Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

aloooof wrote: »

Can you point me to that thread? Cos I haven't come across it here.

The Munster thread....we have comments like "Best 9 in the country" etc etc.....

aloooof wrote: »

It's only a pile of excuses if you overlook resources, number of development officers, bigger population etc. etc. Otherwise it's "reasons".

Look, ultimately it's to the betterment of Irish rugby if each of the provinces are producing their own homegrown players. But the reality is they don't have a level playing field as compared Leinster (for various reasons). And that's fine; they need get more creative to bridge that gap.

I thought this was an interesting KPI from the NZ annual reports, and would go some way towards improving underage players in Ireland:

I can't say I've any idea what that figure is in Ireland, but I'd be interested to hear.

As per the podcast, one player in Ireland squad under 30. come on now that is a terrible return.

Are we saying that out of Limerick and Cork city and all the surrounding counties Munster are only able to get 1 player under 30?

That has nothing to do with Leinster......

aloooof

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Munster have the best young 9 in Ireland, but you have a thread here crying about a exNZ international not let sign another contract. A player no other club in the World has offered a contract to.

Munster have all the ingredients to be a top club in Europe....Leinster is not holding them back, the IRFU are not holding them back.....so they need to look at themselves

Also Ulster have had huge money invested in them, Leinster would love a stadium like Ravenhill....again blowing huge amount of money on imports who grab the cash and leave....why not invest in young player? when Humphreys was running the show he was down in every Ulster county trying to raise the profile, he was down in Cavan once doing a promo. That has all stopped now......

Can you point me to that thread? Cos I haven't come across it here.

aloooof

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Instead of pointing at Leinster and crying would people not look at what is going on in their own province???

Did they all of a sudden shut down every school and academy in Ireland outside of Leinster?

Or is it just a pile of excuses?

It's only a pile of excuses if you overlook resources, number of development officers, schools, bigger population etc. etc. Otherwise it's "reasons".

Look, ultimately it's to the betterment of Irish rugby if each of the provinces are producing their own homegrown players. But the reality is they don't have a level playing field as compared Leinster (for various reasons). And that's fine; they need get more creative to bridge that gap.

I thought this was an interesting KPI from the NZ annual reports, and would go some way towards improving underage players in Ireland:

... increase the numbers of underage coaches so that there are max 12 players per coach.

I can't say I've any idea what that figure is in Ireland, but I'd be interested to hear.

mfceiling wrote: »

It hasn't stopped. Ulster are still very active in promoting the game in Cavan, Monaghan and Donegal. It's a very hard sell when GAA takes first precedent and that in some quarters rugby is still seen as "Protestant" game.

Maybe 10-15 years ago, but unless you are in the real bandit country nobody would call rugby a protestant game.....

Yes GAA is strong but a young player been offered the option of a couple of 100k a year over playing for free normally wins the way of rugby

awec wrote: »

No they don't.

What don't they have?

mfceiling

Shefwedfan wrote: »

when Humphreys was running the show he was down in every Ulster county trying to raise the profile, he was down in Cavan once doing a promo. That has all stopped now......

It hasn't stopped. Ulster are still very active in promoting the game in Cavan, Monaghan and Donegal. It's a very hard sell when GAA takes first precedent and that in some quarters rugby is still seen as "Protestant" game.

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Munster have the best young 9 in Ireland, but you have a thread here crying about a exNZ international not let sign another contract. A player no other club in the World has offered a contract to.

Munster have all the ingredients to be a top club in Europe....Leinster is not holding them back, the IRFU are not holding them back.....so they need to look at themselves

No they don't. Munster have all the ingredients to make a good go of it if they are lucky with injuries, and lucky with their draws, but they're a million miles from the likes of Leinster and Saracens (before this week). They are still reliant on the emotional plucky underdog thing, and they're still somewhat dining out on past glories.

Also Ulster have had huge money invested in them, Leinster would love a stadium like Ravenhill....again blowing huge amount of money on imports who grab the cash and leave....why not invest in young player? when Humphreys was running the show he was down in every Ulster county trying to raise the profile, he was down in Cavan once doing a promo. That has all stopped now......

What young player? Do you think that's really how it works? It wouldn't matter how much money Ulster invested in their young players if the raw materials aren't there. Not all the provinces are working off the same base line here, the money just does not exist. Ulster do not have a plethora of private schools churning out almost-professional athletes for example.

awec wrote: »

I really do think pro rugby is at a bit of a cliff edge. The big sides are starting to realise how they can make the most of their advantages. We are edging closer to English football, where we'll see the same few teams dominate year after year.

