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Brexit discussion thread XII (Please read OP before posting)

ancapailldorcha

This is the twelfth incarnation of our Brexit discussion thread.

I appreciate that the end of Brexit is or may be in sight (insofar as one can be certain) but please bear the following in mind before posting:

Insults directed at popular figures are not acceptable in this forum
Please do not post memes, videos or comedy links here
Please do not be uncivil to other posters
Please use the report function to alert the mods when necessary
Discussion of Sinn Féin's longstanding policy of abstention from Westminster is not suitable for this thread. Posts on this subject may be deleted

Previous thread is here:

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2058016732

United Ireland thread:

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2058014553

Scottish Independence thread:

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2058023269

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stefanovich

lawred2 wrote: »

Labour is toxic is based on what exactly?

Antisemitism. Extreme far left ideology. They'll destroy the economy.

Tell me how

lawred2 wrote: »

Labour is toxic is based on what exactly?

Well, based on the evidence of the last couple of years.
I think that they had enough talent in house to present a viable alternative but they have seriously under performed for the vast majority of time in opposition.
A good chunk of this, I feel due to the ineptitude of Corbyn who wants to leave the EU as much as many within the Tories it seems.

There was a period there where it actually looked like Labour top brass were glad of being called anti-semetic because it distracted from the 'call a motion of no confidence in the government' dilly dallying which they were going on with.

The UK needs a strong decisive government, many in Ireland want that to be a remain favouring government but even if they do move towards remain, they have a lot of problems to fix, their economy is shook already from Brexit and the Brexiteers will not go quietly. If they do leave, it's going to be x number of years of just blaming either the Tories or the EU for the issues which are going to continue.

stefanovich

theological wrote: »

Looking at more regional polls from YouGov on a regional basis. It looks like Johnson has taken a lead from Labour even in traditional Labour heartlands like Yorkshire and the Humber and the North West and tightened their leads over Labour in the West Midlands, the South East, the South West and the East of England. They are 1 point behind Labour in Wales. Brexit party vote splitting is only likely to cause them issues in the North East.

It doesn't look like England in particular has changed it's mind very much since 2016 and it looks like Corbyn has a huge job on his hands to claw this lead back.

Johnson and the Brexit Party will dominate this election. Brexit will happen. Those trying to undermine democracy will get their just deserts.

listermint

I've zero trust in yougovs polling part of an axis of Tory wealthy power. The data cannot be trusted

lawred2

stefanovich wrote: »

Antisemitism. Extreme far left ideology. They'll destroy the economy.

All one liners...

As for the economy, that argument holds no water whatsoever. Brexit is the ultimate act of economic self destruction.

theological

listermint wrote: »

I've zero trust in yougovs polling part of an axis of Tory wealthy power. The data cannot be trusted

I guess all of the other polling agencies pointing to a big Tory lead over Labour "cannot be trusted" either?

Tell me how

stefanovich wrote: »

Johnson and the Brexit Party will dominate this election. Brexit will happen. Those trying to undermine democracy will get their just deserts.

Vote Leave campaign broke the law.
Leave.EU broke the law.
Leave campaign lied with NHS money on Bus message.
May tried to get her deal passed 3 times.
Johnson tried to get a similar deal passed.
This is the 3rd election in 4 years when fixed term parliament act suggested only one every 5 years.

What type of democracy are you trying to uphold?

listermint

theological wrote: »

I guess all of the other polling agencies pointing to a big Tory lead over Labour "cannot be trusted" either?

I haven't seen any polls today. Frankly I'd be surprised if they concurred with your sentiment given the **** show of the Tories in the last week.

Wanderer78

stefanovich wrote:

Antisemitism. Extreme far left ideology. They'll destroy the economy.

Labour aren't extreme far left, they're just an average centre left party. The Tories have little or no interest in the average brit, implementing the same crappy policies such as austerity, as they have been for decades

theological

listermint wrote: »

I haven't seen any polls today. Frankly I'd be surprised if they concurred with your sentiment given the **** show of the Tories in the last week.

Please have a look at this poll tracker.

37 to 26 at the latest count on November 6th. Unless you think there's been a massive nosedive within 3 days. In which case please evidence this.

