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Why aren't you a vegan!?

[Deleted User]

Cards on the table, I'm not a vegan.

That said, it's very hard to argue against the common vegan. After all, almost nobody argues that there is some positive benefit toward the infliction of suffering on animals.

Nobody would argue in favour of collecting dogs in the back of a truck, and sending them off for slaughter in some local abatoir. But that's precisely what happens with the other sentient animals.

The process is often brutal, but even if it were pain-free, the argument goes that animals shouldn't be killed in the same way we wouldn't recommend it for horses or dogs.

I can't really think of a valid argument against veganism. You'd think, then, that I would convert to veganism, but I haven't - and won't. It's a purely selfish endeavour, then, because I'm being hypocritical about how I would react if I saw dogs treated in the same way as farmed animals.

True, there are evolutionary reasons for eating meat. I think the argument now is that there are sufficient plant alternatives.

So, why aren't you a vegan?

Perhaps you have a valid position I, or others here, haven't thought of.

But thus far, I can't frame a case against it.

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[Deleted User]

Deleted User wrote: »

Would you be comfortable if dogs or horses or cats were farmed in accordance with the same methods, then, to add more diversity to our menus?

Yes

FeirmeoirtTed

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

I am a vegan because like you OP, I saw no argument against it, and many for it. I didn't want to be at all but felt I should, was a pain in the ass at first, it was way harder back then than now - find it a doddle these days. Put it off for a long time (partly because of annoying vegans! haha) but I am much happier now living in line with what I believe to be right.

A vegan bakery won best bakery in Ireland last week which was pretty cool I thought! I also just ate the pizza that won the best pizza in the world this week, and it is vegan. Much easier to buy than cook all right haha As it becomes more convenient people will do it, that's really the only way to get most people to do anything!

My sister is vegan too, so is her son. He'll grow up knowing how to make good food so it'll be easier for him. We all come from farms and farmland, yet even my mother eats a load of vegan meals now, has oat milk instead of dairy milk and so on. years ago she wouldn't even try it!

One of my kids brought me in a best teacher in the world mug last week its probably more true than those awards in that it's heartfelt innocence rather than propaganda which is exactly what the netflix documentary on plant based diets is. As for the canines in our mouths being for chewing the face off each other..... scientist you say proved it thats in my opinion a pile of animal sh**t*. Each to their own I say I of you want to be a vegan go nuts il probably rely more on my intuition and raise my kids non vegan so they have the benefit of all wholesome fresh farmed and local meat and dairy products. Regardless of what the scientists say.

[Deleted User]

Deleted User wrote: »

I suspect though as the vegan movement gains more traction, there'll be more debate than ever on how farm animals are treated.

So when it comes to the treatment of farm animals, is it a case that you don't care about how animals are treated/killed? (I'm not a vegan; though I'm curious to see how other people react to the claims)

But plants aren't "sentient".

Plants know when they are under attack and can enlist help of other plants or insects to defend themselves.

tayto lover

Deleted User wrote: »

Plants know when they are under attack and can enlist help if other plants or insects to defend themselves.

Ah Jaysus. Star Trek stuff.

emaherx

wassie wrote: »

I suspect sometime within the next 20 years meat in first world countries eaters will most likely be eating synthetically grown meat or 'cultured meat', sourced from the DNA of the finest specimens of each type of meat. Solves the whole slaughter debate and sustainability issues also.

The basic technology exists today.

Eating synthetic meat, but what will we do with all the meat from animals which will require regular culling due to a lack of natural predators? Should we just shoot them and dump them? Or reintroduce wolves and bears?

[Deleted User]

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

This will really be what kills off traditional animal farming, it'll eventually scale and be cheaper. One of the companies is already in distribution talks with the biggest meat manufacturer in the world. They are making easier things like chicken nuggets kinda crap and working on wagyu steak at the same time.

These first chicken nuggets were grown from a feather two years ago, so people were eating chicken while the actual chicken was walking around beside them that it came from.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GgP6jo5DTM

Yeah it's easy enough for minced/processed, much harder task for a cut of steak.

I look forward to it, tbh (have since first saw the early start years back)

Rikand

Milk, chocolate, cheese, butter

I couldn't give up any of them. I could do vegetarianism and by in large I do eat very little meat as it is, but no way could I live without dairy

Or eggs for that matter. Feckin love eggs

khaldrogo

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Would you be comfortable if dogs or horses or cats were farmed in accordance with the same methods, then, to add more diversity to our menus?

Give it time......once the apocalypse happens we will be eating cats and dogs

seamusk84

Gave up red meat 4 years back and went full vegetarian at the start of 2019. No regrets, I've a lot more life to me now. Skin conditions cleared up completely for some reason. Also way easier to manage my weight.

Full Vegan....Too difficult to manage. Would have to be so careful about everything it would suck the joy out of life. Got to live a little! Also need milk in my coffee.

Stopped eating meat for ethical reasons. Seriously what we do to all livestock is proper horrific in this country.

[Deleted User]

emaherx wrote: »

Eating synthetic meat, but what will we do with all the meat from animals which will require regular culling due to a lack of natural predators? Should we just shoot them and dump them? Or reintroduce wolves and bears?

The herds will reduce (by us eating them) and there'll always be a market for "real" meat.

If I'm BBQing I'd want a good ribeye on the bone, full goose/turkey for christmas etc

[Deleted User]

tayto lover wrote: »

Ah Jaysus. Star Trek stuff.

