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Why aren't you a vegan!?

[Deleted User]

Cards on the table, I'm not a vegan.

That said, it's very hard to argue against the common vegan. After all, almost nobody argues that there is some positive benefit toward the infliction of suffering on animals.

Nobody would argue in favour of collecting dogs in the back of a truck, and sending them off for slaughter in some local abatoir. But that's precisely what happens with the other sentient animals.

The process is often brutal, but even if it were pain-free, the argument goes that animals shouldn't be killed in the same way we wouldn't recommend it for horses or dogs.

I can't really think of a valid argument against veganism. You'd think, then, that I would convert to veganism, but I haven't - and won't. It's a purely selfish endeavour, then, because I'm being hypocritical about how I would react if I saw dogs treated in the same way as farmed animals.

True, there are evolutionary reasons for eating meat. I think the argument now is that there are sufficient plant alternatives.

So, why aren't you a vegan?

Perhaps you have a valid position I, or others here, haven't thought of.

But thus far, I can't frame a case against it.

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Cantona's Collars

silverharp wrote: »

It turns out all those cave paintings with men with spears was them keeping the animals off their vegetable gardens

Ah sure the mammoth was a divil for eating cabbage.

Calhoun

Deleted User wrote: »

Not pushing it at all!

My OP is an authentic one; a legitimate case of where I understand the vegan arguments, but can't bring myself - nor will I ever - to become a fully, paid-up subscriber to all-things vegan.

Ultimately, the best I can come up with is that we should sideline the emotional case for purely pragmatic reasons.

As for the post you quoted, that was part of a wider political analogy, and in it, I used vegan and bland food interchangeably to make a point.

Still no answer to this, any takers:

It honest to God looked like your a vegan and being sly, but this post clarified that you are not.

As I said personally I would dip in and out of vegtarian meals but could not go full vegan. I actually don't really like red meat prefer white meat.

The animal welfare piece for me doesn't phase me, I just don't care so all the bull**** like the below doesn't phase me nor does that pictures of babies taken away from their mothers.

As long as good animal husbandry and practices that's the best we can ask for.

https://www.reddit.com/r/insanepeoplefacebook/comments/dz2l1i/same_holocaust_different_species/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share

_Kaiser_

Oh look, another crusade to tell us that something is now wrong in our "enlightened" social media age :rolleyes:

Not having a dig at the OP personally by any stretch but I rate this alongside the notion that I should live like someone in the Third World so others can get the feels about helping to change the climate "crisis".

I quite enjoyed my quarter pounder meal just now thanks and I'm sure I will again.

AlanG

Personally I don't think the benefits of veganism are worth it for me. I'm sure there are arguments on both sides but the number of small animals killed to grow grain is accepted as being very high. If the life of one mouse is worth the same as the life of one cow then it is arguably far more humane to avoid grains and eat beef instead.

https://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/scienceshow/mice-the-biggest-losers-w-vegetarianism/4660498

Tar.Aldarion

dartboardio wrote: »

I know but it's not like I or many others won't turn vegan because of how 'difficult' or easy it is, we (I) just don't want to.

Im happy to eat meat and dairy. Yes I'd often have plenty of veg based meals with no meat, but that's out of preference, its not a case of oh no it'll be too hard to change, there's no need for a happy meat or dairy eater to change.

There's a variety of people, some want to change, some don't. That's fine. You don't and others do which is normal. I know plenty of people that want to but it is the lesser convenience that makes them not, or not knowing what to cook. (A lot of people don't even cook at all and live off ready meals).

I was at a free vegan cooking class in London last week and there were 51 people interested in veganism there, that were there learning what they could make, how to cook, what the nutrition they needed to know was. Poor people, rich people. There was a doctor and dietitian there for 3 hours answering questions. As they just had no clue what to do since everything convenient was not vegan and when they cook or change their eating habits they don't have the information available to them about what to eat/what to cook. For these people it absolutely matters how easy or hard it is, people only have so much time, willpower, money and so on. For others like yourself, of course peoples opinions and what they want to do will vary.

Thelonious Monk

rhubarbcustard wrote: »

Water isnt an issue in my opinion when it comes to producing Irish Grass fed Beef, I assume this level of water suggested (660 Gallons per burger) is based on beef coming from US feed lots that are fed crops like soy and corn that use a lot of water to be produced perhaps in areas that dont have a lot of rainfall.

