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Scottish independence

Faye McAleer

Would you be in support of a politico-economic union and formal international intergovernmental cooperation between the three Gaelic nations, (united) Ireland, (independent) Scotland and the Isle of Man similar to Benelux?

The Benelux cooperation has served as a model for the EU, and is basically an EU lite, comprising a customs union and a parliament as well as shared resources.

This could work between the three Gaelic nations and when we get reunification and the Scottish get independence, I think it is something good that should be created.

What do you think?

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[Deleted User]

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Yes. The people of Berwick will have their say in a hypothetical referendum after a discussion of the hypothesis on an Irish message board.

There is no talk almost anywhere about Berwick returning to Scotland. I fail to see how you managed to get yourself in an apoplectic twist given the nature of the discussion above.

We geddit, u no want Scotland indy!

Sheesh, I only asked if they’d get a say.

Why so touchy?

BonnieSituation

Aegir wrote: »

Sheesh, I only asked if they’d get a say.

Why so touchy?

Sure you did.:rolleyes:

Berwick has been "English" since the late 15th Century. There's not really much of a clamour anywhere for the status quo to change.

[Deleted User]

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Sure you did.:rolleyes:

Berwick has been "English" since the late 15th Century. There's not really much of a clamour anywhere for the status quo to change.

I know.

BonnieSituation

Aegir wrote: »

I know.

So that's that settled so; just like Berwick's status.

[Deleted User]

BonnieSituation wrote: »

So that's that settled so; just like Berwick's status.

I wasn't the one saying it should be changed:

BonnieSituation wrote: »

They should return it now so. Be much easier.

you then rather spectacularly threw a tantrum when i asked a simple question:

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Yes. The people of Berwick will have their say in a hypothetical referendum after a discussion of the hypothesis on an Irish message board.

There is no talk almost anywhere about Berwick returning to Scotland. I fail to see how you managed to get yourself in an apoplectic twist given the nature of the discussion above.

We geddit, u no want Scotland indy!

It seems Scottish nationalists, just like ardent Brexiteers, don't like being challenged on anything. The thing I find amusing, is that the arguments for Scottish independence seem to be no different to the arguments for Brexit, with anything negatove written off as "Project fear".

if you Scots want to leave, fine. That is your choice. Personally I think England and Scotland are better together and a hard border between the two would damage both countries, but I get it, you feel somehow your Scottish identity is undermined by being in the union.

BonnieSituation

Aegir wrote: »

I wasn't the one saying it should be changed:

you then rather spectacularly threw a tantrum when i asked a simple question:

It seems Scottish nationalists, just like ardent Brexiteers, don't like being challenged on anything. The thing I find amusing, is that the arguments for Scottish independence seem to be no different to the arguments for Brexit, with anything negatove written off as "Project fear".

if you Scots want to leave, fine. That is your choice. Personally I think England and Scotland are better together and a hard border between the two would damage both countries, but I get it, you feel somehow your Scottish identity is undermined by being in the union.

Yes. I threw a tantrum. That's exactly what it was.

I must stick emojis or :sar: tags on my obviously tongue-in-cheek statements going forward lest you end up confused.

What was the challenging you were doing old boy?

Also, "you Scots"? Jesus! Unfortunately as an Irishman living in Dublin it's unlikely that I'll have a choice in the matter.

"Personally [you] think England and Scotland are better together"; so again, you can have "feels" but heaven forbid anyone else being emotive on any topic ever again for fear of being cast aside as "Brexit-Like".

I find it flabbergasting that someone can come on here, on an Irish forum, and state that a Scot could "feel somehow [their] Scottish identity is undermined by being in the union." Are you for real? I mean, 1922 called... It would like a word with you.

Water John

Most posters here are Irish or of Irish connection. I just enquired about the issue of the Hadrian Wall line v's the actual boundary. Just an idiocyncracy like Strazbourg and many others around Europe. Not sure why you conclude that Scotland is better off being governed by London.

ArmaniJeanss

Deleted User wrote: »

It's now abundantly clear that the UK is solidly behind a Government of Brexit.

No revocation; no second referendum - just a get on with Brexit vote.

I suspect the chasm between the Tory's and Labour will grow once the absurdity of Labour's position becomes clearer in the minds of voters.

Great days for pro-Brexit supporters!

Whats your skin in the game?

