Enzokk wrote: » At the moment there is no path to remain in the UK with the Tories in charge. There is no chance to revoke as the Lib Dems will not win a majority. Whatever Corbyn may believe about the EU, he is offering a second referendum with a choice to remain. If you are a remainer in the UK and your constituency isn't a current Lib Dem seat or close marginal with the Lib Dems then the choice is surely Labour.
Also if Labour wins you don't want your leader to take a stance because if you lose he will resign, see Cameron.
How could he implement a policy he doesn't believe in?
He will get the best deal from the EU he can get as believing in Brexit doesn't mean a better deal, see May vs Johnson. So for me trying to focus on his personal view when it is the policy he will enact is a red herring.
johnnyskeleton wrote: » It matters what Labour stand for, and by extension it matters what their leader does. It's not so much what way he would vote, so much as what way he would campaign. If I were in the U.K. and wanted to remain, I'd struggle to vote for a Labour MP. Even if they were an individual pro remain MP, one has to have an eye to what the Leader of that party and, by extension, a minority but significant part of that party, wants to do.
Sam Russell wrote: » I think Corbyn should have answered the conundrum of how he will vote after he has negotiated his deal is to say: 'It depends on the deal - what I want is a deal that meets the six tests - If it does, then I will campaign for it, If not then remain is the better option'. He should not get dragged into hypothetical question as there be dragons. It does not help that his own compass tells him that out of the EU is what he has always believed, and still does. And everyone knows that as well. He should be on total attack of Tory lies, and particularly, Johnson lies. 'He is not dead in a ditch!' 'We are still in the EU, and Oct 31st has passed!' 'The PM pulled the WAB, not the opposition!' 'The 40 hospitals is a myth - there is no funding and no plans!' 'The NHS is under threat from the Tories - they plan to allow the US companies to run it for profit!' etc. etc. He should not let the liars of Downing St win.
robinph wrote: » What else would you do though if you wanted remain. Unless you are in Brighton and can vote Green, Scotland and can vote SNP or one of the few other locations where there is a LibDem option then the only choice left that isn't some version of Brexit is to vote Labour and then vote for remain in the 2nd referendum if they get in.
ancapailldorcha wrote: » Ultimately, a lot of people just do not trust Corbyn. He has constantly demurred, prevaricated and obfuscated. Yes, he has now said that he will hold a referendum with remain on the ballot but that distrust is still present. He has associations with known communists who are openly hostile to the EU and who did their bit to frustrate Alan Johnson's Labour Remain campaign in 2016, namely Seumas Milne and Andrew Murray. What you have said is not illogical. However, a lot of people are still wary of voting Labour when there is a party more committed to the Remain cause on the ballot even if their chances are poor.
Enzokk wrote: » No doubt there is a feeling among people in the UK that they cannot trust Corbyn. I don't understand it but then again I have no interest in the Daily Mail or other news papers that have been pushing this agenda. I do find the following interesting though in regard to the election, firstly it seems viewers thought both Corbyn and Johnson did well but Corbyn did do better.
ancapailldorcha wrote: » Frankly, that's quite condescending. There are plenty of people who distrust Corbyn who've never purchased a tabloid here. I don't trust him because he's voted against the EU ever since it was just the EEC in the seventies. I don't trust him because he refused to share a platform with previous Labour prime ministers as part of the Labour remain campaign while being willing and able to refer to organisations like Hamas and Hezbollah as his friends. I don't trust him because of his mealy-mouthed response to the Salisbury attacks. I don't trust him because of his continued support for despots like Morales and Maduro not to mention the authoritarian Cuban regime. I don't trust him because of his warmth towards the IRA. I don't trust him because he took money from Iranian state TV.
Enzokk wrote: » And then this, it seems like the NHS is becoming more important than Brexit for people and this is bad for the Tories.https://twitter.com/JoeMurphyLondon/status/1197139107501223936?s=20 This with the press now hopefully starting to ask Johnson the questions on where the 40 new hospitals will be and how he thinks they will build 34 new hospitals with the £100m allocated, I think there is still time for this election to turn.
ancapailldorcha wrote: » Frankly, that's quite condescending. There are plenty of people who distrust Corbyn who've never purchased a tabloid here. ...I don't trust him because he's voted against the EU ever since it was just the EEC in the seventies. I don't trust him because he refused to share a platform with previous Labour prime ministers as part of the Labour remain campaign...
robinph wrote: » Brexit is the thing that needs to be stopped happening as it can't be reversed once it's happened, anything else that Labour might do can be reversed by the next government if needed.
But the PM said bringing in the £9,500 threshold sooner would "help with the cost of living" and "put £500 in the pocket of everybody" - although a later press release claimed the saving would be around £100 per person. Both figures are still higher than the estimate of the Institute for Fiscal Studies, who said the threshold would save workers about £85 per year and cost the government £2bn.
Capt'n Midnight wrote: » The problem is that people will remember the announcements and not the later corrections.
