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Degree from IT or University, is there a difference?

joe40

I have two teenagers who will be making career choices over the coming years. Obviously this will be their choice and I'll support them as much as possible but I also want to be the position to offer informed advice.

So my question has to do with career/ further education prospects for students from institute of Technology as opposed to University.

For example, if my youngster was to do an engineering degree at the local IT, it would make a lot more financial sense, than paying for accommodation in one of our cities.

But would there be a downside in terms of how prospective employers would view the degree or how other universities would view the degree if he were to apply for a post graduate course.

In short is it worth the extra expense for a student to attend university (and pay for accommodation) as opposed to the local IT.

For now leaving out the "student experience" aspect

Interested in hearing about people's experiences or opinions.

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JohnnyFlash

MIT is a university.

Ficheall

joe40 wrote: »

Thanks for all the people that gave informed and helpful responses but the above post is incredible.

He absolutely has a point about the bizarre fascination with going to third-level.

The third-level social experience can be invaluable, so I wouldn't put that too far down your list of reasons for choosing one over the other, but the actual knowledge gained in a third-level course is certainly not all it's "cracked up to be".
I did my degree in NUIG, and remembered sweet eff all of it after my degree - mostly an exercise in exceedingly-short-term memorisation. A waste of four years as far as actually learning anything went.

I'd sooner hire a decent IT graduate with a couple of months' experience than a university graduate with none.

I think a series of short-term internships in varying roles would be more beneficial educationwise than four years of speculative theory aimed at something you quite likely won't end up enjoying anyway. I'm 32 and still don't know what I want to do, (except that it's something I'm not qualified for) 17 year old me didn't have a hope of making the right call

Mr.Fantastic

EmmetSpiceland wrote: »

Obviously, a university degree from Trinity or UCD would be the most sought after degrees in the country. After that you’d be looking to NUIG or UCC.

I don’t anyone really rates UL or Maynooth too highly. But they’d both be considered superior to DCU.

I’m sure IT graduates do well for themselves but I don’t think anyone who’s gone through Trinity, UCD, UCC, or NUIG really feels on the same level to the tech schools.

Now, having said that, an IT degree is far superior to any of the “wishy-washy” Arts degrees from the top universities.

I find comments about wishy-washy arts degree infantile to be honest.

I have three qualifications two in humanities one bachelors and one masters and one in computer science.

All three had their own challenges, and required a different train of thought.

If everyone was made study a technical discipline the world would be a very very dull place.

Trigger Happy

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

MIT is a university.

Some people think the LSE is just a school.

Mrs OBumble

Church on Tuesday wrote: »

Or worse still.... a PLC.

The absolute horror of it my old boy.

PLC's are a waste of space.

If the kids cannot get into a real course that they WANT to do, then advise to look for an apprenticeship.

I've never met a poor plumber.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

2011 wrote: »

Exactly.
You have just made my point i.e. there are far more important factors than whether someone graduates from an IT or a university.

MIT is a university. You’re being a bit disingenuous lumping in MIT with Irish ITs.

For the sciences, it’s Ivy League-level prestigious. I think that’s why RTCs changed their names to ITs here in Ireland, to catch some of the name recognition of that institution.

partyguinness

"CIT is the place to be
If you can't get into
UCC
UCC
UCC"

2011

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

MIT is a university. You’re being a bit disingenuous lumping in MIT with Irish ITs. For the sciences, it’s Ivy League-level prestigious. I think that’s why RTCs changed their names to ITs here in Ireland, to catch some of the name recognition of that institution.

.....and now what was DIT is a university.

Snow Garden

My brother has a large Accountancy practice and trained/worked in one of the Big 6 in the 90s. He graduated with a Commerce degree from UCG. A lot of trainee accountants have passed through his practice down the years. He always said that Business degree graduates from the ITs were better educated and harder workers than the BComms coming from UCD/UCC/UCG etc.

Church on Tuesday

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

PLC's are a waste of space.

If the kids cannot get into a real course that they WANT to do, then advise to look for an apprenticeship.

I've never met a poor plumber.

I did a PLC and I thoroughly enjoyed it. Learned a lot from it too and I have University degrees.

Any kind of education is not a waste of time.

Padre_Pio

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

MIT is a university.

MIT is a research institute. They have as many post grads as undergrads. CIT has more students. Less worried about providing a foundational education than getting research done and papers published.

Kudos to them, but they're not an educational facility in the traditional sense any more.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

2011 wrote: »

.....and now what was DIT is a university.

You’re completely missing my point. No Irish IT or even Irish university comes close to MIT for pedigree.

partyguinness

Lads, anyone who thinks MIT and the ITs are comparable are on mad delusional drugs.

They are not even in the same galaxy let alone planet.

LirW

baby and crumble wrote: »

To everyone pooh-poohing 'wishy washy' arts degrees, tell me how would you get on in life without

teachers
historians
researchers for the documentaries and tv shows you like
musicians
psychologists
social workers
social researchers
policy makers

and the myriad other roles that are filled with arts graduates for whom their degree is what got them their job, and taught them what they need to know?

