Strazdas wrote: » If you join a club of any description and agree to abide by their rules, you are giving up sovereignty to a certain extent. The whole UK sovereignty argument is an utter nonsense : if they wanted to be truly 'sovereign', then they couldn't even sign a free trade deal with someone, as it involves compromises and not being fully in charge of what is happening.
FrancieBrady wrote: » We didn't 'hand' anything, we elected to be in it for our own benefit. Same as the UK did.
Joe_ Public wrote: » The aptly named James BROKENshire, currently being picked up in little pieces off the newsnight studio floor, after a monstering from Emily Maitless. There's nothing in the Tom Watson thing, likely personal reasons and will be forgotten about by next week. The real story is the conservative party and the utter calamitous state of it and the chaos we're inevitably going to witness over the course of this campaign.
Deleted User wrote: » Yes, just the club shouldn't have been formed. That's foregoing any independence that countries have hitherto held. Ireland fought for 800 years to become "independent" from the UK parliament and sovereign, only to hand many of those law-making powers to Brussels and a directly un-removeable EU president. It's almost comical. Lying is okay sometimes yes, I just find the EU means quite disgusting.
Deleted User wrote: » And many electorates have voted for dictatorships; that irony exists throughout history, but it doesn't make it right. Of course, the EU is not a direct dictatorship, but that's not the point I'm attempting to make.
prawnsambo wrote: » Well FoM means that they can move elsewhere in Europe for work if they can't get it at home. That option isn't open after brexit.
BonnieSituation wrote: » Lie. Were we coerced to join and stay within the structures of the EEC/EC/EU? Seems like independence to me. That's part of being in a club eh? Following the rules? But you said lying was okay sometimes?
[Deleted User] wrote: » Somewhat independent yes, but not completely independent.
We both know that Ireland can only act in accordance with the EU, not the other way around.
Political euphemism for a "lie".
Letwin_Larry wrote: » no you asked how it would be so damning to his electoral campaign. again for the 3rd time i repeat. I never did. if you cannot recall accurately your own postings, then perhaps it's expecting too much to accurately interpret others.
Imreoir2 wrote: » The population of the UK is around 67 million. Lets take countries with a populaition within 20 million of the UK, say from 55 million to 85 million. From largest to smallest population within that range you have Congo, Germany, Turkey, Iran, Thiland, UK, France, Italy, South Africa, Tanzania and Myanmar. Four of those countries are in the EU, the other seven are not. Your argument really holds no water and now you are just retreating to the tired old empty slogans of the Brexit referendum which really adds nothing to this thread.
Imreoir2 wrote: » There are several countries in the world with populations similar to the UK, who are entirely free of the EU and are able to follow their own independant trade policy to their hearts content. The population of the UK is around 67 million. Lets take countries with a populaition within 20 million of the UK, say from 55 million to 85 million. From largest to smallest population within that range you have Congo, Germany, Turkey, Iran, Thiland, UK, France, Italy, South Africa, Tanzania and Myanmar. Four of those countries are in the EU, the other seven are not. Why do you think the UK will do any better than its peers, population wise, outside the EU?
Deleted User wrote: » I didn't suggest that the UK should adopt a Singaporean model; what I am saying is that if small countries can succeed, I have every confidence that the UK - the 5th largest economy in the world - can succeed just as much, if not more. This doom and gloom is horrifying. The idea the UK will sink into the depths of economic oblivion is a symptom of Project Fear Mark II.
Deleted User wrote: » Political euphemism for a "lie".
Deleted User wrote: » Yes, it probably does. True, Switzerland has closer alignment with the EU, but I mentioned that already in my original post; that it's possible to be outside the primary political structures of the EU, but within a form of the economic zone and be successful. That's my whole point. I stand by that comment and I appreciate your resuscitation of my post.
CelticRambler wrote: » Are you saying that France is not an independent nation? Or Cyprus? Or Hungary? Or Ireland? :eek:
A Dub in Glasgo wrote: » 'Once in a generation' is a figure of speech.
boring accountant wrote: » Tragically, this is not the case. Europe, by that I mean European companies, are very far behind the curve. Completely missed the boat on Internet 2.0. Missing out on 5G. Likely to be 3rd best or maybe a distant second in electric vehicles. A lot of this comes down to domestic politics and entrenched national interest. Take for example the reaction to todays announcement of a depositary banking union. It looks like its implementation will hinge upon the support of Merkel's coalition partners. Not an effective way to run a union of 27 member states. Europe is still great at producing the inventions of the 20th century, but the 21st century is passing us by.
CelticRambler wrote: » You disagree, fair enough. So give us an example of a few democratic controls that the UK will (re)gain after Brexit.
schmittel wrote: » You could argue that access to the Freedom of Movement of goods, capital, services and labour don't mean a whole lot to them either.
Deleted User wrote: » Scotland has every chance to be successful. What I dislike is that Ms. Sturgeon claimed that the vote was "once in a generation", but then went on to argue about "material" difference; basically, a propaganda term that applies to pretty much any circumstance. It's clever, I have to give that to her. It's not up to me whether Scotland should remain or leave. Just don't call it "independence" if you transfer legislative powers from Westminster to Brussels.
hotmail.com wrote: » Have you been to parts of the North of England? The 5th largest economy means nothing to them.
Deleted User wrote: » It's not up to me whether Scotland should remain or leave. Just don't call it "independence" if you transfer legislative powers from Westminster to Brussels.
Letwin_Larry wrote: » no you asked how it would be so damning to his electoral campaign. again for the 3rd time i repeat. I never did.
Deleted User wrote: » Yes, Europhilics will claim that the UK gains no democratic controls by leaving the EU. I disagree.
CelticRambler wrote: » Switzerland? :pac: The same Switzerland that is closely aligned with EU rules and regulations, accepts the principles of Free Movement, is part of the Schengen Area ? Anyway, if you stand by this belief, would you then agree that the anti-independence campaigners (i.e. the Tory Government) were wrong to tell the Scots that they were doomed to economic failure if they tried to go it alone? Or to put it another way, would you accept that an Independent Scotland has at least as much of a chance at becoming a great economic power as a deeply fractured UK?
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