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Random EV thoughts.....

Old diesel

The main motors forum has the motors chat thread for the little things one would like to say but might not justify a thread.

Thought it might be an idea for here re hybrids and EV stuff.....

To kick off - i wonder if a new measurement for EVs might be assuming a start trip at 100 percent......

A how much range do you get with a 15 minute stop.

With a 350 kw charging a Porsche Tayman might do very well with getting on for 400 miles...

A Leaf 62 not so good.

Obviously where a car can do more then 50 kw charging we would need both a 50 kw and a whatever the cars top rate is figure*.

*IF chargers are available

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Lumen

jusmeig wrote: »

This makes no sense. We are transitioning towards mass transit on a whole.

Are we?

The consistent cultural trend of the last century or so is individualisation. It's everywhere, from how we choose to accomodate ourselves (group living->people preferring one bed apartments), to how we raise our kids (stay at home parent -> childcare) to how we redistribute money and services (family -> welfare state), to how we entertain ourselves (cinema and TV -> staring at a personal screen).

Bearing this in mind, I see more of a future for one and two-passenger vehicles than buses and trains.

People like personal freedom.

drunkmonkey

jusmeig wrote: »

But batteries can be recycled and have second (and sometimes) third life products. Once you light something on fire....its usually not good for a second go.

They haven't figured out how to recycle the batteries yet, an ice car is a lot more recyclable than an EV.
I've still my concerns about these becoming ticking time bombs just based on my own experience with lithium. They swell with age and become easy pierce. They have to be more unstable in an accident as they age. We'll know in 10yrs.
Tesla battery seems good but are all lithium car batteries made to the same standard.

Lumen

drunkmonkey wrote: »

They haven't figured out how to recycle the batteries yet, an ice car is a lot more recyclable than an EV.
I've still my concerns about these becoming ticking time bombs just based on my own experience with lithium. They swell with age and become easy pierce. They have to be more unstable in an accident as they age. We'll know in 10yrs.
Tesla battery seems good but are all lithium car batteries made to the same standard.

I think the issue is that there's not yet much commercial incentive to develop recycling technology as there's more potential value in reuse.

jusmeig

drunkmonkey wrote: »

They haven't figured out how to recycle the batteries yet, an ice car is a lot more recyclable than an EV.
I've still my concerns about these becoming ticking time bombs just based on my own experience with lithium. They swell with age and become easy pierce. They have to be more unstable in an accident as they age. We'll know in 10yrs.
Tesla battery seems good but are all lithium car batteries made to the same standard.

Who are they? You can recycle batteries, has been the case for years.

drunkmonkey

Lumen wrote: »

I think the issue is that there's not yet much commercial incentive to develop recycling technology as there's more potential value in reuse.

The technology hasn't been invented yet, These will become more unstable as they age, it's not something I'd want anywhere near my house when they get old.
What we have now is certainly not the future. It could even become a huge mistake.

liamog

drunkmonkey wrote: »

The technology hasn't been invented yet, These will become more unstable as they age, it's not something I'd want anywhere near my house when they get old.
What we have now is certainly not the future. It could even become a huge mistake.

The technology exists, in terms of EV batteries we're still at the re-use stage.
It's not economical to recycle the materials in a depleted EV battery, when you can instead sell off the depleted cells for more money and not incur the cost of re manufacture.

Here's a Lithium Ion battery plant being built in Singapore.

https://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/singapore/new-environmentally-friendly-lithium-ion-battery-recycling-tes-12046280

ELM327

Mike9832 wrote: »

You could be right

100km PHEV make alot of sense

Automakers want them for sure and governments want to keep jobs

Agree, 100km phev (real world, so prob 120km WLTP) will be a good way to introduce people to electric driving.

That way it's EV for the week and petrol/diesel for the longer trips.

If there were no Teslas I'd love to have the X5/merc new phev with +100km range and fast charging

McGiver

Mike9832 wrote: »

Where do you think batteries come from?

They'll be digging up half the earth to get the rare earth minerals needed for 6 billion people to be transported by batteries

What rare minerals exactly, clarify?

Note: 6b people won't all need cars anytime soon.

McGiver

drunkmonkey wrote: »

The technology hasn't been invented yet

Incorrect.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-019-1682-5

These will become more unstable as they age, it's not something I'd want anywhere near my house when they get old.

Incorrect.

Likelihood of fire / explosion, which is a disadvantage of Li-ion battery with a liquid electrolyte, has nothing to do with battery age. It's caused by a) cell defect, b) physical insult or c) incorrect charging or combination of the three.

Hence we'll move to Li-ion solid state / Na-ion liquid or solid state / K-ion liquid or solid state in the upcoming years as they can't catch fire and have other better features.

What we have now is certainly not the future.

Correct. The battery technology is evolving. Petrol engines also evolved in last 20 years.

McGiver

ELM327 wrote: »

Agree, 100km phev (real world, so prob 120km WLTP) will be a good way to introduce people to electric driving.

I also think so. Larger battery and smaller engine or something like that. Basically a Leaf Rex sort of!

And ban diesel and petrol straight away with exemption to haulage and farming. Force everyone to PHEV hybrid by carrot and stick and then incentivise BEV further. PHEV still better than the ICE. So PHEV would be an excellent intermediary step towards BEV transition to the smoothen out the transition.

liamog

McGiver wrote: »

Likelihood of fire / explosion, which is a disadvantage of Li-ion battery with a liquid electrolyte, has nothing to do with battery age. It's caused by a) cell defect, b) physical insult or c) incorrect charging or combination of the three.

Now hang on a minute, we should be seeing massive numbers of spontaneously exploding EVs as they hit turtle mode in that case

McGiver

liamog wrote: »

Now hang on a minute, we should be seeing massive numbers of spontaneously exploding EVs as they hit turtle mode in that case

Oh yeah big time, have you seen the "leafs
" burning each autumn?