The absolute WORST thing a parent can do is push their kids into a career they don't like or have zero aptitude for. At best they'll finish their degree and hop into a job they hate, at worst they'll drop out, or worse. I did an arts degree and followed it up with a relevant postgrad. I'm now happily in an excellent job that I love. If my parents had tried to push me towards a STEM career I'd probably hate my life.

My mother has a Master in Art History and she went on to work in architectural preservation and years later opened a restoration business with my step dad who is a trained restorer.
I have a sister who has a degree in Pedagogy (they're probably the most looked down on in her university) and she trains now to become a Psychotherapist while working in an adult counseling center.

I detest this whole thing "but the gender studies degree haha blabla". An arts degree can open doors to career paths that aren't straight forward to get into and while they often require further study there are plenty of roles out there that look for people with very intellectual and philosophical skill sets.
As you said not everyone has the aptitude to be a lawyer, a doctor or a pharmaceutical researcher. I completely agree with it and I also know first hand how difficult it is for very creative people to find their path because it's often more about fulfilment than monetary success and it's a very difficult line to walk.
I'm aware not every history graduate can become a researcher, but does every IT graduate end up working in code or every business graduate has a suit dress code desk job?

I made a few pretty bad educational decisions in my life and that with a pinch of bad luck and now I decided to go back to college and do something that combines my creative aptitude with something that can be monetized. I would be useless in STEM, I have no interest in working in law. I'd say it's much much harder for people with a creative streak in life to find foot because the value of Arts and anything related to is is much much less than science and society completely backs it up.

lawred2

partyguinness wrote: »

Lads, anyone who thinks MIT and the ITs are comparable are on mad delusional drugs.

They are not even in the same galaxy let alone planet.

the only thing in common is the name

they don't compare on any level - in Ireland IT is a branding exercise. MIT is an institute of technology in the true meaning of the words.

2011

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

You’re completely missing my point. No Irish IT or even Irish university comes close to MIT for pedigree.

....and you are missing my points which are:
1) MIT has is an IT and it has not impacted negatively on its reputation.
2) What was DIT is now a university and it has not changed anything.
3) It is what a graduate does in the years post graduation that really counts. This is where they really learn.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

2011 wrote: »

....and you are missing my points which are:
1) MIT has is an IT and it has impacted negatively on its reputation.
2) What was DIT is now a university and it has not changed anything.
3) It is what a graduate does in the years post graduation that really counts. This is where they really learn.

What?

2011

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

What?

Edit: My bad!!! Typo, I should have said “has not”.
My fault for trying to respond in an iPhone. I will correct.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

2011 wrote: »

What diss you think MIT stood for? Check the link:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massachusetts_Institute_of_Technology

What are you talking about?

Of course I know what it stands for. The ‘What?’ is in relation to one of your points that made no sense.

Tom Dunne

2011 wrote: »

....and you are missing my points which are:
1)MIT has is an IT and it has impacted negatively on its reputation.

Edit: Saw your edit.

http://news.mit.edu/2019/qs-ranks-mit-world-no-1-university-0618

2011 wrote: »

2) What was DIT is now a university and it has not changed anything.

DIT was a university in all but name. It exceeded many measures for many years. So it could be argued that the change in status has acknowledged all the good work over the previous years.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

2011 wrote: »

....and you are missing my points which are:
1) MIT has is an IT and it has not impacted negatively on its reputation.
2) What was DIT is now a university and it has not changed anything.
3) It is what a graduate does in the years post graduation that really counts. This is where they really learn.

Of course it flipping hasn’t.

It’s fucking MIT. Sadly, DIT or AIT or WIT won’t resonate the same way.

[Deleted User]

EmmetSpiceland wrote: »

I wasn’t aware that graduates of Bess only ended up with mere a BA. Seems like a waste now, I’ve only seen BESS or BBS on paper. What does O’Leary use? I’m guessing if it’s a BA he just leaves it out.

Didn’t know that about Denis, just assumed he’d bought his degree from Dublin Business School or one of the other private ones who wait for the cheque to clear before printing your qualification.

Yep BESS is BA in most cases.

I suspect O'Leary doesn't have to talk about his degree much anymore.

You seem to think having an arts degree would be something to be ashamed of? I have no idea why. Loads of incredibly successful people have arts degrees, the idea that you learn nothing useful studying history (just to give one example) is completely absurd.

2011

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Of course it flipping hasn’t.

That’s my point.

Sadly, DIT or AIT or WIT won’t resonate the same way.

....true and you can add Trinity, UCD and all of the universities in Ireland to that list too.

Ficheall

LirW wrote: »

I detest this whole thing "but the gender studies degree haha blabla". An arts degree can open doors to career paths that aren't straight forward to get into and while they often require further study there are plenty of roles out there that look for people with very intellectual and philosophical skill sets.