Akrasia

Leroy42 wrote: »

I thought yesterdays finance launches were very telling. Labour came under massive attack in 2017 for their plans to increase investment, and even now they are being portrayed as somehow giving money away.

Yet the Tories yesterday announced a massive increase in public spending, totally the opposite of what they have been preaching for the last number of years. As Beth Rigby pointed out, it shows that Labour has won the economic argument. The Tories have finally, after so many wasted years, agreed that they need to spend to stimulate.

That in itself is a pretty big admission that far from the party of economics, the Tories are simply slow learners

Or else they’re just lying like they always do. Like when they Promised to build 200k affordable houses in 2015 and actually built zero

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/nov/05/tories-broke-pledge-on-starter-homes-in-2015-manifesto-report-says

An Claidheamh

stefanovich wrote: »

Johnson and the Brexit Party will dominate this election. Brexit will happen. Those trying to undermine democracy will get their just deserts.

Labour must really be incompetent if they are trying to undermine democracy by partaking in a democratic election, called by a Tory government, caused by a Tory party Bill and Tory party infighting .......

Brexit party and Tories are simply not capable of a hard Brexit, they can't govern without EU help, election won't change this.

McGiver

Tell me how wrote: »

Vote Leave campaign broke the law.
Leave.EU broke the law.
Leave campaign lied with NHS money on Bus message.
Leave campaign colluded with the Russians
May tried to get her deal passed 3 times.
Johnson tried to get a similar deal passed.
This is the 3rd election in 4 years when fixed term parliament act suggested only one every 5 years.

Corrected it for you.

Igotadose

Leroy42 wrote: »

I thought yesterdays finance launches were very telling. Labour came under massive attack in 2017 for their plans to increase investment, and even now they are being portrayed as somehow giving money away.

Yet the Tories yesterday announced a massive increase in public spending, totally the opposite of what they have been preaching for the last number of years. As Beth Rigby pointed out, it shows that Labour has won the economic argument. The Tories have finally, after so many wasted years, agreed that they need to spend to stimulate.

That in itself is a pretty big admission that far from the party of economics, the Tories are simply slow learners

Trumpism. (Well, maybe Republicanism in the US.) Blame your opponent for what you do.

MPFGLB

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Be better for the Tories to win (or get a slim majority) in the election.

They will then make a dogs dinner of it anyway and I really don't think anyone wants to win this election with such a poisoned chalice before them.

Better to let the Tories run with it and see how difficult it really is on the ground. But maybe I need to get real too. Elections are all about winning, but Labour is toxic, just a little bitteen more than the Tories though.

It has been a mad roller coaster ride for sure, let's see what happens. Will be interesting no matter what. Lots of chatter about tactical voting and what not. But really who would want to take the UK through the next few years of mayhem. Dunno what's for the best.

This election hasn't taken off yet

What the media and others are forgetting are the 48% who are more 54% now...the silent majority who are not pinned down to any party

What I feel will happen is that Lib Dems, SNP and Welsh party will hold the balance of power which will probably mean a coalition government with Labour

I think the Brexit party wont win any seats as most brexiters will now vote Tories

I find all the anti antisemitism regurgitated about Jeremy Corbyn is clap trap ..Yes there have been extreme members in the Labour party but there are extreme Islamophobics in the Tory party and the BBC never bring that up

However I do find Jeremy Corbyn not fit to be PM based on his leadership skills and economic policies

Just that he had to meet Diane Abbott ( a useless waste of space ) and John McDonnell ( who I quite like) to decide Brexit policy at his allotment to avoid Seamus Milne says it all really ..not a leader
And yes the spending proposals are almost double the Tories and look like fiscal disaster ahead

But then there is Bojo, a man so bent on power he would sell his own granny for the chance to stay at number 10 and whose key policy adviser and real governor of the country believes in anarchy and lies as justifiable approaches to government

What i clear from Bojo and Corbyn is no PM will allow a no deal Brexit ...even the stupidest know that way spells economic disaster

So it Bojo's deal or another referendum of some sort ( either Labour's one or a revised new referendum )and this is democracy where the people decide when there is no way ahead

all the threats in the world do not change this

Bannasidhe

stefanovich wrote: »

Antisemitism. Extreme far left ideology. They'll destroy the economy.

As opposed to:
Islamophobia. Extreme far right ideology. Intent on driving the economy off a cliff.