Teams like Munster winning european trophies are going to be incredibly rare events. Every now and again they'll build a special team and might do the business, but building sides that consistently win and dominate for years on end, forget about it, it won't happen, there just isn't the raw materials nor the money.

Munster have the best young 9 in Ireland, but you have a thread here crying about a exNZ international not let sign another contract. A player no other club in the World has offered a contract to.

Munster have all the ingredients to be a top club in Europe....Leinster is not holding them back, the IRFU are not holding them back.....so they need to look at themselves

Also Ulster have had huge money invested in them, Leinster would love a stadium like Ravenhill....again blowing huge amount of money on imports who grab the cash and leave....why not invest in young player? when Humphreys was running the show he was down in every Ulster county trying to raise the profile, he was down in Cavan once doing a promo. That has all stopped now......

I really do think pro rugby is at a bit of a cliff edge. The big sides are starting to realise how they can make the most of their advantages. We are edging closer to English football, where we'll see the same few teams dominate year after year.

Teams like Munster winning european trophies are going to be incredibly rare events. Every now and again they'll get lucky and build a special team and might do the business, but building sides that consistently win and dominate for years on end, forget about it, it won't happen, there just isn't the raw materials nor the money.

I do think the IRFU have realised that from an economic point of view, and a rugby one, it makes sense for them to really focus on one team as an elite side, with the others being somewhat supplementary.

Instead of pointing at Leinster and crying would people not look at what is going on in their own province???

Did they all of a sudden shut down every school and academy in Ireland outside of Leinster?

Or is it just a pile of excuses?

sydthebeat wrote: »

thats a fair point about the player welfare.. i suppose it is just more in your face in regards to the irish first teamers and the lack of provincial games they play. for example i cant see the IRFU having much influence in ulster in regards to the amount of games mcclousky, marshall, gilroy etc play.

in regard to leinster and their foreign players... well leinster have significantly less NIQs than other provinces, so its doesnt make any sense to try to argue that by having more players on CC leinster has more money to entice NIQ players. nucifora has to sign off on every singing anyway.
Tomane is actually a pretty poor example of how cc savings should be spent.
Ulster have carter and coetzee and i would be very surprises they are on less of a wedge than tomane.

its not a level playing field because leinster develop such high quality players. simple as. As long as leinster are feeding the provinces players in lieu of the provinces developing their won, it will remain to be an unequal playing field.

So forever then.

sydthebeat wrote: »

so what are you suggesting should be done to improve ulster?

i already posted earlier showing that you have about 50% of your squad built up on foreign and leinster born players.

do you think you should have MORE leinster developed players brought up to bolster your squad?
do you think you should have more centrally contracted players assigned to ulster so that ulster have more money to go out and buy MORE foreign based players?

I don't care about this, honestly. The make up of the team is of little consequence to me, winning a trophy with half the team not being from Ulster doesn't diminish anything in the slightest.

In reality, the "rules" are going to have to be relaxed for the other three provinces a bit more than they currently are, if the IRFU are serious about building teams that can actually compete.

The way things are today, if Leinster have their house in order they are going to be miles ahead. It wouldn't matter in that scenario if Ulster or Munster or Connacht had everything perfect, they wouldn't keep up. In the entire league, there is no better resourced, better funded team than Leinster, so in reality, every other team is dependent on Leinster having a quiet year if they realistically want to win anything. This might even be true at a worldwide level, it's hard to think of a team that enjoys the benefits that Leinster enjoy.

I'd love the IRFU to be more open about how much money they are pumping in to Leinster vs Ulster vs Munster vs Connacht, and this includes the value of the central contracts for all Ireland players. I would like to know what the real plan of the union is, do they want to build one "super province" and three lesser ones that will have a good year now and again, or do they really want 4 sides that are seen as equals so much as they can really be seen as equals? Just how level is the playing field?

But really, I just want us to stop harping on about how great the system is for Irish Rugby. It's great for Ireland, it's great for Leinster, but the other teams are being left behind somewhat, and the cynic in me believes that's by design.

