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WHS - Slopes

gypsy79

Anyone have any idea of what the slope will be on their course

Can see some of the more expensive courses not be very happy with the value they receive

Castleknock is one that springs to mind immediately. Definitely at the more expensive end for opens yet pretty straight forward

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hurleronditch

spacecoyote wrote: »

I suppose as an extension of that point, might you argue that everyone should have their start index re-calibrated at the beginning of the changover relative to their home clubs ratings?

So assuming that the new system is introduced on 1/11/2020, if Mr Ballybunion has a handicap of 8 on the 31/10/2020, should they then have a starting handicap index of 6.9 or whatever the number works out at?

That makes no sense. What happens currently if Mr Ballybunion rocks up to play an interclub match against an 8 from Slievenamon? They play a scratch match. That concept doesn’t change from currently. Your index is your underlying “handicap” that travels with you. Once you get to the course and see the slope you then calculate what your playing handicap is for that day

Seve OB

prawnsambo wrote: »

Of course you can. I've done it myself. I've played in opens where the women play off reds and men off whites and the overall prizes go to the best score regardless. Competition software that I've used allows for this too.

maybe i should have just said its wrong

prawnsambo

Seve OB wrote: »

disagree with you there
you can't play the same competition from different tees

Of course you can. I've done it myself. I've played in opens where the women play off reds and men off whites and the overall prizes go to the best score regardless. Competition software that I've used allows for this too.

Seve OB

prawnsambo wrote: »

In theory you should just be playing the competition and choosing which tees on entry. Everything the same after that. But it really depends on the course and all its tee boxes being rated for both sexes. I wonder will that actually be done.

disagree with you there
you can't play the same competition from different tees

Russman

hurleronditch wrote: »

Nope, your underlying index is 8, so if you went to a course that is exactly average - 113, you would get 8 shots. If you played off the blues in BB you would get 10 say, but if you pitched up in a flat field somewhere like Slievenamon you would possibly only get 6. This is why the difference between handicap and index is important.

If player A played 20 rounds in a year in ballybunion all at exactly 8 over par, their index would be likely far lower than 8, say 5 (I can do the suns later) as BB is harder than your average course.

If player B is a Royal Slievenamon member and plays 20 rounds 8 over, they would likely have an index somewhere around 11 or so.

That’s because the slope rating either discounts or increases the value of the round you shoot to balance the difficulty of the course.

It’s the same concept as standard scratch really, via a different mathematical route. If BB off the blue tees is par 72 but SSS of 74, this broadly means that par for an 8 handicapper is effectively 10 over, not 8.

Thanks for that.

So, let’s say I’m your 8 handicapper, am I right to say that when the new system comes in, my base index could well end up being maybe anything from 6 to 10, depending on how my home course gets rated ?
I had assumed our current CONGU handicaps would become our “opening” index if you know what I mean. Or that the opening index would be the 96% of the best 8 out of last 20. It does make sense to factor in the difficulty of the course when coming up with the opening index though if that’s the case.

I know a few guys who left our club in recent years and are now a few shots lower in their new course(s) - I guess this is doing all that work in one fell swoop, sort of !

So, effectively we’ll be taking our current CONGU handicap and using the course ratings and the formula to work backwards to come up with an index that gives us our current CONGU handicap ?

prawnsambo

Seve OB wrote: »

but they would be allowed.

red comp
green comp
white comp
blue comp

enter whichever one you want

of course i was always thinking you can still have a mens comp and a ladies comp, but you have a good idea there with the divisional prizes

In theory you should just be playing the competition and choosing which tees on entry. Everything the same after that. But it really depends on the course and all its tee boxes being rated for both sexes. I wonder will that actually be done.

Seve OB

blue note wrote: »

Not playing mens and womens comps at the same time is a particular bugbear of mine. Most clubs have mens comps on Sunday mornings which is extremely unfair on the women who are now generally paying the same fees. I can understand having separate comps, but play them together for God's sake. It would be better still to have an overall prize like you'd have the divisional ones, but I know that would probably not be allowed because of the different tees.

but they would be allowed.

red comp
green comp
white comp
blue comp

enter whichever one you want

of course i was always thinking you can still have a mens comp and a ladies comp, but you have a good idea there with the divisional prizes

blue note

Not playing mens and womens comps at the same time is a particular bugbear of mine. Most clubs have mens comps on Sunday mornings which is extremely unfair on the women who are now generally paying the same fees. I can understand having separate comps, but play them together for God's sake. It would be better still to have an overall prize like you'd have the divisional ones, but I know that would probably not be allowed because of the different tees.

