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Child Item

Unpaid Debts

Brendan Bendar

It would appear that the level of unpaid debt is spiraling out of control in Ireland.

DCC, TOLLS, MOTORING FINES, GENERAL COURT FINES,TV LICENCES, MORTGAGES..etc.

Why is this allowed?

Who eventually pays for the shortfall- compliant folk who seem to be shouldering the burden for the non-payers?

Strange there is no outcry from those who seem to be at every protest,picket line, demonstration, march and meeting going?

Have they no interest in this disgraceful situation.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/first-dublin-city-council-social-housing-tenant-to-be-evicted-for-rent-arrears-1.4085923.

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katiek102010

I have worked in debt management in the UK and Ireland and honestly the attachment of income is the only thing that works...
In the UK when you have a court order you can apply for an attachment order, it cost 50 quid and the costs could be added to the debt.

The attachment is a minimum of 12.5% of income and a maximum of 25%.

So for example if a person has 2k debt and on the dole getting 100 weekly you would get 12.50 weekly of the debt. If they were also getting children's allowance which is calculated weekly but paid monthly you would get 12.5% of that also allowing the maximum of 25% per month attachments.

It needs to be brought in here

KildareP

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

It would appear that the level of unpaid debt is spiraling out of control in Ireland.

DCC, TOLLS, MOTORING FINES, GENERAL COURT FINES,TV LICENCES, MORTGAGES..etc.

Why is this allowed?

Who eventually pays for the shortfall- compliant folk who seem to be shouldering the burden for the non-payers?

Strange there is no outcry from those who seem to be at every protest,picket line, demonstration, march and meeting going?

Have they no interest in this disgraceful situation.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/first-dublin-city-council-social-housing-tenant-to-be-evicted-for-rent-arrears-1.4085923.

Strokestown type reaction is mostly why.

Call in the debt using methods the borrower committed themselves to and you get all sorts up in arms about it, that it's disgraceful, that it's horribly unfair.

cruizer101

More than half the council’s 24,400 tenants are behind on their rent, with 20 per cent more than six months in arrears.

That is absolutely nuts

spurious

Crap parenting AGAIN.

Mammy, I want it but can't afford it.
Have it anyway twinkle, someone else will pay for it for you.

Assetbacked

The entitlement in Irish society is despicable at the top and bottom. 'tis no country for young working men and women.

silver2020

cruizer101 wrote: »

More than half the council’s 24,400 tenants are behind on their rent, with 20 per cent more than six months in arrears.

That is absolutely nuts

one of the reasons a certain number of people will stay in temporary accommodation rather than get rent supplement as a real landlord would kick them out.

No problem for these people to pay for alcohol, fags & takeaways - leading to strain on health system and more costs.

beejee

Well in danger of focusing on the "free gaf" people here, but it is entirely across the board in ireland, and most other Western countries.

Guy on 25k a year getting pcb for a 40k car and so on. Woman on 40k a year spending 60k a year. It's truly woeful that debt has become so matter-of-fact

A borrower nor a lender be. Take that to the bank

Mezzotint

It needs reform.

With social housing, I think there needs be recourse to attachment to earnings, as otherwise you're just adding to homelessness issues.

In general our methodologies for handling unpaid debts and unpaid fines are crazy. We went from a situation where you were potentially putting people in prison for non payment (at enormous cost) to one where there's often no sanction at all.

We should have a modern system for recovering unpaid debts that aims to be fair and efficient but not cruel.

There's also a huge issue with slow and non payment in business to business transactions here which can wipe out small or vulnerable businesses' cash flow and even cause them to go insolvent.

All of those things need to be addressed.

It's also far too slow which is why these situation spiral into absolutely huge messes.

The aim should be to nip it in the bud before it ends up a mess for all parties involved, including the non paying one.

Sleepy

I'm surprised no journalist followed up with a request to see the breakdown of arrears by type (Long Term Lease, Differential, RAS, Travellers etc.)

Of course, no one would be surprised at which section represents the largest chunk of the arrears in most councils... the same section whose rent arrears officers literally wear stab vests when going out to call on their clients.

katiek102010

I do think banks and other companies do make themselves very inflexible regarding payments for services etc.