Irish beef is fed on maize and soy from the Americas though, as well as our own grass. We have so many cattle on the island that we can't grow enough food for them.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/farming/we-depend-two-times-more-on-imported-animal-feed-than-our-neighbours-832683.html

Anyway, regarding vegans, I don't understand why they trigger everyone so much. I'm not sure I've ever even met one, yet people go on like they're everywhere all up in your faces trying to change the way you eat. The world is eating more and more meat globally, so you can all relax.

jimgoose

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

...Anyway, regarding vegans, I don't understand why they trigger everyone so much. I'm not sure I've ever even met one, yet people go on like they're everywhere all up in your faces trying to change the way you eat. The world is eating more and more meat globally, so you can all relax.

There's a youngfella here in the office who's vegan, you couldn't meet a nicer chap. Not only does he not go on about it, he doesn't mention it at all, aside from when he's asked if he any preferences during work lunches, evenings out, and so forth. Most of them are like that.

emaherx

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Irish beef is fed on maize and soy from the Americas though, as well as our own grass. We have so many cattle on the island that we can't grow enough food for them.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/farming/we-depend-two-times-more-on-imported-animal-feed-than-our-neighbours-832683.html

Anyway, regarding vegans, I don't understand why they trigger everyone so much. I'm not sure I've ever even met one, yet people go on like they're everywhere all up in your faces trying to change the way you eat. The world is eating more and more meat globally, so you can all relax.

The amount of feed mentioned in that article wouldn't feed the Irish cattle herd for more than a few weeks and notice how it says animal feed not cattle feed, so by the time all that feed is fed to pigs, chickens, sheep, goats, turkeys etc there is very little left for cattle.

Pigs and chickens in particular are much more likely to be farmed exclusively indoors and depend much more on feed imports.

Thelonious Monk

emaherx wrote: »

The amount of feed mentioned in that article wouldn't feed the Irish cattle herd for more than a few weeks and notice how it says animal feed not cattle feed, so by the time all that feed is fed to pigs, chickens, sheep, goats, turkeys etc there is very little left for cattle.

Pigs and chickens in particular are much more likely to be farmed exclusively indoors and depend much more on feed imports.

Well whatever the animal, it says to me that we're producing and eating too much meat in Ireland, if we have to import food to feed the food we eat and export!

monseiur

Deleted User wrote: »

Would you be comfortable if dogs or horses or cats were farmed in accordance with the same methods, then, to add more diversity to our menus?

Over 40 million dogs are eaten (by humans) across Asia every year.....think globally

Alrigghtythen

I am not a vegan because I don't agree with the death, deforestation, and soil erosion in South America that the vegans promote.

Thelonious Monk

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

I am not a vegan because I don't agree with the death, deforestation, and soil erosion in South America that the vegans promote.

How do they promote that? If everyone was a vegan, far less land would be required worldwide to feed the population. Much of the world's agricultural land is used to grow food to feed animals to feed humans.

ted1

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

How do they promote that? If everyone was a vegan, far less land would be required worldwide to feed the population. Much of the world's agricultural land is used to grow food to feed animals to feed humans.

I assumed he was trolling

wakka12

Odelay wrote: »

Farm animals are often treated better than many humans. Given the choice of coming back as a dairy cow or someone in the third world, I’d prefer to come back as the cow.

That's silly. Plenty of people in the third world live perfectly happy lives even though they dont have a lot of wealth. Not all farm animals are treated the same. Would you like to be a baby calf living in a tiny indoor pen designed to restrict your movement so your muscle doesnt toughen and then slaughtered for veal at a young age?

Alrigghtythen

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

How do they promote that? If everyone was a vegan, far less land would be required worldwide to feed the population. Much of the world's agricultural land is used to grow food to feed animals to feed humans.

Quinoa and advacado.

Vegans pushed up the price and people who relied on this as a basic staple can no longer afford it.

Are you aware of the advacado war? Water been stolen to grow advacado, again leaving local people without water to grow things so the vagans can have more advacado.

Alrigghtythen

ted1 wrote: »

I assumed he was trolling

You really should investigate a bit more in to the reality then

Xcellor

I think most people are so far removed from the realities of where their food comes from. It's all very neatly packaged and so cheap.

Even though I was plant based for more than a year - the ethics didn't click in my mind until I watched https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQRAfJyEsko in reality the majority of animals endure an awful existence. Some get killed on their first day of life.

Most people are very uncomfortable when faced with realities and typically say "Oh but it's not like that in <insert_country_here>".:rolleyes:

Thelonious Monk

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

Quinoa and advacado.

Vegans pushed up the price and people who relied on this as a basic staple can no longer afford it.

Are you aware of the advacado war? Water been stolen to grow advacado, again leaving local people without water to grow things so the vagans can have more advacado.

I am aware of this, but wasn't aware vegans only ate quinoa and avocadoes. I usually see avo served in burritos with beef and pork etc in Boojum etc.
Anyway, regardless of those foods, it doesn't come anywhere close to the land and water required and ecological destruction caused by cattle farming.

