Niallof9 wrote: » and the IRFU let one of the most talented Munster backs leave so they could give a central contract to Devin Toner or Jack McGrath. Genius really.
Shefwedfan wrote: » No I wasn't "whinging"..... I still maintain the Carbery move was wrong because I think he is better at 15, also at that time Munster had plenty of alternatives and if anything he should have went to Ulster if he wanted to play 10. Munster ended up moving a home grown 10 out of the club to make space, up to Ulster, how does that make sense?
aloooof wrote: » Sorry Shef but I don’t think this is true. Drico missed the Amlin final so McFadden was moved to centre, and Conway introduced. Rob Kearney missed the Pro 12 final so Nacewa was moved to 15, and Conway introduced. (Conway was even named on the bench initially). He started both finals, but that doesn’t mean he was the starting winger that season.
Shefwedfan wrote: » Conway was playing first team rugby with Leinster, he was the starting winger and started in both finals that seasons.....
Zzippy wrote: » As I wrote, no, there is a lack of transparency that doesn't permit that level of scrutiny. If you have evidence to contradict the common perception that Leinsters playing budget a significantly ahead feel free to provide it. .
Zzippy wrote: » As to other players, Mike McCarthy is another one. Fionn Carr and Cian Kelleher are two more. All of those players severely weakened Connacht's squad, you couldn't argue Carr and Kelleher were actually needed at Leinster.
Zzippy wrote: » As I wrote, no, there is a lack of transparency that doesn't permit that level of scrutiny. If you have evidence to contradict the common perception that Leinsters playing budget a significantly ahead feel free to provide it. Welsh rugby journalist Simon Thomas has written about this and estimated playing budgets but I haven't time to Google his articles. As to other players, Mike McCarthy is another one. Fionn Carr and Cian Kelleher are two more. All of those players severely weakened Connacht's squad, you couldn't argue Carr and Kelleher were actually needed at Leinster.
sydthebeat wrote: » So you know the playing budgets of each province? Do you know how much the IRFU give towards each province to pay salaries? Do you know how much money each province generates which goes towards salaries? If you do, please share. Also, who have leinster "taken"? The only players in the last 10 years I can think of are cronin and Henshaw? Cronin had reached his ceiling at connacht, and unashamedly had ambitions beyond what they could offer, and with fogarty retiring there was a spot at leinster. And that was 8 years ago. Henshaws reasons for leaving connacht are well documented at this stage. Anyone else? Or is that the extent of leinsters 'poaching' ??
Zzippy wrote: » It's also a very opaque system, with the lack of transparency in IRFU accounts and selection criteria for CCs not helping.
awec wrote: » You're the same Shefwedfan who was whinging when Leinster players moved province? This whole "it's all about the Irish team" only really applies so long as Leinster get to keep their players and remain top dogs, right? Give us a break.
aloooof wrote: » Also, take Andrew Conway for example, who falls outside Shef’s criteria. Would he be the player he is today if he had stayed at Leinster and gotten far less game time? I don’t think so. Instead, he moved to Munster at 22, 6 years ago, with a better chance of first team appearances. Munster are due some credit for his development also. Munster need to do more, but I think overlooking examples like Conway doesn’t tell the full story either.
Shefwedfan wrote: » So today we have gone from just handing out Central Contracts to anyone to get them off the wage bill at a particular province to just buying in players with no thought or consideration to the Irish team Didn't take too long after the WC to forget all about ireland and bringing more young Irish player through the system..... Now the answer is, f**k the young Irish lad when we can get someone in from NZ or Aus.....
Shefwedfan wrote: » As usual, all these discussion end up in "Bad bad Leinster" then we get the "poor poor XYZ province" We should disregards the facts some of these provinces have hired poor management teams, brought in poor player from abroad and wasted millions and millions of the years.....but all of that is forgot because Leinster are bad......
awec wrote: » Says who? Again, as I pointed out earlier, you have no idea whether Munster have got any worse at developing players, or whether they (and the others) have just been unable to keep up with the advances made by Leinster due to a lack of money and resources. The best Ulster team in over a decade was built on the back of key NIQs. I'd go back to those days in a heartbeat. Your example is poor.
