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Dublin - Metrolink (Swords to Charlemont only)

marno21

As the other thread is reaching its limit of 10,000 posts, and in light of the announcement of the preferred route, this is the new thread for discussing the Metrolink scheme.

Old thread here: https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055849587

This is for discussing the current active plan for a Metro between Swords and Charlemont. Only. Discussion of the planned Metro South connection to the Green Line will be in this thread:

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057972047

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machaseh

ncounties wrote: »

I still think it is absolute lunacy that Metrolink isn't connecting with the Northern Line from the offset.

The amount of people using it coming from Swords/Airport will be much greater than the amount of people using it from Belfast/Dundalk/Drogheda/Malahide, as those can already get the DART/train/commuter rail into town anyway.

Not saying a connection is unnecessary but it wouldn't be a priority now.

ncounties

machaseh wrote: »

The amount of people using it coming from Swords/Airport will be much greater than the amount of people using it from Belfast/Dundalk/Drogheda/Malahide, as those can already get the DART/train/commuter rail into town anyway.

Not saying a connection is unnecessary but it wouldn't be a priority now.

It's not about the current users of commuter rail availing of it, it's about attracting more passengers to public transport, and taking car journeys off the road.

If you live North of Donabate, but work in Swords, the Airport, Northwood Business Park, or at DCU you could use the commuter rail (or in time the Dart) to Donabate, and transfer to the Metro for the rest of your journey, whilst at the moment your only real option is a car.

Equally, if you live North of Donabate and you want to fly out of the airport (particularly for holidays), this connection would make public transport an easier, and potentially cheaper option when long term parking is factored in.

machaseh

ncounties wrote: »

It's not about the current users of commuter rail availing of it, it's about attracting more passengers to public transport, and taking car journeys off the road.

If you live North of Donabate, but work in Swords, the Airport, Northwood Business Park, or at DCU you could use the commuter rail (or in time the Dart) to Donabate, and transfer to the Metro for the rest of your journey, whilst at the moment your only real option is a car.

At the moment you can take a commuter rail to Malahide and then get onto the 102 bus which connects you to Swords and the Airport.
Indeed, you'd need to transfer twice in order to reach anything south of the airport which is a pain, but that relation is definitely not big enough to warrant a rail connection; rather a direct bus would be more realistic.

Equally, if you live North of Donabate and you want to fly out of the airport (particularly for holidays), this connection would make public transport an easier, and potentially cheaper option when long term parking is factored in.

Again, this connection is not busy enough to warrant a rail connection; rather, a direct bus would be better.

Pete_Cavan

There is no space for a Metrolink station at Donabate, the only possibility for an interchange is R&L. For anyone from Malahide south, it would be quicker to go directly to the airport than travel further north by train and back south to get to the airport.

Zebra3

Connecting ML to the northern line pretty much brings it to an end.

The line should end with a possibility for future expansion in decades to come.

MrAbyss

ncounties wrote: »

I still think it is absolute lunacy that Metrolink isn't connecting with the Northern Line from the offset.

All commuters north of the connection would transfer for the city. Less congestion on the DART south of there. With a bit of imagination a seriously useful interchange.

MrAbyss

Zebra3 wrote: »

Connecting ML to the northern line pretty much brings it to an end.

The line should end with a possibility for future expansion in decades to come.

What a bizarre comment - is it going into the Irish Sea?

ncounties

Zebra3 wrote: »

Connecting ML to the northern line pretty much brings it to an end.

The line should end with a possibility for future expansion in decades to come.

Ergh... and the problem with this would be? As many have mentioned [hoped] here, MetroLink will prove the concept of metro systems to the Irish population, and spark interest in building further lines.

This extension, if not built, would jostle for funding from these other potential schemes. We should build things right first time. Concentration can then be turned to other completely new schemes.

Zebra3

MrAbyss wrote: »

What a bizarre comment - is it going into the Irish Sea?

What a bizarre comment. Of course not.

ncounties wrote: »

Ergh... and the problem with this would be? As many have mentioned [hoped] here, MetroLink will prove the concept of metro systems to the Irish population, and spark interest in building further lines.

This extension, if not built, would jostle for funding from these other potential schemes. We should build things right first time. Concentration can then be turned to other completely new schemes.

I don’t think you know what point I’m making.

I’d prefer the northern end of the ML line to have the development potential of the Copenhagen finger plan.

I'd assume that the Northern end of the Metrolink line will separate out in two or three directions. One of which would connect with the Northern line, the other two opening up North Dublin to further development.

Grandeeod

Zebra3 wrote: »

Connecting ML to the northern line pretty much brings it to an end.

The line should end with a possibility for future expansion in decades to come.