You've said you are Irish, so being so gleefully and extremely pro-Tory is really unusual. Coz of history obv.
Also clearly the UK staying, either via Revoke or Ref2, would be the simplest and neatest solution purely from an Irish point of view, so it seems a strange angle for you to take.

You might be pro-Brexit because of a general 'want to see the EU crumble' libertarian attitude which would be fine. Or the old 'democracy must be respected' thing, but this doesn't really tally with say your opposition to SNP/Scottish independence?

It's confusing, and I should emphasize you are under no obligation to answer any of these questions.

[Deleted User]

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Whats your skin in the game?

You've said you are Irish, so being so gleefully and extremely pro-Tory is really unusual. Coz of history obv.
Also clearly the UK staying, either via Revoke or Ref2, would be the simplest and neatest solution purely from an Irish point of view, so it seems a strange angle for you to take.

You might be pro-Brexit because of a general 'want to see the EU crumble' libertarian attitude which would be fine. Or the old 'democracy must be respected' thing, but this doesn't really tally with say your opposition to SNP/Scottish independence?

It's confusing, and I should emphasize you are under no obligation to answer any of these questions.

Just because I'm Irish does not mean I cannot take a Eurosceptic position. There are many people in Ireland, admittedly small in number compared to the UK, who hold legitimate Eurosceptic perspectives.

Left-wing economics, particularly that espoused by the current Labour Party, I find thoroughly abhorrent. As a classical liberal-type of person, I could not possibly support the Labour Party. Whilst the Tory's are not perfect and are by no means entire subscribers to "classical liberal" values, they approximate far more in that direction and so have my support.

I'm not "against Scottish independence"; I don't particularly care. It's up to the Scots to decide. But what is obnoxious is the idea that Scotland can unilterally leave the Union. As a "Union", things must be decided by Westminster. That's the way it's structured. A referendum was held 5 years ago, and they voted to Remain. We have to respect that vote without foisting upon them a second vote.

Second, I object to the idea that "independence" would exist for Scotland. It will never make any sense to me why Scottish nationalists moan and groan about how "Westminster makes the decisions" for the Scottish people, then go on to argue how that power should be transferred from Westminster to Brussels.

In other words, if it's not independence when laws are taken from the UK, it surely cannot be independence when laws are taken from Brussels.

But I have no preference either way. I just don't believe that Scotland can determine Westminster policy. That's up to the Prime Minister of the day.

Furthermore, I'm not selfish either. I would rather a no deal Brexit, even if it were harmful to Ireland - not because I'm in favour of economic damage to Ireland, but because I think respecting democracy matters far, far more.

[Deleted User]

BonnieSituation wrote: »

YAlso, "you Scots"? Jesus! Unfortunately as an Irishman living in Dublin it's unlikely that I'll have a choice in the matter.

so you're not Scottish and not even living in Scotland, yet you are probably the poster who gets most animated about Scottish independence?

Odd.

BonnieSituation wrote: »

"Personally [you] think England and Scotland are better together"; so again, you can have "feels" but heaven forbid anyone else being emotive on any topic ever again for fear of being cast aside as "Brexit-Like".

huh?

I gave my opinion on the matter. A lot of the arguments are the same, are they not?

BonnieSituation wrote: »

I find it flabbergasting that someone can come on here, on an Irish forum, and state that a Scot could "feel somehow [their] Scottish identity is undermined by being in the union." Are you for real? I mean, 1922 called... It would like a word with you.

what in god's name are you on about? What has this being an Irish forum got to do with something that is going on in a foreign country?

BonnieSituation

Aegir wrote: »

so you're not Scottish and not even living in Scotland, yet you are probably the poster who gets most animated about Scottish independence?

Odd.

Are you suggesting that we don't have interests outside of our lane?

I guess it's best if you avoid this thread in that case.

I'm not a pilot but like to peruse the Aviation forum. Can I continue to do that?

huh?

I gave my opinion on the matter. A lot of the arguments are the same, are they not?

If they're the same, why such criticism? You're the one who compared it to Brexit and then you made a similar supposition that I called you on!

what in god's name are you on about? What has this being an Irish forum got to do with something that is going on in a foreign country?

I feel that if you don't get the allusion I was making with that comment then I guess we'll just leave it there.

Dytalus

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm not "against Scottish independence"; I don't particularly care. It's up to the Scots to decide. But what is obnoxious is the idea that Scotland can unilterally leave the Union. As a "Union", things must be decided by Westminster.