I've no problem with most Arts degrees, but this nonsense bothers me - Arts students aren't more intellectual than anyone else. (The oft-cited "critical thinking" is even worse - any computer programmer, for example, will apply "critical thinking" in their everyday tasks, and have their ideas tested. Partaking in boardsie discussions (and indeed most discussions...) requires critical thinking.)
And wth is a "philosophical skill set"? Is that a euphemism, or is it something one trains for by pontificating in a cafe until the wee hours while studying one's navel?

2011

TimeToShine wrote: »

I disagree with this to be honest, you may be correct but at board and higher up level most of these companies are dominated by UCD and Trinity graduates or MBAs from prestigious universities abroad.

You disagree with me but I may be correct?

Yes, I concede that board level things may be different. However an MBA is not where someone starts. They start with a primary degree. Once they do an MBA following many years experience where they did their primary degree becomes less relevant.

Over here in the UK where I'm currently based you wouldn't stand a chance with the top consultancies unless you've a degree from one of these two universities or a red brick. Bain, BCG, McKinsey etc all wouldn't touch IT graduates with a barge pole, nor would any of the banks or big oil/gas majors. Straight into the bin.

I can’t comment about the UK. The OP is clearly based in Ireland. In the ROI demand is outstripping supply. People are hired and paid based on their ability, not by name dropping. Engineering consultancies over here want people that deliver, everything else takes a back seat.

I don't disagree that you can do very well without attending a university but telling someone bright and academic that there's no difference between a top university and the local IT is both untrue and completely unfair on them.

It depends on the area of study the IT in question and the university in question. You need to take my post in context. I was responding to a post that essentially said that ITs produced technicians and universities produced engineers.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

2011 wrote: »

That’s my point.

....true and you can add Trinity, UCD and all of the universities in Ireland to that list too.

Yes, as I already said. So it was a daft example. It’s naive to think that because MIT on your CV won’t hold you back from being hired by some firms and will probably greatly increase your chances of interview that the same holds of an Irish IT.

[Deleted User]

Ficheall wrote: »

And wth is a "philosophical skill set"? Is that a euphemism, or is it something one trains for by pontificating in a cafe until the wee hours while studying one's navel?

Generally speaking it's a skillset relating to knowledge and learning.

Is this true? If A is true, does that mean B must be true? What is the nature of evidence? Why should I believe some forms of evidence and not others? Is this argument valid, or not valid? Why? How do I use the facts at my disposal to solve this specific problem? How do I clearly articulate my argument and conclusions?

These are all skills that are a) extremely valuable and b) in short supply nowadays.

You don't have to study philosophy to have them of course, but it isn't a bad place to start. Same is true of a lot of other arts subjects, particularly history.

LirW

Ficheall wrote: »

I've no problem with most Arts degrees, but this nonsense bothers me - Arts students aren't more intellectual than anyone else. (The oft-cited "critical thinking" is even worse - any computer programmer, for example, will apply "critical thinking" in their everyday tasks, and have their ideas tested. Partaking in boardsie discussions (and indeed most discussions...) requires critical thinking.)
And wth is a "philosophical skill set"? Is that a euphemism, or is it something one trains for by pontificating in a cafe until the wee hours while studying one's navel?

Funnily enough, cafes used to be a valid place for intellectuals to exchange and write, this was exactly the way you imagine it and some pretty big names like Sigmund Freud were into it.
But that completely aside, my point is:
We all have different cognitive abilities and process the world differently.
Great scientists and researchers often have very logical thinking and reasoning, make sense of numerical material and follow certain processes that require exactly these abilities. You can only learn this to a certain point.
Divergent thinking is often something convergent minds struggle to understand and the other way around.

And this is pretty much what it is about. "Creative thinking" is a different way of problem solving than "logical thinking". One uses facts, one uses imagination and people tend to have stronger aptitudes in just one of them.
Art degrees require a lot of divergent thinking because you'll come across a lot of problems that can't be solved logically and the process of solving issues this way are fundamentally different than logical ones.
Turn it around and take a field that is heavily fact based, they require a good logical ability.

It doesn't mean that one is superior to the other and also doesn't mean that scientists can't have creative hobbies.

RacoonQueen

If I'm hiring IT graduates I don't care where their qualifications come from, I barely pay attention to it. If it is a new or recent grad I will look at the subjects they covered in their degree and I will look at the title or whatever information they provided on final year project and see if there is anything relevant to the job they are applying for.
They'd be better placed learning how to do their CVs and cover letters/job application well and learning not to just blanket apply for every job they find (it's obvious when they've done that).

Ficheall

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Is this true? If A is true, does that mean B must be true? What is the nature of evidence? Why should I believe some forms of evidence and not others? Is this argument valid, or not valid? Why? How do I use the facts at my disposal to solve this specific problem? How do I clearly articulate my argument and conclusions?

These are all skills that are a) extremely valuable and b) in short supply nowadays.

You don't have to study philosophy to have them of course, but it isn't a bad place to start. Same is true of a lot of other arts subjects, particularly history.

All basic tenets of scientific study, surely..