Seve OB

prawnsambo wrote: »

Just one other thing to note. It's envisaged that every tee on every hole will be rated for men and women golfers. Which means that both sexes can play off any set of tees and have their handicap index calculated specifically for those tees. No more men's and lady's tees, just set up a competition and which tees to play from and either sex can play from whichever suits them at the time.

yes this is the way it should be. but will it happen? i doubt it.

would make so much sense though. loads of aul lads in my club, would be ideal for them to play the red competition as im sure some of the ladies would equally like to play the green or blue comps.

with handicaps, and especially the new system with slopes etc, there really is no reason why men and women can't compete against each other

spacecoyote

Russman wrote: »

I'm confused about this. I don't have any knowledge of the system so I'm not disagreeing with you, but, if your index is, in fact 8, while being a member of a Ballybunion and playing all your golf there, wouldn't that mean that it was calculated based off you playing a slope of 125-130, so you'd usually be 8 on that course ? but you might be off 6 somewhere else ?
Just genuinely curious.

I suppose as an extension of that point, might you argue that everyone should have their start index re-calibrated at the beginning of the changover relative to their home clubs ratings?

So assuming that the new system is introduced on 1/11/2020, if Mr Ballybunion has a handicap of 8 on the 31/10/2020, should they then have a starting handicap index of 6.9 or whatever the number works out at?

hurleronditch

Russman wrote: »

I'm confused about this. I don't have any knowledge of the system so I'm not disagreeing with you, but, if your index is, in fact 8, while being a member of a Ballybunion and playing all your golf there, wouldn't that mean that it was calculated based off you playing a slope of 125-130, so you'd usually be 8 on that course ? but you might be off 6 somewhere else ?
Just genuinely curious.

Nope, your underlying index is 8, so if you went to a course that is exactly average - 113, you would get 8 shots. If you played off the blues in BB you would get 10 say, but if you pitched up in a flat field somewhere like Slievenamon you would possibly only get 6. This is why the difference between handicap and index is important.

If player A played 20 rounds in a year in ballybunion all at exactly 8 over par, their index would be likely far lower than 8, say 5 (I can do the suns later) as BB is harder than your average course.

If player B is a Royal Slievenamon member and plays 20 rounds 8 over, they would likely have an index somewhere around 11 or so.

That’s because the slope rating either discounts or increases the value of the round you shoot to balance the difficulty of the course.

It’s the same concept as standard scratch really, via a different mathematical route. If BB off the blue tees is par 72 but SSS of 74, this broadly means that par for an 8 handicapper is effectively 10 over, not 8.

prawnsambo

Russman wrote: »

I'm confused about this. I don't have any knowledge of the system so I'm not disagreeing with you, but, if your index is, in fact 8, while being a member of a Ballybunion and playing all your golf there, wouldn't that mean that it was calculated based off you playing a slope of 125-130, so you'd usually be 8 on that course ? but you might be off 6 somewhere else ?
Just genuinely curious.

Yeah, that sounds like what it should be. Although slope ratiings can range between 55 and 152 I think.

Russman

hurleronditch wrote: »

On the overall mechanism - I’ve spent the last 3 years playing in the US and at first I found it immensely confusing, but it is an excellent system. The key change will be as a poster highlighted below, your index is now the key number. That is your underlying “handicap” in old money that is comparable against the next fella.your handicap is calculated fresh for every round. If you were a member somewhere like Ballybunion, you could be an 8.0 index, but if you only ever played at BallyB, you’d never actually play off of that, the slope will be at least 125-130 so you’ll always be getting more like 10 shots

