like you say, we're all inextricably part of our society - turning back the clock and changing that is not possible. What is possible is controlling what you eat and buy, and making conscious choices to do as little harm as possible in the process.

The bottom line is the amount of meat consumed today is ruining the planet, end of. Look at the Amazon rainforest fires - this is land being cleared for either livestock, or for food for livestock. It's a global problem, not a national one. The argument that buying meat in Ireland doesn't in any way contribute to this is narrow-minded and wrong.

I got to be honest I am not too bothered about the Amazon rainfoests or all that jazz. I have being hearing about it for thirty years plus at this stage.

Plus I seriously doubt Ireland is the problem when taken in global sense.
More like China, Brazil, USA, Russia, India etc. Or Africa who have to develop thier continent after centuries of colonialism,
All this scaremongering stuff is old news and it is getting so over hyped it is getting annoying.

I would say consumer obsession with the smart phones and technology etx causes far more damage to the environment than meat eating does. The mining of the metals etc (likely Africa) the manufacture likely China/India.

gormdubhgorm

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Funny how I've never met a vegan as far as I know, certainly not a vocal one, and I have a diverse bunch of friends and acquaintances.
I also don't encounter them on the internet either!

All you have to do is go to the vegan and vegetarianism forum on this very website.
To see the minority lecture the majority.
Plus have you seen the vegan billboards around the place?

https://www.independent.ie/business/farming/rural-life/go-vegan-billboard-draws-ire-and-ink-from-traditional-food-producer-36777879.html

Thelonious Monk

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

All you have to do is go to the vegan and vegetarianism forum on this very website.
To see the minority lecture the majority.

Why on earth would you or i be looking in there?

jimgoose

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

All you have to do is go to the vegan and vegetarianism forum on this very website.
To see the minority lecture the majority.

Would you not expect to see a load of vegan types rabbiting on about veganism and the various advantages thereof in a, yeah no, I'm going to have to say vegan forum? In an at least tangentially similar way to how you wouldn't expect that in a forum dedicated to, say, flower-arranging, video games or small-block Chevrolet engines?? :pac:

gormdubhgorm

jimgoose wrote: »

Would you not expect to see a load of vegan types rabbiting on about veganism and the various advantages thereof in a, yeah no, I'm going to have to say vegan forum? In an at least tangentially similar way to how you wouldn't expect that in a forum dedicated to, say, flower-arranging, video games or small-block Chevrolet engines?? :pac:

Yeah but my point is that is are extremely vocal within thier sub group and attack those who do not share thier ideology.
Is the flower arranging section like that?

gormdubhgorm

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Funny how I've never met a vegan as far as I know, certainly not a vocal one, and I have a diverse bunch of friends and acquaintances.
I also don't encounter them on the internet either!

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

All you have to do is go to the vegan and vegetarianism forum on this very website.
To see the minority lecture the majority.
Plus have you seen the vegan billboards around the place?

https://www.independent.ie/business/farming/rural-life/go-vegan-billboard-draws-ire-and-ink-from-traditional-food-producer-36777879.html

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Why on earth would you or i be looking in there?

You just asked me a question and I gave you an answer.
But for some reason you decided to ask another question!

jimgoose

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Yeah but my point is that is are extremely vocal within thier sub group and attack those who do not share thier ideology.
Is the flower arranging section like that?

I would imagine you'd get a few growls if you went along to a flower-arranging forum and set about explaining to the good burghers therein/on that flower-arranging was a waste of time, misguided, bad for them and contrary to the natural order, yes! And in case you were wondering, I'm an insatiable and incorrigible carnivore.

Thelonious Monk

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

You just asked me a question and I gave you an answer.
But for some reason you decided to ask another question!

So the only place you encounter vegans with views are on their forums. Got it champ.

gormdubhgorm

jimgoose wrote: »

I would imagine you'd get a few growls if you went along to a flower-arranging forum and set about explaining to the good burghers therein/on that flower-arranging was a waste of time, misguided, bad for them and contrary to the natural order, yes! And in case you were wondering, I'm an insatiable and incorrigible carnivore.

You are deliberately missing the point if you look at the forum they are attacking non vegans without any provocation. Or at least going in passive aggressive mode. 2 % of the population remember...

Unearthly

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

So the only place you encounter vegans with views are on their forums. Got it champ.

Watch out, We got ourselves a new visionary with such wisdom

gormdubhgorm

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

So the only place you encounter vegans with views are on their forums. Got it champ.

Not true, I have already said I have relation(s) who are vegan.
Plus one has severe health issues as a result but is still staunch.
Maybe if you read my posts instead?
Rather than making assumptions when you have no viable retort 'champ' ?