Xcellor

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

Quinoa and advacado.

Vegans pushed up the price and people who relied on this as a basic staple can no longer afford it.

Are you aware of the advacado war? Water been stolen to grow advacado, again leaving local people without water to grow things so the vagans can have more advacado.

The majority of quinoa is consumed by non-vegans. Same for avocado. But hey lets blame vegans.

wakka12

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

I am not a vegan because I don't agree with the death, deforestation, and soil erosion in South America that the vegans promote.

No they don't . Im guessing youre referring to often cited argument regarding the popularity of avocados , quinoa and palm oil? Plenty of such exports dont come from south american rainforests. Lots of avocados are produced in the US, Spain and China. Palm oil is used to make as many non vegan products as it is vegan ones. Quinoa has a large production in Spain also. A huge amount of other whole grains are popular within the vegan community also. Not that the people coming out with this argument against veganism ever give the slightest toss about south american rainforests anyway.

Anyway if that was truly the reason you arent vegan then surely you could buck the trend and not indulge in that practice which is apparently promoted by most vegans? Vegans arent forcing you to do it if you join their cult,free to think for yourself you know.

wakka12

Personally I tried vegeterianism and I struggled to make meals that were still satiating and filling. I rarely eat beef or pork, mostly just chicken and fish.

emaherx

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Well whatever the animal, it says to me that we're producing and eating too much meat in Ireland, if we have to import food to feed the food we eat and export!

It only says to me that we are a global market and importing and exporting produce is part of that. Do you only eat food produced in Ireland? If not how's that any different?

YFlyer

rhubarbcustard wrote: »

Water isnt an issue in my opinion when it comes to producing Irish Grass fed Beef, I assume this level of water suggested (660 Gallons per burger) is based on beef coming from US feed lots that are fed crops like soy and corn that use a lot of water to be produced perhaps in areas that dont have a lot of rainfall.

Last summer it was an issue.

emaherx

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

I am aware of this, but wasn't aware vegans only ate quinoa and avocadoes. I usually see avo served in burritos with beef and pork etc in Boojum etc.
Anyway, regardless of those foods, it doesn't come anywhere close to the land and water required and ecological destruction caused by cattle farming.

The water use? You mean rain?
Extensively farmed cattle is far less destructive than arable farming. Nature lives quite happily along side my cattle but a plough destroys everything in it's path.

Thelonious Monk

emaherx wrote: »

The water use? You mean rain?
Extensively farmed cattle is far less destructive than arable farming.

ok and how many people only eat extensively farmed meat? Vast majority of people don't even know what it is.

lemd

eskimohunt wrote:

Nobody would argue in favour of collecting dogs in the back of a truck, and sending them off for slaughter in some local abatoir. But that's precisely what happens with the other sentient animals.

I am on holiday in Vietnam at the moment and it took me asking about the disproportionate amount of clearly female dogs about to cop on that this is pretty much what is going on.
I have eaten some weird food over the last few days but looking at the admittedly scruffy looking rover lying on the floor beside me I couldn't stomach it if a plate showed up in front of me.
I don't know why beef, lamb and pork is different as they are all have their own endearing characteristics, except goats. Goats are evil!

emaherx

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

ok and how many people only eat extensively farmed meat? Vast majority of people don't even know what it is.

Vast majority of Irish cattle are extensively farmed.

is_that_so

Almonds too have their own issues, especially on water.
https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2015/04/16/399958203/how-almonds-became-a-scapegoat-for-californias-drought

emaherx

YFlyer wrote: »

Last summer it was an issue.

Droughts affect all food production in all countries whether meat or plant based, thankfully don't happen here very often. I can only remember 2 droughts here, last year and 1995.

I'd wager last year's drought effected potato and cereal crops worse than it did any cattle farm.

whisky_galore

lemd wrote: »

I am on holiday in Vietnam at the moment and it took me asking about the disproportionate amount of clearly female dogs about to cop on that this is pretty much what is going on.
I have eaten some weird food over the last few days but looking at the admittedly scruffy looking rover lying on the floor beside me I couldn't stomach it if a plate showed up in front of me.
I don't know why beef, lamb and pork is different as they are all have their own endearing characteristics, except goats. Goats are evil!

If you live in a Chinatown area in Vietnam, the place is full of barking dogs at night leading up to New Year.
After Chinese New Year, silence.

One thing I will say about them is that they know well where their food comes from, no cognitive dissonance - not purchasing neatly wrapped meat portions in the supermarket, and they don't faff about soul searching Western style as to whether it's ethical or not.