Zzippy wrote: »

That's nothing to do with central contracts, though. IRFU can call the shots over player welfare in the absence of central contracts, as all contracts are funded through IRFU sources and paid through branches of the IRFU. Central contracts are just a topup for regular international players to replace game fees, and serve to artificially augment the playing budgets of those provinces luckjy enough to have players selected for CCs. Leinster, for example, only have to pay a portion of the going rate for players like Kearney, Sexton, etc, and therefore can direct savings into paying other players like Joe Tomane. The overall quality of their squad is boosted by CCs. It's not exactly a level playing field, within Ireland or without. It's also a very opaque system, with the lack of transparency in IRFU accounts and selection criteria for CCs not helping.

thats a fair point about the player welfare.. i suppose it is just more in your face in regards to the irish first teamers and the lack of provincial games they play. for example i cant see the IRFU having much influence in ulster in regards to the amount of games mcclousky, marshall, gilroy etc play.

in regard to leinster and their foreign players... well leinster have significantly less NIQs than other provinces, so its doesnt make any sense to try to argue that by having more players on CC leinster has more money to entice NIQ players. nucifora has to sign off on every singing anyway.
Tomane is actually a pretty poor example of how cc savings should be spent.
Ulster have carter and coetzee and i would be very surprises they are on less of a wedge than tomane.

its not a level playing field because leinster develop such high quality players. simple as. As long as leinster are feeding the provinces players in lieu of the provinces developing their won, it will remain to be an unequal playing field.

awec wrote: »

I'm not assigning blame. Yes, Ulster are crap, yes Ulster should have been better, that's not the point.

But it's hard to argue that the system is serving Ulster well right now. Munster haven't won a raffle since 2011, it's hard to argue it's doing them much good either. Connacht won a league in 2016 and haven't come within a sniff of anything serious since, so it's hard to argue that it's doing them much good.

It gets frustrating after a while to hear Leinster fans go on about how great the setup is, while they're the ones best placed to take advantage of the system and are therefore winning all round them. I couldn't give two fcuks about Leinster winning trophies, I get no more satisfaction seeing Leinster win something than I would get watching Saracens win something, or Glasgow win something. It's not Ulster, so I don't care. I don't care that Irish teams have won 11 of the Pro14/Celtic trophies, the only number I care about is that Ulster have only won 2.

The reality is, no other province has been able to build a serious team for almost a decade. A few close calls here and there, a league trophy in a post world cup year, but nothing anywhere close to Leinster.

But the IRFU are happy enough I'm sure. Ireland are doing well in the six nations and one province is bringing in some cash from the club game. I just wish we'd stop pretending that it's working everywhere. It's not.

so what are you suggesting should be done to improve ulster?

i already posted earlier showing that you have about 50% of your squad built up on foreign and leinster born players.

do you think you should have MORE leinster developed players brought up to bolster your squad?
do you think you should have more centrally contracted players assigned to ulster so that ulster have more money to go out and buy MORE foreign based players?

Zzippy

sydthebeat wrote: »

central contracts are simply the irish version of what happens in most top tier rugby countries.

English RFU pay each club a figure for releasing the players to england training, and RFU pay each player per test game played as well.

However in doing so, RFU do not have control over player welfare in the clubs.

thats the USP we have with central contracts... much to the pain of fans who only see their top players in their club colors in europe of the business end of the Pro 14.

That said, irish silverware in the Pro 14 and Europe is testimony that the system works.
The standard of irish player playing abroad is also testimony that the system works in keep our best players at home, and under the welfare of the IRFU.

That's nothing to do with central contracts, though. IRFU can call the shots over player welfare in the absence of central contracts, as all contracts are funded through IRFU sources and paid through branches of the IRFU. Central contracts are just a topup for regular international players to replace game fees, and serve to artificially augment the playing budgets of those provinces luckjy enough to have players selected for CCs. Leinster, for example, only have to pay a portion of the going rate for players like Kearney, Sexton, etc, and therefore can direct savings into paying other players like Joe Tomane. The overall quality of their squad is boosted by CCs. It's not exactly a level playing field, within Ireland or without. It's also a very opaque system, with the lack of transparency in IRFU accounts and selection criteria for CCs not helping.

Shefwedfan wrote: »

First Kearney, now McFadden....you would think you have something against Leinster players?

The biggest flaw in the system at the moment is apart from Leinster the provinces are not producing enough players.

Ulster had no home players in the pack the other day. Munster as pointed out on Molecast have a number of players in Ireland squad but in terms of Munster grown they have very few, and only one of those is under 30....

Instead of crying about central contracts, the big talking point should be how to get more players from the academies in all 4 provinces into the senior side and into the Ireland team.......