The whole system needs overhaul.

Regarding mortgages, when people take them out the banks should allow weekly, fortnightly along with monthly payment options. The borrower can foot the cost at no loss to the bank.

Same with renting

Car tax should be monthly also, bring it in line with other counties.

enricoh

cruizer101 wrote: »

More than half the council’s 24,400 tenants are behind on their rent, with 20 per cent more than six months in arrears.

That is absolutely nuts

Why bother pay, when there is no consequences?! Best little country in the world for bums!

beejee

Let's get real here. The debt of Western economies, on all scales, is 100% built in. It is a part of the system, and the system relies on it.

It is an inflationary fact that bumps balance books significantly. If it were "solvable", the very look of the country would change from "pretend" levels of wealth down to "actual" wealth.

The only time it has been corrected was world war 2 or thereabouts, ever since then all debt has accumulated and accumulated and accumulated. Debt is traded like a commodity now.

It'll end badly. You can bet your last borrowed euro on it.

Raconteuse

You only have to look at Consumer Issues and the Talk To forums here - "I got a debt letter and I don't want to pay it because my contract isn't with the debt collector" (or similar such barstool law) to be met with "Oh don't bother paying it". It's perfectly correct for a company to appoint a third party agency to act on their behalf, and if the person didn't want it going to an agency, there was a surefire way of preventing that happening.

Wanderer78

Credit/debt creation is an absolute necessity in a modern economy, the fact that it's largely controlled by institutions that aren't exactly run for the good of society, or democratic in nature, isn't so good, at some point in time we ll probably be forced to face this reality, hopefully that won't be through violence

beejee

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Credit/debt creation is an absolute necessity in a modern economy, the fact that it's largely controlled by institutions that aren't exactly run for the good of society, or democratic in nature, isn't so good, at some point in time we ll probably be forced to face this reality, hopefully that won't be through violence

The track record is mass violence, every single time!

katiek102010

beejee wrote: »

Let's get real here. The debt of Western economies, on all scales, is 100% built in. It is a part of the system, and the system relies on it.

It is an inflationary fact that bumps balance books significantly. If it were "solvable", the very look of the country would change from "pretend" levels of wealth down to "actual" wealth.

The only time it has been corrected was world war 2 or thereabouts, ever since then all debt has accumulated and accumulated and accumulated. Debt is traded like a commodity now.

It'll end badly. You can bet your last borrowed euro on it.

Unfortunately we live in a consumer driven society.

When I was leaving school it was uni, job for live in civil service or a bank.

In 2008 we went to UK and I got a job in a bank, foolishly believed my accounts and finance background would stand to me. It was a sales job. After 2 moths I told them stick their job up there arse after they decided to take disciplinary action against me for failing to make an elderly woman with 250k in the bank, go and see the finance sales rep to get her to gamble the lot on the stock exchange.

Weekly I get phone calls from bank or other companies trying to flog me credit I don't want.

Currently trying to save to buy a house for cash as I no longer trust banks

Wanderer78

beejee wrote:

The track record is mass violence, every single time!

History certainly shows us this, hopefully we have learned enough to prevent our past failures from happening again, but.....

Raconteuse

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

It would appear that the level of unpaid debt is spiraling out of control in Ireland.

DCC, TOLLS, MOTORING FINES, GENERAL COURT FINES,TV LICENCES, MORTGAGES..etc.

Why is this allowed?

Who eventually pays for the shortfall- compliant folk who seem to be shouldering the burden for the non-payers?

Strange there is no outcry from those who seem to be at every protest,picket line, demonstration, march and meeting going?

Have they no interest in this disgraceful situation.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/first-dublin-city-council-social-housing-tenant-to-be-evicted-for-rent-arrears-1.4085923.

Same self entitled kidults who go on about the country falling apart and it's third world and they're a disgrace Joe.

Wanderer78

katiek102010 wrote:

Currently trying to save to buy a house for cash as I no longer trust banks

The financial sector is absolutely untrustworthy, the previous crash has showed us why

Rubberchikken

only have a debt if you can repay it.
ive no sympathy for people who want a particular car/house/holiday/wedding etc but cant or wont pay the loan promptly.
its mot 'your' money thats being borrowed. entitlement and no sense of responsibility - the cause if a lot of crap today.