And it is not the first time this poster below has made a passive aggressive post either

Unearthly wrote: »

Watch out, We got ourselves a new visionary with such wisdom

Proving my point really and truly.

wakka12

Tired Gardener wrote: »

Used to be a Vegan before I moved to Rural Ireland. Due to how hard it is to acquire certain food stuffs, I have had to switch back to a Vegetarian diet. Eating out in Rural Ireland is also near enough impossible for a Vegan diet, so switching back has given me a bit more flexibility.

I still try to limit my diary and egg in take, and do manage a good number of Vegan days. However I know that a Vegan diet has a lot of health and environmental benefits, and would love to switch back... even if I have developed a taste for Halloumi.

What are the health benefits?
I've heard conflicting reports on whether vegans and vegetarians live longer than meat eaters.

Study of 250,000 Australians
https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/vegetarians-study-lower-risk-death
No significant differences in all-cause mortality
https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/vegan-meat-life-expectancy-eggs-dairy-research-a7168036.html
This study found a significant difference.130,000 people over 30 years.They found every three per cent increase in calories from plant protein was found to reduce risk of death by 10 per cent.By contrast, raising the share of animal protein in one's diet by 10 per cent led to a two per cent higher risk of death from all causes.

Overall I think the health benefits of vegan and vegetarians diets are overstated. I think most of the purported benefits found in studies are a combination of the fact that those people generally live generally healthier lifestyles than the regular, meat eating population, and even more importantly how much more plants they eat than most people do as the lack of calories from meat is replaced by extra plants.

Das Reich

Have a relative that is now 57 years old, became vegan about 30 years ago and saw the difference. Never married, no children, no sexual partner, asexual that doesn't even go with escorts. Also unemployed from long time, living from income that his father left, alone with a dog and few cats that he call his sons. Very bad memory, loses loads of email accounts, passwords, can't remember adresses. Does not have social life, stranger temperament. Kind of effeminate that makes some people thinks he is gay. Is all the time sick. Is probably even sterile. Back in the 80's he was a normal person, even had a very attractive girlfriend. Definately think the lack of protein changed his life to the worse.

IrishKev

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I seriously doubt Ireland is the problem when taken in global sense.
More like China, Brazil, USA, Russia, India etc. Or Africa who have to develop thier continent after centuries of colonialism,

I'm fed up of the argument that 'we're not the problem' just because we're a small country. If every country takes that approach, come 2050 the world will be f*cked. People are very quick to blame China or India for their fossil fuel burning - yet will happily buy a t-shirt in Penney's or order something online from AliExpress and not give it a second thought. Don't get me wrong, I've done both myself - but finger pointing is not the answer.

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

All you have to do is go to the vegan and vegetarianism forum on this very website.
To see the minority lecture the majority.

People talking about veganism on a vegan sub-forum? I've never heard the likes.

jimgoose

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

You are deliberately missing the point if you look at the forum they are attacking non vegans without any provocation. Or at least going in passive aggressive mode. 2 % of the population remember...

I had a quick look there, they just seem to be chatting away about vegan/veggie matters. Could you point me to a specific case of where they are rounding on an innocent carnie who isn't deliberately gowling around in there in order to wind them up?

wakka12

Das Reich wrote: »

Have a relative that is now 57 years old, became vegan about 30 years ago and saw the difference. Never married, no children, no sexual partner, asexual that doesn't even go with escorts. Also unemployed from long time, living from income that his father left, alone with a dog and few cats that he call his sons. Very bad memory, loses loads of email accounts, passwords, can't remember adresses. Does not have social life, stranger temperament. Kind of effeminate that makes some people thinks he is gay. Is all the time sick. Is probably even sterile. Back in the 80's he was a normal person, even had a very attractive girlfriend. Definately think the lack of protein changed his life to the worse.

What a silly anecdote, as if any of those things have anything to do with his diet. You can also have a high protein diet and be vegan. If you ate lots of beans and grains sure youd probably have a higher protein diet than the majority of people.

Mocho Joe Joe

My husband has gone vegetarian on a few different attempts, i just join in as I can't be arsed making 2 meals. But we noticed we were eating a far greater amount of processed foods (mainly because i'm crap in the kitchen and didn't know what to replace our meat with) bought veggie sausages etc and the salt content was madness so we just went back to meat.

Unearthly

Mocho Joe Joe wrote: »

My husband has gone vegetarian on a few different attempts, i just join in as I can't be arsed making 2 meals. But we noticed we were eating a far greater amount of processed foods (mainly because i'm crap in the kitchen and didn't know what to replace our meat with) bought veggie sausages etc and the salt content was madness so we just went back to meat.

You would definitely need to be able to cook to avoid all the processed crap. Once you tackle that issue, there is huge variety