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NBP part II

oscarBravo

The old NBP thread had hit the 10,000-post threshold that makes the boards.ie hamsters cry, so here's a shiny new one.

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Marlow

Gary kk wrote: »

In sub 12 of the link i have shared it clearly outlines why wireless can't keep at pace with ftth. It also states that it must be future proof with speeds of 1gb been provided to some resident in the mid 2020. Kidda guess we have already passed the above sentence in certain parts of the country.

Key words here are future proof and 1gb

The future proof requirement is to avail of the money provided by the contract to cover the premises, that have no service as described as per the original tender. Correct.

It can not be made a requirement for infrastructure, that is not part of the tender and in place or planned for and notified to the department before the contracts are signed. So that does not negate the fact, that said state aid money can not be paid out for premises who already have service within the requirements of the original tender.

If it could be made a requirement, then you would have to include all of OpenEIR VDSL AND Virgins rollout in the tender again. Most of that is not future proof. OpenEIR has actually pre-empted that with their IFN rollout .. but that will still leave about 100k premises on VDSL, that are not part of the NBP at this point of time.

You can't have it one way. Either you include it all, if you want it to that level .. or you go by the original tender specifications, that cover all the infrastructure left out in the first place.

State aid rules is an entire different matter here.

/M

clohamon

Marlow wrote: »

State aid rules is an entire different matter here.

/M

Do you know if the challenge will be made in the form of a State aid complaint to the European Commission? Or will it be made in the Irish courts?

Are the challengers using or planning to use licensed spectrum?

Marlow

Marlow wrote: »

Not sure, who they interviewed, but it is exactly what I predicted. And it is happening, because the Department mismanaged the entire process.

clohamon wrote: »

Do you know if the challenge will be made in the form of a State aid complaint to the European Commission? Or will it be made in the Irish courts?

Are the challengers using or planning to use licensed spectrum?

Sorry .. I am not telepathic ... and as you can see, from my post, I am not even sure, who they interviewed there.

How would you come to the conclusion, that ... if I don't know, who they interviewed ... that I know what route these companies are taking? I'm just saying, that there is an indication of it happening and yes .. it will be more than likely to the European Commission, because the Department has no interest in following up on said complaints ... it goes against them.

As I stated, even OpenEIR had to bring the 300k to european level, before the department interacted with them on that. The department obviously tried to paint a different picture afterwards.

/M

Johnboy1951

All we need now is for Openeir to make an announcement that they intend to roll their rural fibre network to all premises in the state not previously covered.

That would be more believeable than what is coming from Wisps.
Openeir have a track record of doing a roll out.
State aid cannot be made available where a commercial entity has stated plans to service the area.

They would probably be in a position to do it quicker than the NBP too!

allanpkr

yadda yadda yadda why dont we just wait and see?

Orebro

God the WISP industry has to be one of the most hateful ever created in this country. Hopefully the minister and Broadband Ireland sign the contract this week and put the WISP business on notice.

theguzman

Orebro wrote: »

God the WISP industry has to be one of the most hateful ever created in this country. Hopefully the minister and Broadband Ireland sign the contract this week and put the WISP business on notice.

They are reacting like the Monopoly they are.

Marlow

Sorry, but apart from the article referring to 137k premises, that seemingly have been pointed out by the sources of the article being able to be covered by wireless operators, the article does not refer to WISPs.

It refers to "other providers". Ireland has providers on quite a few different technologies: FTTH, copper phone lines, cable-tv .. even satellite. Just to mention a few.

Of these providers, there are a multitude, that provide using on more than one media. A few regional providers even operate their own FTTH networks, even though in small scale.

So the WISP bashing here continues, without even knowing who was interviewed and basically throwing all alternative providers in the same bin .. without even knowing anything about them.

It's even clear from numbers of wireless operators that are registered with Comreg and numbers, that we've been told that submitted on the last call of data, that only approx half or less of the operators active in the country submitted data in this round.

I find that absolutely hilarious, because: the NBP is a tender, that will spend state aid .. both irish and european tax money.

This requires said tender to be as objective and complete within the realm of the tender outline as possible. If it gets mismanaged (which is has .. more than once), then it fires back.

So this has nothing to do with the industry. This actually has to do with the department and how they've ran the show. That's where the blame is to be put.

If they had kept it objective and complete, they wouldn't have to postpone the signing of the contract time after time.

This has even be proven, where Varadkar (representing the department) blamed Imagine for a delay, when in reality Imagine and other providers just responded for a call for data initiated by the department. And that bluff was called. So the delay was not caused by the industry. It was caused by the unpreparedness of the department for what they had incoming on their own request.

And I'm honestly not shocked, when the industry fights back given the departments track record to these tenders in the past. Just look at how the NBS worked out. That was also state aid spend competing with existing providers on the ground, providing speeds lower than what the existing providers charged most of the time. They just sat still then and waited it out, because it was 100% clear that it wasn't going to last long before it failed.

