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Brexit discussion thread XII (Please read OP before posting)

ancapailldorcha

This is the twelfth incarnation of our Brexit discussion thread.

I appreciate that the end of Brexit is or may be in sight (insofar as one can be certain) but please bear the following in mind before posting:

Insults directed at popular figures are not acceptable in this forum
Please do not post memes, videos or comedy links here
Please do not be uncivil to other posters
Please use the report function to alert the mods when necessary
Discussion of Sinn Féin's longstanding policy of abstention from Westminster is not suitable for this thread. Posts on this subject may be deleted

Previous thread is here:

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2058016732

United Ireland thread:

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2058014553

Scottish Independence thread:

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2058023269

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Strazdas

Deleted User wrote: »

If you asked Guy Verhofstadt if he was against illegal data sharing, he would presumably say yes.

On principle, he would be right.

Here, it's just a childish reaction and one unbecoming of a politician who is supposed to uphold the law - not welcoming breaches of it, regardless of who is affected by those breaches.

Leave.EU have form for hurling insults at Verhofstadt. Check this email out :

https://leave.eu/help-us-get-euromeddler-guy-verhofstadt-locked-up/

A Dub in Glasgo

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Polls getting worse for Labour. I'd been doing some straw-clutching at how things developed in 2017 but we are into the period now where they had started to turn towards Labour.

Kantar give Tories an 18 point lead.

The Times is reporting this

PeadarCo

https://www.businessinsider.com/government-has-no-plans-for-economic-assessment-of-brexit-deal-2019-11?r=US&IR=T

https://www.businessinsider.com/eu-uk-will-only-be-given-bare-bones-trade-deal-after-brexit-2019-11?r=US&IR=T

Meanwhile outside the UK election the world carries on. Johnsons not currently planning to conduct an economic assessment of his deal. Which tells you all you need to know about what he thinks of the deal.

Also the EU to nobody's surprise the EU will only be offering a basic trade agreement if the current withdrawal agreement is accepted. This is due to the time constraints involved. Something which experts had predicted.

Capt'n Midnight

Boris isn't being called out on blatant lies.

"40 new hospitals"

"lowest corporation tax in Europe"

[Deleted User]

Sam Coates just revealed on live Sky News.

51% state Johnson won.
49% state Corbyn won.

So, whilst this left-leaning forum are reporting 90%+ Corbyn won; the facts are very different on the ground in the UK.

BonnieSituation

Deleted User wrote: »

Sam Coates just revealed on live Sky News.

51% state Johnson won.
49% state Corbyn won.

So, whilst this left-leaning forum are reporting 90%+ Corbyn won; the facts are very different on the ground in the UK.

Well, we all watched it. I suppose, you'd know delusion at first hand eh?

LuckyLloyd

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Sam Coates just revealed on live Sky News.

51% state Johnson won.
49% state Corbyn won.

So, whilst this left-leaning forum are reporting 90%+ Corbyn won; the facts are very different on the ground in the UK.

Where is this forum reporting that?

Seems like a copy and paste job there!

EDIT: my bad, I did not see the stickied thread. Apologies.

gooch2k9

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Where is this forum reporting that?

Seems like a copy and paste job there!

He's referring to the poll on the dedicated thread. That's as much as I'm willing to engage on that point.

liamtech

Deleted User wrote: »

Sam Coates just revealed on live Sky News.

51% state Johnson won.
49% state Corbyn won.

So, whilst this left-leaning forum are reporting 90%+ Corbyn won; the facts are very different on the ground in the UK.

So those election polls you are quite fond of quoting? the ones that show the Torys 10-14% ahead - not looking very accurate after tonight!

Next Poll will be VITAL in seeing where we stand - you have to admit that. if the polls maintain a massive tory lead then its not looking good for remainers - but if there is a narrowing of the gap

onward and upwards!

Indestructable

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Sam Coates just revealed on live Sky News.

51% state Johnson won.
49% state Corbyn won.

So, whilst this left-leaning forum are reporting 90%+ Corbyn won; the facts are very different on the ground in the UK.

You see a similar trend on the UK politics subreddit. Absolute hivemind there and shock and awe when every poll has a significant Tory lead. Polls count for little sure, but they are upsetting the narrative.

[Deleted User]

liamtech wrote: »

So those election polls you are quite fond of quoting? the ones that show the Torys 10-14% ahead - not looking very accurate after tonight!

Next Poll will be VITAL in seeing where we stand - you have to admit that. if the polls maintain a massive tory lead then its not looking good for remainers - but if there is a narrowing of the gap

onward and upwards!

It's a TV debate.

For example, I admitted May lost the debates in 2017, but would still have voted for her.

It's not a direct correlation.

Almost everyone here dismisses Johnson as an obvious liar etc., yet Johnson still wins a debate against Corbyn.

Now that they lose the TV debate, Corbyn supporters are happy with a dead-lock, or minor loss.

liamtech

Deleted User wrote: »

It's a TV debate.

For example, I admitted May lost the debates in 2017, but would still have voted for her.

It's not a direct correlation.

Almost everyone here dismisses Johnson as an obvious liar etc., yet Johnson still wins a debate against Corbyn.

Now that they lose the TV debate, Corbyn supporters are happy with a dead-lock, or minor loss.

just checked there and it seems you were not a member of Boards in 2017 - so where did you admit this?

[Deleted User]

liamtech wrote: »

just checked there and it seems you were not a member of Boards in 2017 - so where did you admit this?

Sorry, I meant that - in 2017 - I admitted at the time, anywhere, that May was a terrible performer and Corbyn outmatched her massively.

But a "performance" doesn't mean I must agree with the "politics".

Ultimately, this "debate" will have next to no impact on voters. Nothing has changed. It was a repeat of the same lines over and over, by each side, and that's what matters.