Well some of those reasons are self evident. One of them is the movement thing we are always going to have more Leinster lads, and more schools. So this is going to happen. And yeah while im pro movement, i can imagine many not liking say the day a ful 15 of Munster is made up of non Munster lads. The other thing is the one you cry about, the ringfencing of talent through cc, the one you say doesn't exist. Munster have some serious talent coming through, and the IRFU let one of the most talented Munster backs leave so they could give a central contract to Devin Toner or Jack McGrath. Genius really.

I agree with awec. Its not necessarily working for all.

The thing with somebody like McFadden is at the crux of it all tho. Again he's a great pro. But he's had his time, yet we were seeing squads with him sleected ahead of Conway for example. Some of it is just bonkers. we can't get young players playing if lads with 50 or 60 caps are standing in their way. this wasn't a problem before as we had natural injuries and we just didn't have quality that extended outside of 16-22 players. this is largely obsolete. I don't see how somebody like O'Sullivan, a super talent, develops if he can't get past CJ Stander. And i don't agree with the trope..if he's good enough he'll make it. As i said last week i don't think the 2011 Murray selection over Stringer happens in this rarefied air and moneyed environment. It makes it far more difficult.

I think its evident now, the system is perfect for producing results at Europe now. Look at the English lads filtering back into their clubs, some of them are going into seriously diluted teams in terms of comparison to England. We have a smaller pool but a tighter net of quality. So the theory around Ireland not having the advantages around WC's with the central system is i think bearing out.

Maybe one day club rugby will be more important than international, and we'll be set!

sydthebeat wrote: »

is it leinsters or the IRFUs fault ulster have been so crap in the league???

i think the vast majority of the blame lies with the internal structures of ulster.. which thankfully are showing signs of improving.

but anyway, im talking about irish rugby here... not individual provinces.

only one team can win the league per year...

and since its inception (2000) there has been 11 irish winners ... compared to 6 welsh and 1 scot.
there has also been 11 irish runners ups in the same time

so 11 winners and 11 runners up in the 19 years of celtic league definitely does not show that the provinces have struggled....

and if you want to restrict it to the last decade, we have had irish teams either win or runner up 12 times.

just because these are mainly leinster or munster is not an argument against central contracts.

I'm not assigning blame. Yes, Ulster are crap, yes Ulster should have been better, that's not the point.

But it's hard to argue that the system is serving Ulster well right now. Munster haven't won a raffle since 2011, it's hard to argue it's doing them much good either. Connacht won a league in 2016 and haven't come within a sniff of anything serious since, so it's hard to argue that it's doing them much good.

It gets frustrating after a while to hear Leinster fans go on about how great the setup is, while they're the ones best placed to take advantage of the system and are therefore winning all round them. I couldn't give two fcuks about Leinster winning trophies, I get no more satisfaction seeing Leinster win something than I would get watching Saracens win something, or Glasgow win something. It's not Ulster, so I don't care. I don't care that Irish teams have won 11 of the Pro14/Celtic trophies, the only number I care about is that Ulster have only won 1.

The reality is, no other province has been able to build a serious team for almost a decade. A few close calls here and there, a league trophy in a post world cup year, but nothing anywhere close to Leinster.

But the IRFU are happy enough I'm sure. Ireland are doing well in the six nations and one province is bringing in some cash from the club game. I just wish we'd stop pretending that it's working everywhere. It's not.

aloooof

awec wrote: »

Not sure this really stands up any more. It shows that it works for one province out of four. Aside from one league win by Connacht in the year after the world cup, the other provinces have struggled for almost a decade.

Is this not pretty comparable to the situation in England? For Leinster, read Saracens and for Exeter read Munster. (With the added benefit of Munster performing better in Europe than Exeter).

awec wrote: »

Not sure this really stands up any more. It shows that it works for one province out of four. Aside from one league win by Connacht in the year after the world cup, the other provinces have struggled for almost a decade.

is it leinsters or the IRFUs fault ulster have been so crap in the league???

i think the vast majority of the blame lies with the internal structures of ulster.. which thankfully are showing signs of improving.

but anyway, im talking about irish rugby here... not individual provinces.

only one team can win the league per year...

and since its inception (2000) there has been 11 irish winners ... compared to 6 welsh and 1 scot.
there has also been 11 irish runners ups in the same time

so 11 winners and 11 runners up in the 19 years of celtic league definitely does not show that the provinces have struggled....

and if you want to restrict it to the last decade, we have had irish teams either win or runner up 12 times.

just because these are mainly leinster or munster is not an argument against central contracts.

sydthebeat wrote: »

central contracts are simply the irish version of what happens in most top tier rugby countries.

English RFU pay each club a figure for releasing the players to england training, and RFU pay each player per test game played as well.