The choice of the current round with the infrastructure being handed to the operator at the end of the contract (may it or may it not be anything worth by then) also shows the departments lack of learning with eircom/telecom eireann. Because that one worked out well, too .... NOT.

/M

Ultimanemo

Orebro wrote: »

God the WISP industry has to be one of the most hateful ever created in this country. Hopefully the minister and Broadband Ireland sign the contract this week and put the WISP business on notice.

Why WISPS are trying to stop The NBP?, because they know they can't compete with it, because they know their service is far inferior to FTTH.

Marlow

Ultimanemo wrote: »

Why WISPS are trying to stop The NBP?, because they know they can't compete with it, because they know their service is far inferior to FTTH.

It's not the WISPs trying to stop the NBP. It is the operators affected (all of them ... disregardless of tech) providing the department with data based on their request for said data.

Once that data is provided, the department can not ignore it. It is now public knowledge.

And the department clearly has underestimated how incomplete their data set was. Which is something that has resulted from their ignorance and lack of interaction with the registered providers in the country in the first place.

Had they been on top of that .. and had they not made a mess of it .. none of this would have come to light.

I see this as a good thing. This countries telecoms policies are still very much "Dial-Up Dempsey" style. It's actually regional providers that have remedied a lot of that on their own .. just doing it instead of dealing with the department.

And yes .. if the call for data comes .. and they feel themselves threatened .. they will actually make an effort to supply the data. They might not have done that before. The department then is forced to take action in regards to that data.

/M

allanpkr

let us not be unrealistic , thr providers are going to be wisps..satelite lol no..one but no..one is taking that as read.seriously? at end of day lets say the wisps win a case ...lol.. so a customer is paying same price as his next door . who has ftth speeds in a few yrs wont match...how long before a fibre company comes along to soak up the rest of homes when wisps cannot match data needed in future which will be very high. a little realism here guys. customers will drive the market.

[Deleted User]

I still want to know how any of these WISPs meets the criteria because they certainly ****ing don't where I live and is the case for many other people. They only get removed from the map if they 1) are currently being met by a consistent 30/6 connection or 2) the ISP commits to meeting that target like Eir did. Neither is going to happen with the WISPs so can we stop ****ing feeding them.

[Deleted User]

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

All we need now is for Openeir to make an announcement that they intend to roll their rural fibre network to all premises in the state not previously covered.

That would be more believeable than what is coming from Wisps.
Openeir have a track record of doing a roll out.
State aid cannot be made available where a commercial entity has stated plans to service the area.

They would probably be in a position to do it quicker than the NBP too!

I'd honestly take that then leaving ****ing "but we already provide up to 150mbps with our magical 5G oh wait sorry it's 9PM on a Friday???" to not do it or just barely meet requirements now then **** us over later like we had with Three last time.

plodder

The wireless brigade were up early this morning texting all the usual nonsense into Newstalk's Broadband vox pop. Li-fi is the next greatest thing on the way to replace fibre apparently :rolleyes:

allanpkr

plodder wrote: »

The wireless brigade were up early this morning texting all the usual nonsense into Newstalk's Broadband vox pop. Li-fi is the next greatest thing on the way to replace fibre apparently :rolleyes:

lifi lol , damn desparation it seems..more talk like that and they will convince everyone ftth is only answer. which any intelligent person knows it is.

ednwireland

plodder wrote: »

The wireless brigade were up early this morning texting all the usual nonsense into Newstalk's Broadband vox pop. Li-fi is the next greatest thing on the way to replace fibre apparently :rolleyes:

the same wireless brigade that cant provide me with broadband despite "covering" My area

rodge123

plodder wrote: »

The wireless brigade were up early this morning texting all the usual nonsense into Newstalk's Broadband vox pop. Li-fi is the next greatest thing on the way to replace fibre apparently :rolleyes:

I had to switch station before I crashed into someone driving to work, listening to the braindead texts in as well as one of the presenters was not a healthy way to start a Monday morning!

Orebro

And I would guess that most of the texts were coming from people sitting in their kitchens having breakfast, with their lovely fibre routers blinking away near them in the hall.

user1842

I really worry if Imagine say they can serve over 100,000 premises even though in reality they cant (by quoting their off peak speeds).

How will the department know they are lying?

rayfitzharris

user1842 wrote: »

I really worry if Imagine say they can serve over 100,000 premises even though in reality they cant (by quoting their off peak speeds).

How will the department know they are lying?