I'm confused about this. I don't have any knowledge of the system so I'm not disagreeing with you, but, if your index is, in fact 8, while being a member of a Ballybunion and playing all your golf there, wouldn't that mean that it was calculated based off you playing a slope of 125-130, so you'd usually be 8 on that course ? but you might be off 6 somewhere else ?
Just genuinely curious.

mike12

billy3sheets wrote: »

From reading a bit about Stroke Index, it seems that it's intended for 2 distinct purposes:
designate the difficulty of holes v par for most (bogey?) golfers

award strokes in a matchplay according to handicap differential

The 2 would seem to conflict. For the 2nd purpose, there are a bunch of constraints, such as:
odd SI numbers one 9 and even the other 9

not having low SI numbers as the first or last hole

I had always thought about them more for the diffculty rating. I also thought they had to be agreed with or calculated by the GUI.

U will see a lot of courses with a match play index which differs from a regular one.
If index 1,2,3 are 16,17,18 the gui wont let u do that.

billy3sheets

From reading a bit about Stroke Index, it seems that it's intended for 2 distinct purposes:

designate the difficulty of holes v par for most (bogey?) golfers
award strokes in a matchplay according to handicap differential

The 2 would seem to conflict. For the 2nd purpose, there are a bunch of constraints, such as:

odd SI numbers one 9 and even the other 9
not having low SI numbers as the first or last hole

I had always thought about them more for the diffculty rating. I also thought they had to be agreed with or calculated by the GUI.

prawnsambo

spacecoyote wrote: »

Courses should be periodically reviewing & changing their indices on holes anyway.

I'm pretty sure its done annually in my place. Usually on a couple of holes actually change.

Our index 2 & 4 have flipped twice since I joined and, rather strangely, our index 13 & 17 have flipped at some point if I remember correctly

A lot of courses don't do it because of cost. Easy enough change the scorecard when it's due a new print run, but course signage should also be changed and that can cost a good bit depending on how elaborate the signs are.

spacecoyote

Courses should be periodically reviewing & changing their indices on holes anyway.

I'm pretty sure its done annually in my place. Usually on a couple of holes actually change.

Our index 2 & 4 have flipped twice since I joined and, rather strangely, our index 13 & 17 have flipped at some point if I remember correctly

prawnsambo

billy3sheets wrote: »

And isn't there a potential conflict also with hole indices?
For example, Index 1 might not turn out to have the highest slope rating.

To be fair, I'm not sure that hole indices are that accurate anyway. If you look back at scores over a year (assuming you've access to the data), you'll probably find that the hardest holes often aren't the lowest index ones. Our club published the previous year's data in the calendar and although index 1 played as index 1, index 2 was 3rd, index 3 was 2nd, index 4 was 5th etc. Only five holes played to their index. I'm sure if I looked back over a few years I'd probably find them different again.

Having said that, I'm pretty sure that the indexes are based on much the same criteria as the slope rating system; how the hole plays for the average bogey golfer. If you look at your high index holes and think about how it would play for someone who can drive the ball 200 yards max, and whether they would reasonably expect to get a GIR on it, you'd probably find that they align pretty well.

hurleronditch

billy3sheets wrote: »

And isn't there a potential conflict also with hole indices?
For example, Index 1 might not turn out to have the highest slope rating.

But you will never know this, as the most they will publish is the front and back 9s (US Golf are big on pushing the “play 9, post 9” message, so that even if you can only grab 9 after work in the summer, it all counts for index purposes.

What it might do is spark the club committee to revise their index. So if your current index 1 is actually the 3rd hardest hole they might revise that.

On the overall mechanism - I’ve spent the last 3 years playing in the US and at first I found it immensely confusing, but it is an excellent system. The key change will be as a poster highlighted below, your index is now the key number. That is your underlying “handicap” in old money that is comparable against the next fella.your handicap is calculated fresh for every round. If you were a member somewhere like Ballybunion, you could be an 8.0 index, but if you only ever played at BallyB, you’d never actually play off of that, the slope will be at least 125-130 so you’ll always be getting more like 10 shots

billy3sheets

billy3sheets wrote: »

From what I can see, each hole is assessed independently and so have an individual rating for each tee although this would not be published. The individual holes would then be aggregated into an overall course rating which would be published. Individual hole ratings would be interesting to see too.