Figures from tech industry analyst Context show a remarkable jump in server, storage and networking sales in the Republic of Ireland through the last two quarters, pointing to companies continuing to invest in insurance against a hard Brexit. Against a backdrop of falling European sales, UK sales slumped 14 per cent in the third quarter, while sales in Ireland jumped 34.8 per cent in the second quarter and 26 per cent in the third quarter of 2019 compared to the same periods last year. ... There are 55 active data centres in Ireland and another 35 in the pipeline – and eight of those are already under construction.
liamtech wrote: » Aside from his Brexit policy Jeremy could be holding a winning hand here - and all of the other concerns you listed become simple 'he said she said's' - they could just be dismissed as opinions he held, always a man of piece, an honest Broker out to hear both sides' etc etc Add co-operation with other Remain/Unite to remain groups- that's a full house, as far as i would be concerned. But maintain his Brexit stance, and he is an easy target, and can be labeled the ditherer, who doesn't quite know what he wants, or at least wont say what he wants to the electorate Bottom line is he did fantastic in the debate in my view. And i hope he does well but the best i am expecting is denying BoJo a majority
Bit cynical wrote: » But unfortunately for Corbyn, of course, is that this is the Brexit Election. From the individual voter's perspective it is hard to see why you would vote Labour on Brexit policy regardless of your position on Brexit itself. Labour's rejection of no deal (i.e. cancel Brexit if they can't negotiate a satisfactory deal) is hardly a threat to the EU during negotiations since Brexit is not in the interest of the EU in the first place. Then the referendum on the deal: if a very unattractive deal is negotiated then it will be rejected by the people and Brexit is canceled. Again where is the incentive for the EU to negotiate a good deal? If you are in favour of Brexit you will reject Labours policy. If you are against Brexit, then the Lib Dems have a much more attractive position without the rigmarole of Labour. Labour's stance made a certain amount of sense in opposition but now it is working against them.
Joe_ Public wrote: » You would vote labour, i presume, if you saw it as the only or best way of getting to a second referendum. It is possible, of couse, that a lot of remain voters still wont but it still remains the case that a labour led government is the only reality path to remaining in the eu. The notion floating around today that the lib dems could somehow trade johnson into granting a second referendum seems fanciful to me.
quokula wrote: » The Tories and the right wing media want it to be the Brexit election. Brexit is not the number one issue for voters, and it’s trending downwards. So it’s probably inaccurate to call it the Brexit election. With that said Labour still have the only mature, workable policy of any major party on Brexit. They can’t pursue a damaging Brexit that would harm the country, and they can’t revoke out of hand and disenfranchise more than half the electorate. They’re doing the only responsible thing they can, even if it is potentially a harder sell.
LuckyLloyd wrote: » Voting Lib Dem and in the process gifting them an extra maybe 10 - 15 seats but also confirming a whopping Conservative majority will be the last silly act of the completely hapless and defeated remain cause in the UK. If you want to stop Brexit you need a Labour government and the second referendum they will provide. That’s it. The Lib Dem’s cannot win this election which means they cannot enact their revoke policy which means a vote for them is a vote to leave on Johnson’s deal. For sure, it highlights the major issues with using a general election to try and solve the issue but here we are. Voting for the Lib Dems as a remainer because you don’t like Corbyn is the voting equivalent of a selfish teenage tantrum. Useless and self defeating.
Bit cynical wrote: » However I would wonder how many voters want a second referendum for its own sake as opposed to as a means of cancelling Brexit. I agree with your other point about Johnson granting a second referendum. However legally they can cancel Brexit and if they were to get a majority on a cancel Brexit ticket they would have the democratic mandate to do that. Yes it would upset Leave supporters but holding another referendum is going to upset Leave supporters just as much particularly in the circumstances in which it is likely to be held under Labour. The problems is that they can't change from their earlier policy in opposition to this now without being subject to accusations of flip flopping.
Bit cynical wrote: » Labour's rejection of no deal (i.e. cancel Brexit if they can't negotiate a satisfactory deal) is hardly a threat to the EU during negotiations since Brexit is not in the interest of the EU in the first place. Then the referendum on the deal: if a very unattractive deal is negotiated then it will be rejected by the people and Brexit is canceled. Again where is the incentive for the EU to negotiate a good deal?
listermint wrote: » Tactical voting on Both sides is the the only answer. Your simplistic stuff about voting labour won't cut it ever. There has to be a shared tactictal voting agreement between labour greens and LD. So far labour and LD are both being pricks about it.
CelticRambler wrote: » The EU negotiates trade deals with a willing partner. The UK - or at least the Leave campaign and enabling Tory government - has stated categorically that it is not a willing partner. From that point onwards, the EU's position is to protect its internal market as a priority and create opportunities for its own businesses second. Negotiating a "good" deal for the UK is not part of the EU negotiating team's mandate.
Leroy42 wrote: » But what if you a remain voter that doesn't agree with Labour policy? Just as people claim that once Brexit is out of the way giving the Tories a majority will give them licence to do whatever they want, the same is true for Labour. So voting Lib Dems means that, if the numbers work out, Lib Dems could be the brake (should be) on the most extreme lefty notions of Corbyn and the rest. And remember, that throughout the last parliament, the line that 87% (or whatever) voting for parties that stated that they would carry out the will of the people. Well a vote for Labour can still be argued that way, certainly in terms of Brexit itself.
stefanovich wrote: » Of course the UK wants a deal, as does the EU. Everything else is just posturing. The EU is a protectionist entity at its core. The Germans will still want to sell BMWs to the UK.
LuckyLloyd wrote: » Still peddling lines about the German car makers swooping in to grant the UK unicorns? Have ye paid no attention to the reality of this thing since 2016?