7:00 pm

9:30am

This is how,(besides the lucky few on empty sectors), us poor exploited/monopolised wisp customers are going to have to demonstrate this reality.

allanpkr

when this is all done and dusted and nbp built, and some customers wont have ftth. it wont take long for ftth providers to soak up the few homes without ftth, and the crying wisps crooks will finally dump
there out of date obselete fw broadband.
The honest good fixed wireless suppliers saw the future , adapted and now offer ftth broadband if availible. i.e westnet broadband , great service, honest advertising , great after service. what all wisps should aspire to. but they didnt cause basically they are crooks.

tototoe

allanpkr wrote: »

when this is all done and dusted and nbp built, and some customers wont have ftth. it wont take long for ftth providers to soak up the few homes without ftth, and the crying wisps crooks will finally dump
there out of date obselete fw broadband.
The honest good fixed wireless suppliers saw the future , adapted and now offer ftth broadband if availible. i.e westnet broadband , great service, honest advertising , great after service. what all wisps should aspire to. but they didnt cause basically they are crooks.

So all the WISPs are crooks, but the ones offerring FTTH are ok..lols.
Some amount of nonsense on this thread to be fair.

allanpkr

tototoe wrote: »

So all the WISPs are crooks, but the ones offerring FTTH are ok..lols.
Some amount of nonsense on this thread to be fair.

funny that i do agree about your nonsense. i spent half the quote saying how good westnet was as a wisp . pray do tell me of other wisps that are thought of just as highly. i would luv to know. and before you AGAIN mis construe what that means . i would really like to know the good wisps , i think they should be set aside from the crooks. i.e those advertising certain speeds with no intention of supplying them...will always amaze me people that dont read slower to fully what is being said.

ussjtrunks

Dont most Wisps list upto speeds like the rest of the industry, only Wisps I see as a crook is imagine because they heavily oversubscribe their service the one I'm with currently doesn't even allow new subs once it reaches a certain target.

In my mind I'm glad we have the Wisps otherwise wed still be stuck on sub 1mb speeds on Eirs Dsl. I see them doing right by customers and switching them over to their Fibre service once available.

fergus1001

plodder wrote: »

The wireless brigade were up early this morning texting all the usual nonsense into Newstalk's Broadband vox pop. Li-fi is the next greatest thing on the way to replace fibre apparently :rolleyes:

me tomorrow when the contract is signed

3fz5p0

allanpkr

ussjtrunks wrote: »

Dont most Wisps list upto speeds like the rest of the industry, only Wisps I see as a crook is imagine because they heavily oversubscribe their service the one I'm with currently doesn't even allow new subs once it reaches a certain target.

In my mind I'm glad we have the Wisps otherwise wed still be stuck on sub 1mb speeds on Eirs Dsl. I see them doing right by customers and switching them over to their Fibre service once available.

westnet have always only advertised or offered 2mb 4 mb or one more cant think what it is. but agree with your last point as i said when i get ftth i will go with westnet. as iv said previously numorous times , the clever wisps adapt to market and offer when availible ftth. those that dont adapt will as history shows in all other walks of life .....die.

Gary kk

fergus1001 wrote: »

me tomorrow when the contract is signed

It won't be signed to tomorrow

Gonzo

If Wisps were to get part of the NBP contract then the past 8 years have been for nothing and some rural areas will be left behind forever.

Fibre is the only way. It's the only technology that works. It's the only technology that is future proofed. I've rarely seen a positive post from a Wisp customer here in the past 10 years. There are too many problems distance from mast, interference, line of sight, contention the list goes on.

They promise a Ferrari but at the end of the day many end up with a bicycle. I'm not against Wisp business's but they can adapt like Airwire and a few others and start offering FTTH services to keep their business relevant and future proofed. The sooner we can get rid of wireless services, dongles and satellite broadband the better.

Gonzo

tototoe wrote: »

So all the WISPs are crooks, but the ones offerring FTTH are ok..lols.
Some amount of nonsense on this thread to be fair.

Many of the wisps are decent companies trying to offer a solution to those who have nothing, however the service many of them provide fall way below what is acceptable today. This causes them to have poor reviews and generally not many recommendations. This can't stay like this forever. If the NBP goes for a fully fiber solution then the wisps can start offering their service on this future proofed and reliable network.

Looks at Airwire, they started off as a wisp only service. They now offer their service through Siro and OpenEir and it would be very difficult to find a negative post about them here on boards because they have future proofed their business and provide a genuine great service to those who can get it. Hopefully many more rural areas can avail of services like theirs over the next few years if the NBP goes the correct way. There is nothing really preventing other wisp business from doing the same.

There is really only one very large wireless operator in this country that do pull off some serious cowboy practices and tricks who I have absolutely no time for.

Johnboy1951

Gonzo wrote: »

If Wisps were to get part of the NBP contract then the past 8 years have been for nothing and some rural areas will be left behind forever. ....

IF the wisps had created a single representative organisation with proper legal standing then I expect they could have been considered for part of the NBP.
They had years to do so and did not.

No government contract was ever going to be awarded to a bunch of individual companies in any shape or form.

I conclude from what did NOT happen that the Wisps were either not interested or could not agree.

I hope their complaints (expected now) are thrown out without haste, and the NBP can proceed as required by many citizens.