Wanderer78

Rubberchikken wrote:

only have a debt if you can repay it. ive no sympathy for people who want a particular car/house/holiday/wedding etc but cant or wont pay the loan promptly. its mot 'your' money thats being borrowed. entitlement and no sense of responsibility - the cause if a lot of crap today.

The only thing is, it's not really anyone's money, as deposits are not used as loans

katiek102010

Wanderer78 wrote: »

The financial sector is absolutely untrustworthy, the previous crash has showed us why

I have worked in financial sector and in finance within local government and civil service. I have also worked as a bailiff in UK.

Believe you me the banks are rotten to the core. Here I find credit unions a lot more trustworthy

realdanbreen

katiek102010 wrote: »

I have worked in debt management in the UK and Ireland and honestly the attachment of income is the only thing that works...
In the UK when you have a court order you can apply for an attachment order, it cost 50 quid and the costs could be added to the debt.

The attachment is a minimum of 12.5% of income and a maximum of 25%.

So for example if a person has 2k debt and on the dole getting 100 weekly you would get 12.50 weekly of the debt. If they were also getting children's allowance which is calculated weekly but paid monthly you would get 12.5% of that also allowing the maximum of 25% per month attachments.

It needs to be brought in here

Makes perfect sense. Thing is can anyone name one, just one, politician who would have the balls to make this law?

Wanderer78

katiek102010 wrote:

Believe you me the banks are rotten to the core. Here I find credit unions a lot more trustworthy

I do also believe this, even though I'd imagine the majority of individuals working in the swevtor are just normal genuine folk, it's the inbuilt ideology and incentive schemes seems to be highly problematic, and in fact dangerous for all

Taxburden carrier

Magic money tree ?

BarryD2

katiek102010 wrote: »

I have worked in debt management in the UK and Ireland and honestly the attachment of income is the only thing that works...
In the UK when you have a court order you can apply for an attachment order, it cost 50 quid and the costs could be added to the debt.

The attachment is a minimum of 12.5% of income and a maximum of 25%.

So for example if a person has 2k debt and on the dole getting 100 weekly you would get 12.50 weekly of the debt. If they were also getting children's allowance which is calculated weekly but paid monthly you would get 12.5% of that also allowing the maximum of 25% per month attachments.

It needs to be brought in here

Agreed that's the most appropriate solution. There's been considerable resistance in the past when the idea has been mooted, think of the poor childer etc., who don't deserve to suffer because of the sins of their parents etc.

But until there are real and meaningful consequences, there's no real reason for many people to make the effort. Once your credit rating is shot, you may as well be hung for a sheep as a lamb.

Wanderer78

Taxburden carrier wrote:

Magic money tree ?

Yes, I'd say the actual process of money creation is rather magical

scamalert

As someone mentioned if it was broken down in demographic of people who dont pay at all, this thread would be fairly one way.

you dont hear regular joe skipping on court, its rare that someone uses UK imports to drive as their daily without any insruance tax etc.

so better question why do regular people pay when fraction of society get actually paid for the lifestyle they choose

blackbox

cruizer101 wrote: »

More than half the council’s 24,400 tenants are behind on their rent, with 20 per cent more than six months in arrears.

That is absolutely nuts

I'd say this is because the councils are a soft touch. Obviously there are some difficult cases, but I suspect that a large proportion of these defaulters keep up their payments for Sky and are able to buy a few drinks and maybe even cigarettes - things they see as a higher priority than paying the rent.

Better Than Christ

Raconteuse wrote: »

You only have to look at Consumer Issues and the Talk To forums here - "I got a debt letter and I don't want to pay it because my contract isn't with the debt collector" (or similar such barstool law) to be met with "Oh don't bother paying it". It's perfectly correct for a company to appoint a third party agency to act on their behalf, and if the person didn't want it going to an agency, there was a surefire way of preventing that happening.

If it's in the hundreds, rather than thousands, the "don't bother paying it" advice usually works, because the amount isn't high enough for the debt collectors to justify expensive legal action. If the threatening letters don't work (and increasingly, they don't because people are wise to their lack of power), they have nowhere else to go.