And isn't there a potential conflict also with hole indices?
For example, Index 1 might not turn out to have the highest slope rating.

prawnsambo

Just one other thing to note. It's envisaged that every tee on every hole will be rated for men and women golfers. Which means that both sexes can play off any set of tees and have their handicap index calculated specifically for those tees. No more men's and lady's tees, just set up a competition and which tees to play from and either sex can play from whichever suits them at the time.

prawnsambo

Snotty wrote: »

Seriously getting confused now.
So say I am a current 10 handicap member of Mount Juliet where the slope is (Blue/White) - 148 / 136
I'm not going to do the maths, but does that mean that after the change I'll be (as an example) a 11 of the whites and 12 off the blues?

Well first of all your handicap index (new name for handicap) will probably change anyway. This will be calculated on a rolling basis, but also as an average depending on the number of 'qualifying' rounds played. So 96% of average of best 3 from 9, best 5 from 15 and best 8 from 20 - called 'Equitable Gross Score. And then that is entered into the equation I gave before: (EGS - CR) * 113 / SR. That's your Handicap Index.

But when you're playing a different course (either another course or another set of tees), your Handicap Index is adjusted for that set of tees using the following forumula (I left the CR-Par bit out by mistake in a previous post): (HI * SR) / 113 + (CR - Par).

It sounds hellishly complicated, but the computer will do all that work for you and there will also be tables available to check what your HI would be on any given course/set of tees.

But to take your example, I'd need to know the course rating (CR) for both sets of tees. The CR is the scratch golfer's level of difficulty and is pure strokes like SSS. For the sake of simplicity, I'll use the SSS for those tees (73 / 72), Par is 72. The second thing to note is that if you're a member, your handicap index has already been calculated on a rolling basis. Assuming you've been playing off the whites and you're just moving to the greens (Mt. Juliet don't give a SR for the blue tees), then the calculation is: (10 * 136) / 113 + (72-72) = 12.03

Hope that helps.

spacecoyote

We were given 9-hole slope ratings for each of our 9s too

prawnsambo

billy3sheets wrote: »

From what I can see, each hole is assessed independently and so have an individual rating for each tee although this would not be published. The individual holes would then be aggregated into an overall course rating which would be published. Individual hole ratigns would be interesting to see too. A course could have 9 very hard rated and 9 very easy rated averaging out to a 113 or could have 18 average rated averaging out to a 113.

Would there be seperate front-9 and back-9 ratings?

Probably yes. A bit like SSS, you can request a rating for individual nine hole layouts so that you can run qualifying competitions on them. Our course was SSS rated for the front nine as we hold nine hole competitions in the summer time on weekday evenings. Whether they would rate them like this automatically or on request, I don't know, but I suspect (given what you're saying above about individual hole ratings) that they would.

downthemiddle

Golfgraffix wrote: »

Curious, Do you know how they tested the trueness ?

Sorry, no idea.

billy3sheets

From what I can see, each hole is assessed independently and so have an individual rating for each tee although this would not be published. The individual holes would then be aggregated into an overall course rating which would be published. Individual hole ratigns would be interesting to see too. A course could have 9 very hard rated and 9 very easy rated averaging out to a 113 or could have 18 average rated averaging out to a 113.

Would there be seperate front-9 and back-9 ratings?

Golfgraffix

downthemiddle wrote: »

They also tested the quality and speed of the greens ( and were very complimentary about how true the greens were.

Curious, Do you know how they tested the trueness ?

charlieIRL

I have a card here from the Island in Donabate and the slope ratings are:
White 130
Green 129
Yellow 124
Red 121

Seve OB

Snotty wrote: »

Seriously getting confused now.
So say I am a current 10 handicap member of Mount Juliet where the slope is (Blue/White) - 148 / 136
I'm not going to do the maths, but does that mean that after the change I'll be (as an example) a 11 of the whites and 12 off the blues?

possibly yes

Snotty

Seriously getting confused now.
So say I am a current 10 handicap member of Mount Juliet where the slope is (Blue/White) - 148 / 136
I'm not going to do the maths, but does that mean that after the change I'll be (as an example) a 11 of the whites and 12 off the blues?