Autumn leaf fires

Well I didn't want to go to too much of a detail....

Physical insult resulting in damaging the separator between the cathode and the anode in the cell

tom_tarbucket

Hi.

If you have a 24kw leaf with the 3.3 onboard charger.......and you charge the car from the 22kw esb public charger via your own cable.........is there any advantage in have a 32 amp cable over a 16 amp?

i.e. Will the 32 amp cable allow quicker charging for above scenario?

Gumbo

tom_tarbucket wrote: »

Hi.

If you have a 24kw leaf with the 3.3 onboard charger.......and you charge the car from the 22kw esb public charger via your own cable.........is there any advantage in have a 32 amp cable over a 16 amp?

i.e. Will the 32 amp cable allow quicker charging for above scenario?

You can only take on 3.3 kw so no, no advantage I believe.
The chademo will give you the fast charge only.

tom_tarbucket

kceire wrote: »

You can only take on 3.3 kw so no, no advantage I believe.
The chademo will give you the fast charge only.

Thanks.
I know the Chademo port and scenario. Was just wondering about the other scenario.

McGiver

tom_tarbucket wrote: »

Thanks.
I know the Chademo port and scenario. Was just wondering about the other scenario.

Future proofing. All current cars are 7.7 kW AC or more. Makes sense to install 32A ( 32A*240V=7680W) charger...

marklazarcovic

I see a Zoe 40 commercial van on DD for 25 k ,new, could be very handy as a commute/runabout with good range. Didn't know they came in that guise.

tom_tarbucket

kceire wrote: »

You can only take on 3.3 kw so no, no advantage I believe.
The chademo will give you the fast charge only.

Grand. So essentially with a 3.3 leaf, you will not charge any quicker from a 22kw esb charger with a 32 amp cable?

I.e. the same speed charging is achieved with a 16 amp cable.

McGiver

tom_tarbucket wrote:

Grand. So essentially with a 3.3 leaf, you will not charge any quicker from a 22kw esb charger with a 32 amp cable?

Correct. You won't, it can only take <16A.

tom_tarbucket wrote:

I.e. the same speed charging is achieved with a 16 amp cable.

Correct. The charger in the car limits it to <16A.

Sorry, I thought you were asking about a charger, 32A is better - thinking ahead.

Cable definitely 16A.

tom_tarbucket

McGiver wrote: »

Correct. You won't, it can only take <16A.

Correct. The charger in the car limits it to <16A.

Sorry, I thought you were asking about a charger, 32A is better - thinking ahead.

Cable definitely 16A.

Thanks. No, just asking about the actual cable

I get all of your post except the last sentence.

McGiver

tom_tarbucket wrote:

I get all of your post except the last sentence.

32A and 16A cable makes no difference for Leaf with 3.3 kW charger, because it restricts the current to less than 16A anyway. So it's pointless getting the 32A cable.

Black_Knight

So it's pointless getting the 32A cable.

Unless future proofing

liamog

A 32A Type 1 to Type 2 cable for the leaf isn't even really future proof.
Upgrading to anything other than 6.6 kW 30kWh will require a new cable anyway.

tom_tarbucket

liamog wrote: »

A 32A Type 1 to Type 2 cable for the leaf isn't even really future proof.
Upgrading to anything other than 6.6 kW 30kWh will require a new cable anyway.

Ok. Thanks. Good input.

tom_tarbucket

2014 24 kw leaf

One week ago via leaf spy, status of health was 87.41%. Prior to this, the car was not driven much. Used a small bit but not too much.

One week later it’s 89.26%.

Is this normal?

charlieIRL

marklazarcovic wrote: »

I see a Zoe 40 commercial van on DD for 25 k ,new, could be very handy as a commute/runabout with good range. Didn't know they came in that guise.

The one we have was the first in the country and a test for renault!! Very handy for what we need it

[Deleted User]

Not exactly a random EV thought, more like an "off on a tangent EV thought".

Now that EV manufacturers have more or less solved (or reduced the deterioration considerably) the battery longevity issue by using intelligent battery management systems, when can we expect those ideas to be incorporated into other fields, for example laptop battery management for example.

unkel

Deleted User wrote: »

Now that EV manufacturers have more or less solved (or reduced the deterioration considerably) the battery longevity issue by using intelligent battery management systems, when can we expect those ideas to be incorporated into other fields, for example laptop battery management for example.

BMS have always been in place for lithium batteries, even in the most humble of devices like a €10 power bank, a €10 torch, a €15 power tool battery and a €20 laptop battery

[Deleted User]

unkel wrote: »

BMS have always been in place for lithium batteries, even in the most humble of devices like a €10 power bank, a €10 torch, a €15 power tool battery and a €20 laptop battery

Yes, I know that, What I was referring to was the intelligent charging/discharging software that prolongs a batteries life by avoiding charging above 80% and discharging below 20%.

Black_Knight

Forum is going to need something like the "bad parking pics" thread for "shiddy EV drivers pics".
Tipped down to Dungarvan today, needed some charge before the trip back home so I called into their slow chargers in town. Pulled in beside a goDungarvan.ie leaf which was already fully charged on the slow charger. Had a look on the new ESB map, and it says they plugged in at 5.35pm. Well it's 11.30am when I pulled in, so at best they're there since yesterday evening.

I plugged in, busied myself for a few hours and returned to my car. Leaf still plugged in.

Leaf popped into my head there just now, and checking ESBs map, it's still occupied since 5.35pm. So at least 26 hours parking for free and blocking a charging bay.

So much for "GoDungarvan" being about "smarter travel".