One is apparently toxic.
The other is not.
Strange times indeed.

Joe_ Public

Bannasidhe wrote: »

As opposed to:
Islamophobia. Extreme far right ideology. Intent on driving the economy off a cliff.

One is apparently toxic.
The other is not.
Strange times indeed.

Yes, this is it. As is pointed out throughout the following exchange, replace matt hancocks disgraceful remark with a labour politician saying similar about anti semitism and just imagine the outcry and inevitable resignation to follow.

https://twitter.com/SayeedaWarsi/status/1193097665283801088?s=20

Bannasidhe

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Yes, this is it. As is pointed out throughout the following exchange, replace matt hancocks disgraceful remark with a labour politician saying similar about anti semitism and just imagine the outcry and inevitable resignation to follow.

If one were a cynic (:P) one might posit that there is a narrative at play here where antisemitism = 'bad'/ islamophobia = 'good'.

While Corbyn's attempts to deal with AS within the LP may have been a bit hamfisted - there have been zero attempts to address Islamophobia with the CP bar a token we'll look at that later 'promise'.
It's almost as if the CP don't really think being a bit adverse to Muslims is necessarily a bad thing - or perhaps, they believe being seen as a bit Islamophobic will play well with a demographic they are trying to please.

The YouGov survey for Channel 4’s Dispatches in September suggested 56% of the Tory membership thought Islam was “generally a threat” to the British way of life and just 22% thought it was “generally compatible”.

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/michael-gove-pledges-inquiry-into-tory-islamophobia-before-end-of-the-year_uk_5dc131b9e4b0bedb2d522e8d?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAGaaNXjnDRDgyAcsVXymVj-Jc5qejS6VRufoDTBcvmLdHA1Enu-9cLYzUPlg5z2oPH6wvrLtG1e6-aVa2Fi01PqH-cew4kfuBjCVjvNVRTcXaETzR8xp9KfG5j43c8tbX9mC6yWoKPfGk2Jlem-bBVjy8bxvuyk4qGtBDBqWWsxp

[Deleted User]

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Yes, this is it. As is pointed out throughout the following exchange, replace matt hancocks disgraceful remark with a labour politician saying similar about anti semitism and just imagine the outcry and inevitable resignation to follow.

https://twitter.com/SayeedaWarsi/status/1193097665283801088?s=20

Don’t agree with why Hancock said but

“Whitesplaining”

Ugh

Tell me how

Interesting tweet here from someone who has previously been a pretty strong advocate for Brexit.

https://twitter.com/JohnCleese/status/1192999560148344832?s=19

PopePalpatine

Akrasia wrote: »

Or else they’re just lying like they always do. Like when they Promised to build 200k affordable houses in 2015 and actually built zero

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/nov/05/tories-broke-pledge-on-starter-homes-in-2015-manifesto-report-says

Then Leave won and that pledge played second fiddle to tax loopholes.

Letwin_Larry

when a moderate like David Blunkett says this then you know there's something rotten at the heart of the Lab party. Thuggery & Antisemitism.

“The behaviour of the hard left within the Labour party – the antisemitism, the thuggery, the irrational views on security and international issues, and the lack of realisation that you have to embrace a big tent of people in order to win – certainly makes me despair.

“But it also makes the likelihood of an all-out Labour majority in this general election extraordinarily slim. The political landscape right now is completely different to what the hard-left would have you believe.

“We are in a 1983 situation here, not a 2017 one – with not only the Lib Dems and the Greens, but the Brexit party, the Tories and the SNP all seriously vying for traditional Labour votes.”

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/nov/08/david-blunkett-says-he-despairs-about-labour-and-antisemitism

LuckyLloyd

Yeah Tony Blair is gonna romp back to power any minute now

Strazdas

Batrachotox wrote: »

Don’t agree with why Hancock said but

“Whitesplaining”

Ugh

No, I think she has a point. A privileged white man telling a Muslim woman she has Islamophobia wrong and is not taking a nuanced approach to it really grates on the ears : she says she has been working in race relations for 30 years.