It doesn't at all. The connection to the Northern line could become a branch within further expansion from the Swords area. But I see your point and how politicians may view a possible ML ending in Donabate or Rush/Lusk as the "end of the line/potential.

But at this point its not going to join the Northern line and is in the seriously perilous stages of development anyway.

cgcsb

I wouldn't worry about connecting it to the DART just yet. The space between Swords and Donebate is rural which isn't conducive to metro development. If it was going to happen a new mega suburb between the two should also be built. Anyway after ML is done new lines crossing central Dublin are the order of the day not endless suburban extensions like the luas.

MrAbyss

cgcsb wrote: »

I wouldn't worry about connecting it to the DART just yet. The space between Swords and Donebate is rural which isn't conducive to metro development. If it was going to happen a new mega suburb between the two should also be built. Anyway after ML is done new lines crossing central Dublin are the order of the day not endless suburban extensions like the luas.

Right, like the mantra of 'The Luas beyond Sandyford only serves farmland.' we had to deal ith back in the day.

Do you have any idea how many London Underground and New York subway lines were originally extended into rural hinterlands with only a few cows and sheep at the time. Cities grow. The Amsterdam Metro Line 51 went into a total wasteland when built. Look at it now.

cgcsb

That's great building for the future and all but when it comes to resource allocation we have this probable in Ireland where no substantial infrastructure improvements happen for decades. Result the existing urban area has very poor services. Extensions to the green line are a perfect example of what I mean. A slow on street tram extended into distant suburbs/countryside becomes heavily congested. Shock horror. This is of course because the suburban extensions were added without a care in the world as to where the capacity in more central areas would come from to service them.

machaseh

Honestly with the current housing crisis and all I'd love to see metrolink extended further north to Rush and Lusk with an enormous suburb the size of Tallaght being built, consisting of medium density housing (say up to 6 stories apartment buildings in walking distance of the metro stations).

But this won't fill the pockets of the TD landlords as much sadly.

Zebra3

We need to build up in the city, where people actually want to live, before we build any more megasuburbs for a more car dependent lifestyle.

There's no two ways about it.

Building up for to house single young people will free up existing housing in the suburbs for families.

ncounties

Zebra3 wrote: »

We need to build up in the city, where people actually want to live, before we build any more megasuburbs for a more car dependent lifestyle.

There's no two ways about it.

Building up for to house single young people will free up existing housing in the suburbs for families.

Agreed, I was watching a show on Netflix recently, "Borderliners" (I highly recommend it), and it is based in Norway, and several scenes showed this development in Oslo. This should have been the very minimum height that all developments in the Docklands, and Spencer Dock etc. consisted off.

Shedite27

cgcsb wrote: »

I wouldn't worry about connecting it to the DART just yet. The space between Swords and Donebate is rural which isn't conducive to metro development. If it was going to happen a new mega suburb between the two should also be built. Anyway after ML is done new lines crossing central Dublin are the order of the day not endless suburban extensions like the luas.

I worked in the Transport Authority in Vancouver 10 years ago, their whole balance sheet was propped up by their Property Development department. They would buy the land from farmers in the equivalent of Donebate to Swords, then plan a Metro line through it, with the stops at land it already owns. The land would then be so valuable that they would sell that at profit, which paid for the metro extension through it.

The country gets new housing developed, on a metro line, at zero cost to the state. The transport authority gets a new suite of customers all who use the metro line every day.

I would hope that they do have plans for further Northern extensions and would look to retain the routes from being built on.

But I think they are correct to just focus on getting the Metrolink built first and then they can look to easily extend it. Much as they have extended the Luas lines. Such extensions are usually relatively cheap and easy.

prunudo

bk wrote: »

I would hope that they do have plans for further Northern extensions and would look to retain the routes from being built on.

But I think they are correct to just focus on getting the Metrolink built first and then they can look to easily extend it. Much as they have extended the Luas lines. Such extensions are usually relatively cheap and easy.

True, and as much as it pains me to see our obsession with half measured infrastructure, we really do need to just get on with building what has been planned so far. But it is important that once the current plan gets the go ahead the team are kept on and reassigned to planning other routes and options.

loyatemu

how much spare capacity is there likely to be for extensions? Connecting to the Dart at Donabate is a no-brainer IMO, but extending it into the countryside for the sake of opening up development land would be bad planning (not that that's deterred us in the past).

loyatemu wrote: »

how much spare capacity is there likely to be for extensions? Connecting to the Dart at Donabate is a no-brainer IMO, but extending it into the countryside for the sake of opening up development land would be bad planning (not that that's deterred us in the past).