So...it's entirely up to the Scots, but it's also up to England, and Wales, and Northern Ireland too? And what if the Scots universally return SNP representatives and Westminster still says no referendum? How is that remotely fair, or right? Are they to be trapped in the Union at the whims of the English/Welsh/Northern Irish against their own wishes?

If the people of Scotland want independence badly enough to elect entirely pro-indyref representatives and Westminster still says "lolno", how do you think Scotland will react?

Deleted User wrote: »

A referendum was held 5 years ago, and they voted to Remain. We have to respect that vote without foisting upon them a second vote.

We should probably make divorce illegal then. And abortion. And never vote for another Dáil again.

I mean, we voted for all those things before. Unfair to have them foisted upon us again.

Deleted User wrote: »

Second, I object to the idea that "independence" would exist for Scotland. It will never make any sense to me why Scottish nationalists moan and groan about how "Westminster makes the decisions" for the Scottish people, then go on to argue how that power should be transferred from Westminster to Brussels.

In other words, if it's not independence when laws are taken from the UK, it surely cannot be independence when laws are taken from Brussels.

Both Unions are structured very differently, and the laws are made in very different ways. They are not remotely comparable. Due to the structure of the two Councils and the Commission (equal representation regardless of country size) Scotland would arguably have more control over laws made in Brussels than laws made in Westminster.

Deleted User wrote: »

But I have no preference either way. I just don't believe that Scotland can determine Westminster policy. That's up to the Prime Minister of the day.

And if the Scottish no longer want it that way? How would you reconcile that? A people who want independence can only gain it one of two ways - and if you deny them the democratic way....

Deleted User wrote: »

Furthermore, I'm not selfish either. I would rather a no deal Brexit, even if it were harmful to Ireland - not because I'm in favour of economic damage to Ireland, but because I think respecting democracy matters far, far more.

Is this the same democracy that the Leavers respected by breaking the law during the referendum, unlawfully proroguing Parliament, tried to cheat their way into No Deal (multiple times), and lying to people about what Brexit would mean?

That democracy?

EDIT:

Deleted User wrote: »

I believe almost all politicians are blatant liars, or are, at the very least, very economical with the truth.

I have "no issues with democracy being subvented by foreign money and illegal methods" according to what evidence? Otherwise, you may need to retract.

Regarding the illegal methods.

As for the foreign money and interference, the UK Government is withholding the report into that so we cannot see what's in it until after the election. But there's some indications that their social media campaigns had an effect.

[Deleted User]

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Are you suggesting that we don't have interests outside of our lane?

I guess it's best if you avoid this thread in that case.

I'm not a pilot but like to peruse the Aviation forum. Can I continue to do that?

when you say interests,, do you mean that you find something interesting, or do you mean that it is in Ireland's interests for Scotland to become independent? When you say "Unfortunately as an Irishman living in Dublin it's unlikely that I'll have a choice in the matter." it gives the impression that believe it is the latter.

In which case, why is it in Ireland's best interests what happens in a foreign country?

BonnieSituation wrote: »

If they're the same, why such criticism? You're the one who compared it to Brexit and then you made a similar supposition that I called you on!

taking back control seems to be the common theme of both, is it not?

BonnieSituation wrote: »

I feel that if you don't get the allusion I was making with that comment then I guess we'll just leave it there.

No, I really don't. it is 2019 and we are talking about Scotland becoming independent from the UK. What 1922 and Ireland has to do with it is somewhat baffling to be honest.

Please explain.

A Dub in Glasgo

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm not "against Scottish independence"; I don't particularly care. It's up to the Scots to decide. But what is obnoxious is the idea that Scotland can unilterally leave the Union. As a "Union", things must be decided by Westminster. That's the way it's structured. A referendum was held 5 years ago, and they voted to Remain. We have to respect that vote without foisting upon them a second vote.

Second, I object to the idea that "independence" would exist for Scotland. It will never make any sense to me why Scottish nationalists moan and groan about how "Westminster makes the decisions" for the Scottish people, then go on to argue how that power should be transferred from Westminster to Brussels.

What?- Scotland and England (inc Wales) created the United Kingdom by passing laws in their respective parliaments that combined the parliaments and that combined parliament is in London.

Why do you think Scotland should not be allowed to decide to dissolve this arrangement?

A Dub in Glasgo

Aegir wrote: »

Sheesh, I only asked if they’d get a say.

Why do you think they should get a say?