CelticRambler

Tell me how wrote: »

Interesting tweet here from someone who has previously been a pretty strong advocate for Brexit.[/url]

An advocate for Brexit? :eek:

John Cleese has been anti everything that contributed to Brexit for at least 30 years. He was an advocate for PR way back in the last century, and was disgusted that the Tories campaigned against the AV referendum. He's been scathing of the way the country has been run in general, and the willingness of the British public to swallow any old gumpf they're fed by the media.

To the extent that he decided (last year) to give up his British residency and move to a functioning democracy.

Professor Moriarty

CelticRambler wrote: »

An advocate for Brexit? :eek:

John Cleese has been anti everything that contributed to Brexit for at least 30 years. He was an advocate for PR way back in the last century, and was disgusted that the Tories campaigned against the AV referendum. He's been scathing of the way the country has been run in general, and the willingness of the British public to swallow any old gumpf they're fed by the media.

To the extent that he decided (last year) to give up his British residency and move to a functioning democracy.

I dunno. Here is John Cleese in July 2018:

"I don't think Brexit was a mistake, myself. I'm rather delighted that all these forecasts of doom and destruction have turned out, at this point, not to have been real. I don't want to be ruled by Brussels bureaucrats who want to create a super state. I was pro-Brexit for that reason. If I had three words to sum up why we had to get out of Europe, they would be: Jean-Claude Juncker. He's a little jumped up Luxembúgger who's never really had a proper job."

Here is a tweet by Cleese from 2016 about the EU:

“It should give up the Euro, introduce accountability and hang Jean-Claude Juncker,”

quokula

CelticRambler wrote: »

An advocate for Brexit? :eek:

John Cleese has been anti everything that contributed to Brexit for at least 30 years. He was an advocate for PR way back in the last century, and was disgusted that the Tories campaigned against the AV referendum. He's been scathing of the way the country has been run in general, and the willingness of the British public to swallow any old gumpf they're fed by the media.

To the extent that he decided (last year) to give up his British residency and move to a functioning democracy.

While a lot of that is true in the past, in more recent times he’s made xenophobic comments, been pro-Brexit and and wasn’t his complaint when leaving Britain that the politicians hadn’t delivered Brexit yet?

His changing views as he got older are like a living embodiment of UK demographics.

CelticRambler

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

I dunno. Here is John Cleese in July 2018:

Yeah - two years after the referendum! 'Tis always shaky ground, selectively quoting a comedian's words in the aftermath of an episode of national idiocy!

I would be prepared to revise my opinion if anyone can link to a (non-redacted) interview with him before the referendum took place.

Professor Moriarty

CelticRambler wrote: »

Yeah - two years after the referendum! 'Tis always shaky ground, selectively quoting a comedian's words in the aftermath of an episode of national idiocy!

I would be prepared to revise my opinion if anyone can link to a (non-redacted) interview with him before the referendum took place.

His tweet from 2016 was nasty. He actually seems to be unwell based on some of the stuff he says in recent years.

Joe_ Public

Letwin_Larry wrote: »

when a moderate like David Blunkett says this then you know there's something rotten at the heart of the Lab party. Thuggery & Antisemitism.
“The behaviour of the hard left within the Labour party – the antisemitism, the thuggery, the irrational views on security and international issues, and the lack of realisation that you have to embrace a big tent of people in order to win – certainly makes me despair.

“But it also makes the likelihood of an all-out Labour majority in this general election extraordinarily slim. The political landscape right now is completely different to what the hard-left would have you believe.

“We are in a 1983 situation here, not a 2017 one – with not only the Lib Dems and the Greens, but the Brexit party, the Tories and the SNP all seriously vying for traditional Labour votes.”

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/nov/08/david-blunkett-says-he-despairs-about-labour-and-antisemitism

David Blunkett "writing in the telegraph." Maybe its just me but i wouldnt say there is anything "moderate" about a labour member using a right wing mouthpiece to attack his own party, however righteous he believes his cause.

Its also interesting that he talks about the "big tent" when, whatever else you can level at him, it is corbyn who has been the one trying to plough a centre furrow on brexit and getting grief from all sides for it. Also, you can be critical of how momentum and the left operate, but when the centre/right of the party pretty much set about corbyns removal almost as soon as his elevation, i think they have to accept at least some of the blame for how things are going.

Truth is but for corbyn, quite a number of those moderate mps who tried to undermine him wouldnt be mps in the first place. Not that they'll thank him for that of course!