Shefwedfan wrote: » Nobody is asking the other provinces to match Leinster....But Munster having 1 Munster born player under 30 in a World Cup squad is hardly developing players now is it? Why should the provinces be allowed to sign more foreigner players? just to stop any chance of a young player getting into the squad? ulster only started to turn the corner when they stopping bringing in player on huge contracts and promoted all the young players. Now you want to go back to big money signing like Piutau??? a player who got massive wages and wasn't fit half the time...... Is that the new answer?
awec wrote: » I don't think anyone thinks this is Leinster's fault. I just took issue with the idea that the current setup is working for Irish Rugby as a whole, when my view is that it's only one province who are ever consistently any good. I took issue with the idea that all the other teams need to do is try a bit harder to develop some players, which the reality is they will never match Leinster in this department, so holding them to the same standards is grossly unfair. I have no issue with Leinster having the majority of the central contracts, but the IRFU should therefore be devoting serious resources, including money, into the other three provinces to get them up to the same standard. They should be allowed to sign more foreign players to raise the standards if required. Having the same "rules" for Leinster as everyone else really makes a mockery of the whole thing. If another decade goes by and Leinster dominate it like they've done the decade just past then this is either a failure on the part of the IRFU, or we're all being sold snake oil right now and this charade of "four proud provinces" needs to end.
Zzippy wrote: » Who said anything about offering higher contracts? There are other ways to tempt players to move. It's just a bit rich hearing some Leinster fans on a high horse about developing players for other provinces when they're not averse to taking some of the best developed players from those provinces. It's a bit more galling when those players subsequently get central contracts with Leinster, a CC which could have really helped the other province with their meagre playing budget.
sydthebeat wrote: » The whole point was about provincial development and the effect central contracts has on Ireland. Someone mentioned about leinster having more central contacts therefore they've have money to spend on foreign players.. Ironically name checking tomane. The point I was making is that leinster do not fill their squad with foreign players, but actually have a ridiculously high number of leinster developed players. I incorrectly referred to foreign players as NIQ, when my point was about in house developed versus externally developed. Its true that munster and Ulster have serious problems developing players to senior level, especially to test level.It is that this is somehows leinsters fault that I have a problem with.
sydthebeat wrote: » Cherry picking? I thought provinces were not allowed offer higher contracts than others
Zzippy wrote: » Of course it's not a level playing field. Leinster have a lot of natural advantages in terms of population, number of clubs, schools, etc and they therefore contribute disproportionately to the national team. They have huge commercial advantages too in terms of population, urban concentration, access to large market, sponsorship and greater income. The question I was posing, in relation to central contracts, is whether Leinster really need the additional help with their budget that CCs give them. Wrt your last point, if the provinces didn't take some of Leinster's excess players they would have few other options - they can't all get pro contracts in Leinster. Leinster-developed players moving to other provinces is a good thing for Irish rugby. And let's not forget, it's not all one-way traffic, and other teams have suffered quite badly from Leinster cherry picking players they have developed.
sydthebeat wrote: » thats a fair point about the player welfare.. i suppose it is just more in your face in regards to the irish first teamers and the lack of provincial games they play. for example i cant see the IRFU having much influence in ulster in regards to the amount of games mcclousky, marshall, gilroy etc play. in regard to leinster and their foreign players... well leinster have significantly less NIQs than other provinces, so its doesnt make any sense to try to argue that by having more players on CC leinster has more money to entice NIQ players. nucifora has to sign off on every singing anyway. Tomane is actually a pretty poor example of how cc savings should be spent. Ulster have carter and coetzee and i would be very surprises they are on less of a wedge than tomane. its not a level playing field because leinster develop such high quality players. simple as. As long as leinster are feeding the provinces players in lieu of the provinces developing their won, it will remain to be an unequal playing field.
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