Well the northern Metro line will have vastly more capacity then the Luas green line. Given that it is Metro, fully segregated and option for future lengthening to 90m's and substantial increases to frequency possible on it (specially if fully automated, driverless trains). It should have plenty of capacity for future growth in demand.

I would hope that any development into North Dublin will be highly planned. A high density commuter towns built around the Metro stations with tall apartment buildings built near the station.

Also I think people think this area of North Dublin is far from the city. It really isn't.

Cherrywood is about 14km from Dublin. Swords is just over 12.5km from Dublin. So the area North of Swords is much the same distance from Dublin as the area between Cheerywood and Bray, which is likely to see future development once the Luas is extended there.

To put it another way, Lusk is 20km from Dublin. Bray is 19km from Dublin and Greystones is 26km. You have a great of development potential in North Dublin between Swords and Lusk/Donabate.

Zebra3

Shedite27 wrote: »

I worked in the Transport Authority in Vancouver 10 years ago, their whole balance sheet was propped up by their Property Development department. They would buy the land from farmers in the equivalent of Donebate to Swords, then plan a Metro line through it, with the stops at land it already owns. The land would then be so valuable that they would sell that at profit, which paid for the metro extension through it.

The country gets new housing developed, on a metro line, at zero cost to the state. The transport authority gets a new suite of customers all who use the metro line every day.

Can't compare to our superior system.

Political party A or B announces metro through land owned by their supporters who subsequently "donate" ten grand to the aforementioned party in the interests of "supporting democracy".

Ditto for toll contracts.

webwayz

loyatemu wrote: »

how much spare capacity is there likely to be for extensions? Connecting to the Dart at Donabate is a no-brainer IMO, but extending it into the countryside for the sake of opening up development land would be bad planning (not that that's deterred us in the past).

Linking the Metro North / Metrolink with the northern line opens up so many possible options, it serves the airport for anyone on the railway line, surely Belfast to Dublin Airport in under 2 hours! It would take traffic off the roads, allowing connected commuting routes to DCU, the Mater etc. especially with the electrification of the Northern line

gjim

webwayz wrote: »

Linking the Metro North / Metrolink with the northern line opens up so many possible options, it serves the airport for anyone on the railway line, surely Belfast to Dublin Airport in under 2 hours! It would take traffic off the roads, allowing connected commuting routes to DCU, the Mater etc. especially with the electrification of the Northern line

The problem is that it could create a Green Luas effect.

I expect the south bound metro to be pretty full by the time it gets past the M50 at peak time as it is. Funnelling more passengers on to it at those times at the northern end will just displace passengers closer to the city.

Priority should be given to providing more capacity into and out of the city which can only be done by building more heavy rail/metro/tram lines that traverse the centre of the city. Adding extensions to the ends of existing lines can offer benefits like you point out but they don't address the fundamental capacity issues in the most critical part of the system - getting people in and out of town.

webwayz wrote: »

surely Belfast to Dublin Airport in under 2 hours!

Just to point out, you already have three coach companies offering Belfast to Dublin Airport in under 2 hours, pretty much every 30 minutes 24/7.

Having to get a train and then change to Metro to get to the airport seems less convenient then that and tends not to operate early enough for early morning flights.

Though obviously such a connection would be useful from other points along the Northern line not served by such good coach services.

Last Stop

I really don’t see the benefit of extending to R+L in the short/medium term. By all means make a provision for it and mark an alignment on development plans but it would be a massive retrospective step.
R+L is 20km from the city centre. That’s a serious commute. Even with metrolink you’re looking at over 30min on the train. While it’s appreciated that many people do longer commutes, it’s not something we should be encouraging when we have so much undeveloped land closer to the city.

Metros are not designed for long distance travel, they are designed for high capacity frequent stop travel.
R+L would be 7km from the current end of Metrolink. That would be a crazy distance for a metro to travel without a stop.
In terms of speed metros are designed to travel at speeds of around 80kmph. A DART does 100kmph and the enterprise should be doing more.

In terms of cost, you’re looking at around €300m mark which would pay for a rail link between Clongriffin and the airport which would facilitate enterprise services from Belfast and also potential DART services.

Last Stop wrote: »

I really don’t see the benefit of extending to R+L in the short/medium term. By all means make a provision for it and mark an alignment on development plans but it would be a massive retrospective step.
R+L is 20km from the city centre. That’s a serious commute.

And Bray is 19km, lots of people commuting from there and Greystones (26km) for decades now.

Commuter towns serviced by Metro's out to about 20km would be quiet common in similar sized European cities.

Last Stop wrote: »

Even with metrolink you’re looking at over 30min on the train. While it’s appreciated that many people do longer commutes, it’s not something we should be encouraging when we have so much undeveloped land closer to the city.