The people of North Berwick will get a say

BonnieSituation

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Why do you think they should get a say?

The people of North Berwick will get a say

Don't start him off again.

It's been quite an afternoon "having tantrums".

bob mcbob

Aegir wrote: »

do the people of Berwick not get a say in this?

A newspaper poll was run a couple of years ago in Newcastle. Of the respondents, 55% said they would prefer "to run away with the neighbour"

https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/thousands-call-north-england-become-9252787

While i do not for a minute believe it would happen, many of the comments are very interesting.

[Deleted User]

bob mcbob wrote: »

A newspaper poll was run a couple of years ago in Newcastle. Of the respondents, 55% said they would prefer "to run away with the neighbour"

https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/thousands-call-north-england-become-9252787

While i do not for a minute believe it would happen, many of the comments are very interesting.

Would that be in or out of the EU?

[Deleted User]

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Why do you think they should get a say?

The people of North Berwick will get a say

why do I think Berwick should be given a say in switching from England to Scotland?

that's a tough one :rolleyes:

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Don't start him off again.

It's been quite an afternoon "having tantrums".

when you get a minute, could you maybe answer the questions I posted?

bob mcbob

Aegir wrote: »

Would that be in or out of the EU?

From the article, some of the comments were

The deliberations in Westminster are becoming increasingly irrelevant to the north of England. The northern cities feel far greater affinity with their Scottish counterparts such as Glasgow and Edinburgh than with the ideologies of the London-centric south.

The needs and challenges of the north cannot be understood by the endless parade of old Etonions lining the frontbenches of the House of Commons.

The north of England should join the newly independent Scotland and regain control over its own destiny.

I live in Newcastle and feel we are far more connected and cared about by Scotland than by London.”

So three questions for you -
- Which part of the EU caused these feelings ?
- How will leaving the EU address them?
- If leaving the EU does not address them, who will the right wing press blame then?

[Deleted User]

bob mcbob wrote: »

From the article, some of the comments were

The deliberations in Westminster are becoming increasingly irrelevant to the north of England. The northern cities feel far greater affinity with their Scottish counterparts such as Glasgow and Edinburgh than with the ideologies of the London-centric south.

The needs and challenges of the north cannot be understood by the endless parade of old Etonions lining the frontbenches of the House of Commons.

The north of England should join the newly independent Scotland and regain control over its own destiny.

I live in Newcastle and feel we are far more connected and cared about by Scotland than by London.”

So three questions for you -
- Which part of the EU caused these feelings ?
- How will leaving the EU address them?
- If leaving the EU does not address them, who will the right wing press blame then?

if you would like to believe a local newspaper poll and 53,000 votes from an area that has a population twice that of Ireland fine, but I'll humour you for now.

The area you mention voted, quite convincingly, to leave the european union. If this new utopia came in to being, it would apparently be anti eu, hence why I asked the question.

Your questions had nothing to do with my post, but I guess that is the price of questioning the cult of scottish independence, so i will answer them as best I can.

I don't know, I don't live in the north of England, why don't you ask them?
I don't know, I am not advocating leaving the european union
I don't know, I don't read the right wing, or any of the tabloids to be honest

Now let me ask you a question, when Scotland frees itself from the shackles of Westminster and takes back control, who will the Scottish Nationalists blame for all their problems?

bob mcbob

Aegir wrote: »

if you would like to believe a local newspaper poll and 53,000 votes from an area that has a population twice that of Ireland fine, but I'll humour you for now.

The area you mention voted, quite convincingly, to leave the european union. If this new utopia came in to being, it would apparently be anti eu, hence why I asked the question.

Your questions had nothing to do with my post, but I guess that is the price of questioning the cult of scottish independence, so i will answer them as best I can.

I don't know, I don't live in the north of England, why don't you ask them?
I don't know, I am not advocating leaving the european union
I don't know, I don't read the right wing, or any of the tabloids to be honest

Now let me ask you a question, when Scotland frees itself from the shackles of Westminster and takes back control, who will the Scottish Nationalists blame for all their problems?

Ok so you make statements but when questioned about them - the response is I don't know. So the reason I asked is that from my experience, some of the EU referendum votes were anti-establishment (as much Westminster as Brussels - if not more). So that is why i asked - but this seems to have gone whoosh.