However in doing so, RFU do not have control over player welfare in the clubs.

thats the USP we have with central contracts... much to the pain of fans who only see their top players in their club colors in europe of the business end of the Pro 14.

That said, irish silverware in the Pro 14 and Europe is testimony that the system works.
The standard of irish player playing abroad is also testimony that the system works in keep our best players at home, and under the welfare of the IRFU.

Not sure this really stands up any more. It shows that it works for one province out of four. Aside from one league win by Connacht in the year after the world cup, the other provinces have struggled for almost a decade.

The central contract system has worked for Ireland by and large, but this is not surprising when the team is loaded with players from the one province that has been able to handle "the system" well.

I think the system, such as it is today, suits the IRFU perfectly, as they can have a strong national team, one incredibly strong province to fund and then three decent provinces who will have good years now and again.

central contracts are simply the irish version of what happens in most top tier rugby countries.

English RFU pay each club a figure for releasing the players to england training, and RFU pay each player per test game played as well.

However in doing so, RFU do not have control over player welfare in the clubs.

thats the USP we have with central contracts... much to the pain of fans who only see their top players in their club colors in europe of the business end of the Pro 14.

That said, irish silverware in the Pro 14 and Europe is testimony that the system works.
The standard of irish player playing abroad is also testimony that the system works in keep our best players at home, and under the welfare of the IRFU.

Niallof9 wrote: »

they should be cast aside if their time is up. Loyalty for the sake of it shouldn't be the IRFU's plan. If Fergus McFadden can't get back in, nobody owes him anything.

the latter point this is already happening though....

here's a good article praising the system, while merely ending up pointing out its massive flaws -

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/the-eight-players-left-on-irish-rugbys-central-contract-hit-list-and-how-the-irfu-plan-to-pay-for-them/

First Kearney, now McFadden....you would think you have something against Leinster players?

The biggest flaw in the system at the moment is apart from Leinster the provinces are not producing enough players.

Ulster had no home players in the pack the other day. Munster as pointed out on Molecast have a number of players in Ireland squad but in terms of Munster grown they have very few, and only one of those is under 30....

Instead of crying about central contracts, the big talking point should be how to get more players from the academies in all 4 provinces into the senior side and into the Ireland team.......

A good few of them are up this month i think. Will be interesting to see what happens. I'm for scrapping them. Not needed in a post made up/hyped "golden generation". Better using the resources to spread it around. The threat of losing these guys just isn't there. the tax thing is still a big draw as well.

If they are to be persisted with well then J Ryan, Carbery, Larmour, Stockdale, Porter, Leavy and VDF deserve them.

salmocab

If poor Dan Leavy had been on a central contract under those conditions he’d be down a couple of hundred grand, I could see players lining up for it.

Podge_irl

Whether you call them a central contract or not, you need to pay more to keep the better players and they won't accept an annual incentive. Sexton was going to be the highest paid Irish player whether he was on a Leinster contract, a central contract or playing abroad and he was not going to sign essentially a one year contract either.

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Central contracts should an annual incentive based reward for getting selected for the national team. Do well, get picked, get more money. Make them tiered, to encourage progression. Training squad, to tournament squad to match 23 to starter etc. A tool to recognise and reward players in form, and not be a potential albatross around a coaches neck when a CC'd player is performing poorly relative.

exactly. well put.

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Some times I do wonder what we will see on this forum next

Do you know the amount of training etc player go through to get to the peak? to be the best. Then you just want to cast them aside or tell them to move province???

Also yes you would see inferior players getting a central contract because they would be off the province books. So you could have Carbery at Munster, the starting Ireland 10, one of the best player in Ireland but not on central contract because Munster have run out. But Burns in Ulster who is not even in Ireland squad on a central contract....

And your answer is to tell them to f**k off to France or England if they complain?

they should be cast aside if their time is up. Loyalty for the sake of it shouldn't be the IRFU's plan. If Fergus McFadden can't get back in, nobody owes him anything.

the latter point this is already happening though....

here's a good article praising the system, while merely ending up pointing out its massive flaws -

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/the-eight-players-left-on-irish-rugbys-central-contract-hit-list-and-how-the-irfu-plan-to-pay-for-them/

AbusesToilets

Central contracts should an annual incentive based reward for getting selected for the national team. Do well, get picked, get more money. Make them tiered, to encourage progression. Training squad, to tournament squad to match 23 to starter etc. A tool to recognise and reward players in form, and not be a potential albatross around a coaches neck when a CC'd player is performing poorly relative.