I agree we should be focused on closer to the city to start with, which is why I'm happy with the current Metrolink plans and for it to develop further in future when needs be.

And plenty of people on the much less comfortable Luas now for 30 minutes!

Last Stop wrote: »

Metros are not designed for long distance travel, they are designed for high capacity frequent stop travel.

20km isn't long distance, it is quiet normal distance for Metros.

Last Stop wrote: »

R+L would be 7km from the current end of Metrolink. That would be a crazy distance for a metro to travel without a stop.

No one is saying that! What I'm saying is build multiple stations north of Swords towards R+L and build new high high density town centers around the stations.

Do it gradually. Start out by going just 1km North of Swords, plenty of green fields there and build a new station and apartment buildings there. You are just 15km from Dublin now or the same distance as Cherrywood is to Dublin.

Are you against building Cherrywood? Then why would this be any different?

Once this is filled up build another station at 16km out and then 17km, out, etc.

16 to 19km out would cover the same distance as the proposed Luas extension to Bray and the new developments that would be built along this line. Are you against the idea of the Luas being extended to Bray?!

I think people take for granted that the area of South Dublin out as far as Bray will be developed and filled in. But North Dublin (and West Dublin too) is the same distance out and has even greater opportunities for development.

Folks need to stop just looking South.

Last Stop wrote: »

In terms of speed metros are designed to travel at speeds of around 80kmph. A DART does 100kmph and the enterprise should be doing more.

Nothing stopping a Metro from being specced at 100km. Though if you think DART goes at 100km or even 80km, then LOL I've a bridge to sell you!

Last Stop wrote: »

In terms of cost, you’re looking at around €300m mark which would pay for a rail link between Clongriffin and the airport which would facilitate enterprise services from Belfast and also potential DART services.

Well that would be a horrible waste of money. Spending 300m going North would open up the space for 10's of thousands of new homes. A line to Clongriffin gains you very little as it is under the Dublin Airport approach path so you can't build homes there.

Connecting Metrolink to the Northern line would make more sense as it gives you a similar connectivity, while also opening up lots of land for development.

Last Stop

bk wrote: »

And Bray is 19km, lots of people commuting from there and Greystones (26km) for decades now.

Commuter towns serviced by Metro's out to about 20km would be quiet common in similar sized European cities.

I agree we should be focused on closer to the city to start with, which is why I'm happy with the current Metrolink plans and for it to develop further in future when needs be.

And plenty of people on the much less comfortable Luas now for 30 minutes!

Which is why we shouldn’t be encouraging it

No one is saying that! What I'm saying is build multiple stations north of Swords towards R+L and build new high high density town centers around the stations.

Do it gradually. Start out by going just 1km North of Swords, plenty of green fields there and build a new station and apartment buildings there. You are just 15km from Dublin now or the same distance as Cherrywood is to Dublin.

Are you against building Cherrywood? Then why would this be any different?

Once this is filled up build another station at 16km out and then 17km, out, etc.

16 to 19km out would cover the same distance as the proposed Luas extension to Bray and the new developments that would be built along this line. Are you against the idea of the Luas being extended to Bray?!

The original post suggested going the full distance to the northern line. What you’re talking about now is completely different.

I would be against cherrywood and Luas to Bray if there was acres of undeveloped land closer to the city. Swords had plenty of development space for example as does Ballymun.

I think people take for granted that the area of South Dublin out as far as Bray will be developed and filled in. But North Dublin (and West Dublin too) is the same distance out and has even greater opportunities for development.

Folks need to stop just looking South.

We need to look at increasing densities rather than expanding the city

Nothing stopping a Metro from being specced at 100km. Though if you think DART goes at 100km or even 80km, then LOL I've a bridge to sell you!

Most metro systems are designed for 80km. Why would you go against industry standards?

Between R+L and Donabate, a DART could easily do 100km

Well that would be a horrible waste of money. Spending 300m going North would open up the space for 10's of thousands of new homes. A line to Clongriffin gains you very little as it is under the Dublin Airport approach path so you can't build homes there.

Connecting Metrolink to the Northern line would make more sense as it gives you a similar connectivity, while also opening up lots of land for development.

Why would it be a horrible waste of money. No houses but a heavy rail connection to the airport meaning you could run trains from anywhere in the country offering far greater connectivity!!!
That would be a great investment.

Pete_Cavan

A new town could be developed at Blakes Cross but there isn't space for multiple towns between Swords and Lusk.

The Clongriffin Airport link isn't going to happen for the foreseeable future and probably never. The Northern line is already congested and any space freed up is needed for additional DART/commuter services, there is no room for airport services.