So in terms of my views on independence - I do not think Scotland would be a utopia after independence. I have haven't joined any cult recently.
I am certain Scotland will be a poorer country for a while. It believe it will take maybe 10 years to get to where things are now but in the longer term, it will be richer. That is a price I believe is worth paying for the future generations and yes I do have skin in this particular game.

If the Scots go independent then we have no-one to blame for the problems which is as it should be.

[Deleted User]

bob mcbob wrote: »

Ok so you make statements but when questioned about them - the response is I don't know. So the reason I asked is that from my experience, some of the EU referendum votes were anti-establishment (as much Westminster as Brussels - if not more). So that is why i asked - but this seems to have gone whoosh.

I didn't make a statement, I asked a question and followed it up by presenting a fact, that the majority of people in the region you highlighted voted to leave the european union.

The Brexit vote seems to have been a number of things, depending on what agenda people want to push. racism, take back control, protest, blatant English Nationalism and a desire to return to the days of empire seems to be the favourite of certain posters on here, that doesn't really fit in with the narrative that 55% of the people north of Stoke want to become part of Scotland though.

bob mcbob wrote: »

So in terms of my views on independence - I do not think Scotland would be a utopia after independence. I have haven't joined any cult recently.
I am certain Scotland will be a poorer country for a while. It believe it will take maybe 10 years to get to where things are now but in the longer term, it will be richer. That is a price I believe is worth paying for the future generations and yes I do have skin in this particular game.

If the Scots go independent then we have no-one to blame for the problems which is as it should be.

swap independence with Brexit and Scotland with Britain and you sound very much like a Jacob Rees Mogg.

BonnieSituation

Aegir wrote: »

when you get a minute, could you maybe answer the questions I posted?

Could you honestly not figure out what I was getting at by mentioning "an Irish forum" and "1922" in relation to this:

Aegir wrote:

...you feel somehow your Scottish identity is undermined by being in the union...

Seriously?

On a Scottish independence thread you couldn't work that out?

BonnieSituation

Aegir wrote: »

I didn't make a statement, I asked a question and followed it up by presenting a fact, that the majority of people in the region you highlighted voted to leave the european union.

The Brexit vote seems to have been a number of things, depending on what agenda people want to push. racism, take back control, protest, blatant English Nationalism and a desire to return to the days of empire seems to be the favourite of certain posters on here, that doesn't really fit in with the narrative that 55% of the people north of Stoke want to become part of Scotland though.

swap independence with Brexit and Scotland with Britain and you sound very much like a Jacob Rees Mogg.

Given you feel so strongly about it yourself, why do you think Scotland SHOULD NOT be independent?

[Deleted User]

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Could you honestly not figure out what I was getting at by mentioning "an Irish forum" and "1922" in relation to this:

Seriously?

On a Scottish independence thread you couldn't work that out?

so still avoiding the questions then :rolleyes:

BonnieSituation

Aegir wrote: »

so still avoiding the questions then :rolleyes:

You don't seem to be able to do nuance. What's the point in engaging with someone like that?

I mean, I'm sure it wasn't so cryptic was it? Maybe I'm too much of a smart-arse and should speak in a manner more becoming of your abilities.

---

Go on reiterate your questions so you can get your end away.

And don't forget you have been posed one yourself.

[Deleted User]

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Given you feel so strongly about it yourself, why do you think Scotland SHOULD NOT be independent?

which part was difficult to read?

Aegir wrote: »

if you Scots want to leave, fine. That is your choice. Personally I think England and Scotland are better together and a hard border between the two would damage both countries, but I get it, you feel somehow your Scottish identity is undermined by being in the union.

BonnieSituation

Aegir wrote: »

which part was difficult to read?

"damage both countries"

How would this manifest?

[Deleted User]

BonnieSituation wrote: »

You don't seem to be able to do nuance. What's the point in engaging with someone like that?

I mean, I'm sure it wasn't so cryptic was it? Maybe I'm too much of a smart-arse and should speak in a manner more becoming of your abilities.

I get that you are somehow trying to link Scottish independence to Irish independence, but I am interested to know why you think that is?

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Go on reiterate your questions so you can get your end away.

Let's just do the one, shall we?

when you say interests, do you mean that you find something interesting, or do you mean that it is in Ireland's interests for Scotland to become independent? When you say "Unfortunately as an Irishman living in Dublin it's unlikely that I'll have a choice in the matter." it gives the impression that believe it is the latter.

In which case, why is it in Ireland's best interests what happens in a foreign country?