Haha, you're actually right. Where do you think they got the mycelial network idea from, in Discovery?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4497361/

Adaptive behaviour of plants, including rapid changes in physiology, gene regulation and defence response, can be altered when linked to neighbouring plants by a mycorrhizal network (MN). Mechanisms underlying the behavioural changes include mycorrhizal fungal colonization by the MN or interplant communication via transfer of nutrients, defence signals or allelochemicals.

And trees call in wasps to defend them against infestation
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0000852

emaherx

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The herds will recuce (by us eating them) and there'll always be a market for "real" meat.

If I'm BBQing I'd want a good ribeye on the bone, full goose/turkey for christmas etc

Point is though, if left unchecked herds will grow naturally, a predator is required to keep ecosystems from being over run by herd animals. Animals must be killed whether by humans or other natural predators or their numbers will grow out of control. Natural predators don't stun their prey first, nature is much more gruesome than farming.

LoughNeagh2017

I have worked in meat factories, not in the slaughter but in the warehouse part. I saw videos of the slaughter during the training day and the cows are given an injection to give them a heart attack and I think they are decapitated when they are unconscious but it never showed that part.

I am not a vegan because it is too difficult to be one, if I had my way I would repay the favour by having my body fed to the cows when i die buy that isn't allowed.

is_that_so

wassie wrote: »

Yes - I think the long term implication for beef production is massive.

To intensive farming, especially any that involves land clearing sure but not everyone farms the same way. Research going on into a regenerative approach as it apparently can sequester carbon.

https://www.fastcompany.com/90368127/is-it-possible-to-raise-a-carbon-neutral-cow

Longer research piece here from the FAO.
http://www.fao.org/fileadmin/templates/agphome/documents/climate/AGPC_grassland_webversion_19.pdf

[Deleted User]

LoughNeagh2017 wrote: »

I have worked in meat factories, not in the slaughter but in the warehouse part. I saw videos of the slaughter during the training day and the cows are given an injection to give them a heart attack and I think they are decapitated when they are unconscious but it never showed that part.

I am not a vegan because it is too difficult to me one, if I had my way I would repay the favour by having my body fed to the cows when i die buy that isn't allowed.

First week of a food processing module for a biology degree showed every type of slaughter going on, in Ireland. Each step in close up detail. Meh

[Deleted User]

emaherx wrote: »

Point is though, if left unchecked herds will grow naturally, a predator is required to keep ecosystems from being over run by herd animals. Animals must be killed whether by humans or other natural predators or their numbers will grow out of control. Natural predators don't stun their prey first, nature is much more gruesome than farming.

But there will not be unchecked herds. Any introduction of synthetic meats would take years to gain traction and herds would just decrease to match

Eric Cartman

Couldnt tolerate it, animal products make up most of my diet and I dont believe a human can live a healthy full life without them. I think veganism is a fad and the latest ‘womens weighloss pop contest’ bonded on to animal rights to make it seem more whole. The world will soon be over this and we’ll be on to the next thing.

[Deleted User]

Eric Cartman wrote: »

The world will soon be over this and we’ll be on to the next thing.

Any idea what that could be...!?

Eric Cartman

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Any idea what that could be...!?

Some other fad diet that makes you exclude half the foods available thus losing weight by sheer restriction.

emaherx

[Deleted User] wrote: »

But there will not be unchecked herds. Any introduction of synthetic meats would take years to gain traction and herds would just decrease to match

That's exactly my point, killing animals will remain a necessity regardless of how many people will want to claim they don't eat animals for ethical reasons.

Feisar

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

Do you see people overpower each other often
Here's an irish vegan lifting 750lbs (340kg), there's a reason the video has millions of views! Strong dude!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QdTc2Gv52uI

There's a new documentary out about plantbased athletes on netflix that is really good, i saw it in the cinema recently
https://www.netflix.com/title/81157840

That's all well and good however he is an outlier, what do the top 100 powerlifters eat?

Feisar

GooglePlus wrote: »

That whole canine steer has been disproven. Our ancestors used them for biting lads down at the watering hole, they're purely for fighting, not meat.

Isn't it also proven the nutrient dense meat is the reason we developed into humans?

[Deleted User]

emaherx wrote: »

That's exactly my point, killing animals will remain a necessity regardless of how many people will want to claim they don't eat animals for ethical reasons.

And it will get to a point where you will have the vast majority eating synthetic (it's not synthetic, it is still meat but factory grown)

Once this happens the herd size will diminish to meet the lower (by a lot) demand. You will just have a few boutique farms supplying a niche market.

Ultimanemo

If we all become vegan farm animals will go extinct, I don't see many people will be keeping pet cows, do animals prefer that, I doubt.

emaherx

[Deleted User] wrote: »

And it will get to a point where you will have the vast majority eating synthetic (it's not synthetic, it is still meat but factory grown)

Once this happens the herd size will diminish to meet the lower (by a lot) demand. You will just have a few boutique farms supplying a niche market.

And, all the farm land will just remain empty..... What about the wild deer?

wassie

emaherx wrote: »

And, all the farm land will just remain empty..... What about the wild deer?

Farm land in Ireland is extremely fertile and can be put to many uses.

Feisar

wassie wrote: »

Farm land in Ireland is extremely fertile and can be put to many uses.

Are you a farmer?

emaherx

wassie wrote: »

Farm land in Ireland is extremely fertile and can be put to many uses.

Like what?
Most of it is not suitable as arable land. And if it was it would be all the more reason why deer numbers would be controlled through culling.

skooterblue2

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Some nutrients are far more bioavailable via meat. Iron, for example.

Vitamin B12 also. My sister in law is vegan and a pure melter.

ted1

Stopped eating red meat about two months ago. Seen the burning of the rain forest to make room for Cattle was to much to take.
Tried vegan but to hard. I may transition fully in a few months.