But in my personal view, on a debating standpoint, I think Johnson clinched it.

liamtech

Deleted User wrote: »

Sorry, I meant that - in 2017 - I admitted at the time, anywhere, that May was a terrible performer and Corbyn outmatched her massively.

But a "performance" doesn't mean I must agree with the "politics".

Ultimately, this "debate" will have next to no impact on voters. Nothing has changed. It was a repeat of the same lines over and over, by each side, and that's what matters.

But in my personal view, on a debating standpoint, I think Johnson clinched it.

The Polls will tell - we will just have to wait and see

gooch2k9

I see the Conservatives have rolled out James Cleverly over the twitter renaming thing. He must be best able to be disingenuous with a straight face.

No matter what side of the divide you're on you can't deny there is no need for that kind of craic.

Tell me how

gooch2k9 wrote: »

I see the Conservatives have rolled out James Cleverly over the twitter renaming thing. He must be best able to be disingenuous with a straight face.

No matter what side of the divide you're on you can't deny there is no need for that kind of craic.

That is such a Dominic Cummings move there might as well be video footage of him doing it.

CelticRambler

I watched an old episode of Dr. Who instead. I reckon that was more relevant to Brexit than whatever was shown on ITV.

[Deleted User]

Jeremy Corbyn did not have the backbone to announce whether he would support the New Deal or Remain.

Despite his claims, Corbyn is no better than the duplicitous politicians he complains of.

gooch2k9

Deleted User wrote: »

Jeremy Corbyn did not have the backbone to announce whether he would support the New Deal or Remain.

Despite his claims, Corbyn is no better than the duplicitous politicians he complains of.

Can he not be neutral and go with what the electorate decide? That's a valid position in my eyes.

Headshot

liamtech wrote: »

just checked there and it seems you were not a member of Boards in 2017 - so where did you admit this?

Oh I strongly suspect they were around in 2017 on boards alright.......

[Deleted User]

gooch2k9 wrote: »

Can he not be neutral and go with what the electorate decide? That's a valid position in my eyes.

No, because if Corbyn does not have the heart to negotiate a Leave deal, then his Leave negotiations would be compromised.

It's not a minor issue.

Latest statistical votes released by Sky News saying Boris Johnson is "most Prime Ministerial" and "most likeable".

These are important factors in voter intention.

Stop moaning ffs

Well at least that looks like an attempt an making a point rather than just the white noise static of the last few days

A Dub in Glasgo

Deleted User wrote: »

the facts are very different on the ground in the UK.

Facts? what facts are you posting?

gooch2k9

Deleted User wrote: »

No, because if Corbyn does not have the heart to negotiate a Leave deal, then his Leave negotiations would be compromised.

It's not a minor issue.

Latest statistical votes released by Sky News saying Boris Johnson is "most Prime Ministerial" and "most likeable".

These are important factors in voter intention.

Somehow I think Corbyn would negotiate a deal just fine. He isn't a remainer, he just doesn't want to leave at any cost. Which is an admirable position to me. His downfall in this election is getting the message across that getting Brexit "done" isn't simple and easy like Johnson presents.

His deal would certainly be better for pro Brexit supporters in NI for example. Tory deals are only getting progressively worse for them.

As for the rest ('most PM-ial'); fluff that unfortunately does matter. I'm guilty of it myself.

[Deleted User]

gooch2k9 wrote: »

Somehow I think Corbyn would negotiate a deal just fine. He isn't a remainer, he just doesn't want to leave at any cost. Which is an admirable position to me. His downfall in this election is getting the message across that getting Brexit "done" isn't simple and easy like Johnson presents.

His deal would certainly be better for pro Brexit supporters in NI for example. Tory deals are only getting progressively worse for them.

As for the rest ('most PM-ial'); fluff that unfortunately does matter. I'm guilty of it myself.

It's the classic double standard.

Corbyn avoids answering the question - gets praised.

Johnson avoids answering a question - gets killed.

It's quite an astonishing thing...

GM228

[Deleted User] wrote: »

It's the classic double standard.

Corbyn avoids answering the question - gets praised.

Johnson avoids answering a question - gets killed.

It's quite an astonishing thing...

Which question?

There's a difference when you avoid answering questions when your the PM though surely.

[Deleted User]

GM228 wrote: »

Which question?

There's a difference when you avoid answering questions when your the PM though surely.

So, if you're a prospective PM, it's acceptable to lie / dodge questions whilst proclaiming to be the United Kingdom's answer to the Socialist Messiah?

Again, replace Corbyn with Johnson and you can see the double standard on display.

Corbyn was asked at least 8 times about how he would campaign in a second referendum. He dodged it like the most slippery Tory politician would.

ArmaniJeanss

A 49-51 defeat according to the instant polls is probably decent enough for Corbyn.
Presumably it was a polling sample reflective of the situation where the Tories are 12-18 points ahead of Labour, and Johnson's approval ratings are 2x Corbyn's.
So despite the truism that people generally watch these debates to have their opinion confirmed, it would appear that a decent percentage of those who went into it as Johnson backers acknowledge that Corbyn won. Maybe a subset of those will change their vote.

Hermy

Deleted User wrote: »

So, if you're a prospective PM, it's acceptable to lie / dodge questions whilst proclaiming to be the United Kingdom's answer to the Socialist Messiah?

Again, replace Corbyn with Johnson and you can see the double standard on display.

Corbyn was asked at least 8 times about how he would campaign in a second referendum. He dodged it like the most slippery Tory politician would.

Why would you choose one liar over the other?

Spanish Eyes

Labour I think, want Tories to win on this occasion, to clean up their own Brexit dirt.

But if only Labour had a clear message to woo voters and win now.... but they don't and there is obviously a reason for that. See above.

Just my opinion.